What do you prefer? The more battle orientated style of Z or the adventuristic aspect of DB?

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

She please. Thanks.

As for people considering the question a flawed one, personally I consider Dragon Ball the way it starts out to be one a lot of people most remember about it that helps separate it from Z. And even when it does start becoming Z-like with it's focus on fights later on, one cannot forget that time frame where it had that adventure bit of it. I mean, even during Red Ribbon army there were bits of adventure still there, there was still a journey taking place. It's quite different than merely train on King Kai's planet, Hyperbolic Time Chamber, etc and the fights were more built up instead of always directly getting to that destination from the start.

So if you ask me, I still stand by the question asked. I think perhaps people are taking my view a bit too black and white when it wasn't intended to be.

[MasenkoHA]

She please. Thanks.

My apologies. Fixed my previous post.

As for people considering the question a flawed one, personally I consider Dragon Ball the way it starts out to be one a lot of people most remember about it that helps separate it from Z.

You’re right most people do see Dragon Ball as the adventure series. That doesn’t make it correct. Not when 4 of the 6 arcs in the original Dragon Ball focus on fighting.

It’s unfortunate that you are on the money that most people see Dragon Ball’s first series as it was in the first arc and it’s really to that series detriment

And even when it does start becoming Z-like with it's focus on fights later on, one cannot forget that time frame where it had that adventure bit of it. I mean, even during Red Ribbon army there were bits of adventure still there, there was still a journey taking place. It's quite different than merely train on King Kai's planet, Hyperbolic Time Chamber, etc and the fights were more built up instead of always directly getting to that destination from the start.

Sure, but that’s really the last time that happens. Once the Red Ribbon story ends we’re not even quite at the halfway point of the first series. And there was a tournament arc sandwiched between the two “search across the globe for the dragon balls” stories

So if you ask me, I still stand by the question asked. I think perhaps people are taking my view a bit too black and white when it wasn't intended to be.

So I guess my question is how would I answer your question? I like the story better as a battle oriented series (which you specify as Z) but I like Dragon Ball better than Z.

[KBABZ]

Sure, but that’s really the last time that happens. Once the Red Ribbon story ends we’re not even quite at the halfway point of the first series. And there was a tournament arc sandwiched between the two “search across the globe for the dragon balls” stories

While the Daimao Arc is quite dark and dramatic, especially for its time period, there is a portion after the Tambourine fight where Goku spends time with Yajirobe that feels like it could have been put somewhere in the RRA arc for how jolly it is.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

@MasenkoHA

I'll be quite honest. It seems like it would take a whole other topic and kind of drawn out discussion for people to properly convey their views here and I gotta admit, I'm feeling rather lazy at the moment so since there seems to be a disagreement on that I'd say...

Compare even the battle arcs of both series, Ball and Z. Which kind of focus do you prefer. Though that might not work if you don't see a difference there... hmm.

I don't know to be quite honest, I wasn't suspecting there to be a disagreement with the mere premise. Adventure vs Battle orientated arcs?

[BWri]

DB does action probably better than anyone, so I'll have to say that. DB's adventure elements aren't as fully realized unfortunately. You could say that leaves the adventure side of things with the most potential, but I feel that we'd get the most out of that by following a much weaker character.

I wouldn't mind if the series mixed the two together more. I think it can if the anime ever gets to the Moro stuff. They can definitely flesh out the space faring adventures of various characters.

[Kinokima]

Besides the very early arcs of Dragon Ball the series as whole has always been battle orientated. It did not start with Z

I disagree, aside from the Tournaments the story was much more focused on adventure and travel, and the Pilaf Arc has barely any fighting in it (Goku wouldn't love martial arts until he trained with Roshi). Fights occurred along the way, but it wasn't until Daimao that Toriyama started the whole Villain Arc thing and battles took much more precedence as the core behaviour in the story. Compare the RRA Arc to Namek to see what the difference is.

As for the topic itself, I prefer the adventure style because it focuses far more on character interactions and development, but I acknowledge that it isn't really feasible in a modern Dragon Ball story anymore. Pilaf and RRA worked really well because while Goku was strong, he wasn't invincible and it still took him a while to get anywhere, so the idea of traveling on foot meant something, especially encountering people along the way. You can't really do that in a world where Goku is crashing through the god ceiling because you can no longer just introduce new, stronger characters on a whim, you have to immediately have some sort of in-universe justification for why they can be a challenge to him.

Maybe your perspective is the Dragon Ball anime which has filler and draws things out but if you read the manga it’s not very adventure orientated after the first arc. The Red Ribbon arc is still very much battle shounen. In fact the whole having to defeat different bosses as you go up to the next level is very typical of battle shounen.


Goku not being super strong yet doesn’t make it not battle shounen. That is the forumula most battle shounen start with. The main hero is usually not over powered at first but through training and trials the characters get gets stronger. They also gain new powers and abilities along the way. Goku not being able to fly but getting the Nimbus Cloud fits in with the Battle Shounen formula. And of course Goku eventually does learn to fly.

As for villains those also progress as the story goes on.

[ABED]

DB intertwines both. There are adventurous quests in DB, but they include big battles.

[sangofe]

I'm going to have to say the adventure aspect. And there are times where this has occurred in Z such as Gohan and Krillin on Namek, but for the most part there really isn't adventuring. DB and GT had these aspects which I quite enjoyed, I'd even argue the first half of GT is the best part and when it starts trying to replicate Z is where I lose all interest.

How about you?

I really like DB, but also Dbz, and db super. I like Dbgt, but not where it tries to copy DB because it does it badly.

[MasenkoHA]

Maybe your perspective is the Dragon Ball anime which has filler and draws things out but if you read the manga it’s not very adventure orientated after the first arc. The Red Ribbon arc is still very much battle shounen. In fact the whole having to defeat different bosses as you go up to the next level is very typical of battle shounen.

The Red Ribbon is definitely more about the action but the adventure aspect is still there. It’s the last time “search across the world for the dragon balls “ is given any kind of major focus and The Pirate Treasure stuff and Goku ending up in Penguin village.

The Red Ribbon arc is really the last time “this life is one big treasure island”’applies

Goku not being super strong yet doesn’t make it not battle shounen. That is the forumula most battle shounen start with. The main hero is usually not over powered at first but through training and trials the characters get gets stronger. They also gain new powers and abilities along the way. Goku not being able to fly but getting the Nimbus Cloud fits in with the Battle Shounen formula. And of course Goku eventually does learn to fly.

Goku has a flying cloud because his literary ancestor and namesake had a flying cloud. Not because of some “battle shonen” formula. Once Toriyama moved away from Journey to the West as the main inspiration that stuff got gradually phased out with the kinto un being the last thing to go.

Toriyama wasn’t following any sort of battle shonen formula he was taking from everything from cheesy 70s kung fu flicks to more modern Hollywood films like Terminator and old Universal studios monster movies.

As for villains those also progress as the story goes on.

Any sort of good vs evil story with new villains tends to have the new villain is stronger than the last. It’s not even close to being a shonen thing.

[jjgp1112]

The Namek arc still revolved around the Dragon Balls, too - just in a more tactical, fight-oriented way. Wholeheartedly agree with the rest of the post, though.

I wish anime fans would stop acting like children's anime invented the basic tenants of action stories.

[Kinokima]

Maybe your perspective is the Dragon Ball anime which has filler and draws things out but if you read the manga it’s not very adventure orientated after the first arc. The Red Ribbon arc is still very much battle shounen. In fact the whole having to defeat different bosses as you go up to the next level is very typical of battle shounen.

The Red Ribbon is definitely more about the action but the adventure aspect is still there. It’s the last time “search across the world for the dragon balls “ is given any kind of major focus and The Pirate Treasure stuff and Goku ending up in Penguin village.

The Red Ribbon arc is really the last time “this life is one big treasure island”’applies

Goku not being super strong yet doesn’t make it not battle shounen. That is the forumula most battle shounen start with. The main hero is usually not over powered at first but through training and trials the characters get gets stronger. They also gain new powers and abilities along the way. Goku not being able to fly but getting the Nimbus Cloud fits in with the Battle Shounen formula. And of course Goku eventually does learn to fly.

Goku has a flying cloud because his literary ancestor and namesake had a flying cloud. Not because of some “battle shonen” formula. Once Toriyama moved away from Journey to the West as the main inspiration that stuff got gradually phased out with the kinto un being the last thing to go.

Toriyama wasn’t following any sort of battle shonen formula he was taking from everything from cheesy 70s kung fu flicks to more modern Hollywood films like Terminator and old Universal studios monster movies.

As for villains those also progress as the story goes on.

Any sort of good vs evil story with new villains tends to have the new villain is stronger than the last. It’s not even close to being a shonen thing.

I never said any of these things were invented by Battle Shounen or ONLY applied to Battle Shounen. just that all these things are typical of Shounen action stories and not adventure stories. Many of the things in Dragon Ball influenced later Shounen action stories. And I think we are all familiar with similar stories outside of manga and anime. I was just trying to argue why I never really felt Dragon Ball was much of an adventure story and like Z was always more battle orientated.

Dragon Ball’s tie to Hong Kong action films also further supports my argument that Dragon Ball was always more action orientated than adventure focused after the first arc. Toriyama did not really stick to the Journey of the West parallels for long.


A Shounen manga that is more adventure focused would be something like Full Metal Alchemist which while there is a big bad does not have things like the main character getting progressively stronger by training or each arc fighting stronger and stronger opponents.


Also when I say Battle Shounen I am talking about a specific genre not Shounen which is a demographic and extremely broad.

[KBABZ]

Maybe your perspective is the Dragon Ball anime which has filler and draws things out but if you read the manga it’s not very adventure orientated after the first arc. The Red Ribbon arc is still very much battle shounen. In fact the whole having to defeat different bosses as you go up to the next level is very typical of battle shounen.

I've read the manga, thank you. I had to for my T1C project, so I'm well aware of what's in both and what's only in the anime.

Obviously Dragon Ball has fighting in it throughout, starting with the 21st TB it becomes a core focus of every storyline. But I still stand by the fact that the early Dragon Ball period has a big focus on an adventurous, whimsical, light-hearted tone. Yeah, you do have characters like Silver and Blue and Tao and so-on who Goku frequently fights against, but it's in the context of a grander adventure that is why Goku is even there, which is why Muscle Tower simply feels like "the bit with a LOT of fighting" that doesn't define the entire arc on its own. It's also worth noting that aside from Blue, Tao and Metallitron, literally everyone Goku meets during this adventure is of no threat to him whatsoever until he gets to Baba's fighters in the finale, which is important because he's the only main character for huge stretches of time.

Compare this to the Namek Arc. Because it's also a Villain Arc, there's much more emphasis placed on "we can't do this because strong guys are around", and a lot of time is put into emphasizing how utterly terrifying the bad guys are and how the good guys are FUCKED. It's a completely different tone from the earlier material, there's deliberately no sense of the characters having fun (characters having fun becomes much less common once Daimao shows up). Not to mention that by the time Frieza steps onto the board, the Dragon Balls are no longer the A Plot and vanish for a huge chunk of time so that the emphasis is placed purely on fighting Frieza.

[Kinokima]

Maybe your perspective is the Dragon Ball anime which has filler and draws things out but if you read the manga it’s not very adventure orientated after the first arc. The Red Ribbon arc is still very much battle shounen. In fact the whole having to defeat different bosses as you go up to the next level is very typical of battle shounen.

I've read the manga, thank you. I had to for my T1C project, so I'm well aware of what's in both and what's only in the anime.

Obviously Dragon Ball has fighting in it throughout, starting with the 21st TB it becomes a core focus of every storyline. But I still stand by the fact that the early Dragon Ball period has a big focus on an adventurous, whimsical, light-hearted tone. Yeah, you do have characters like Silver and Blue and Tao and so-on who Goku frequently fights against, but it's in the context of a grander adventure that is why Goku is even there, which is why Muscle Tower simply feels like "the bit with a LOT of fighting" that doesn't define the entire arc on its own. It's also worth noting that aside from Blue, Tao and Metallitron, literally everyone Goku meets during this adventure is of no threat to him whatsoever until he gets to Baba's fighters in the finale, which is important because he's the only main character for huge stretches of time.

Compare this to the Namek Arc. Because it's also a Villain Arc, there's much more emphasis placed on "we can't do this because strong guys are around", and a lot of time is put into emphasizing how utterly terrifying the bad guys are and how the good guys are FUCKED. It's a completely different tone from the earlier material, there's deliberately no sense of the characters having fun (characters having fun becomes much less common once Daimao shows up). Not to mention that by the time Frieza steps onto the board, the Dragon Balls are no longer the A Plot and vanish for a huge chunk of time so that the emphasis is placed purely on fighting Frieza.

Well we are going to have to agree to disagree then. I am not saying Dragon Ball doesn’t have a lighter more whimsical tone although I feel it does gradually get a bit more “dramatic” as the stakes rise but that to me doesn’t make it primarily an adventure story .

One Piece I would also still consider primarily a battle shounen but even that has more of an adventure aspect to me where the world building and travel is central to the plot. I just never felt much of that from Dragon Ball.

And I brought up the anime because I only read the Dragon Ball manga fully so I was just wondering if maybe the slower pace of the anime gives it a more adventurous feel that just is not really there for me in the manga.

[LoganForkHands73]

The best sense of adventure after the first arc was definitely in the middle portion of the Red Ribbon Army arc, with Goku, Bulma and Kuririn on the run from General Blue and they end up in some underwater pirate cove. It's bonkers and feels completely unrelated to the main conflict against the RRA, but it's utterly infectious. But after that, we get Taopaipai and the adventurous aspect more or less grinds to a halt aside from Goku venturing up Karin Tower.

All that said, I think Dragon Ball has perfected the "battle-oriented side" to a platinum standard. As others have argued in this thread, there is no hard line defining the "adventurous side of DB" and the "battle-oriented side of Z". The action wasn't exclusive to the Z era. I guess you can say the stakes went up and the tone got darker, but that all started escalating back with Piccolo Daimao and never really stopped. The adventurous side comes and goes in relatively short bursts.

[KBABZ]

And I brought up the anime because I only read the Dragon Ball manga fully so I was just wondering if maybe the slower pace of the anime gives it a more adventurous feel that just is not really there for me in the manga.

Yeah they are quite different in tone! Goku's a bit more of a frieldier chap, and of course there's the big emphasis on insert songs that probably have a more fun and jolly tone than Toriyama intended with the Son Goku Song, Dragon Ball Legend, The Blue Travellers, Hunt for Mr. Dream, and Riding on a Cloud is My First Love.

[Arteaga4K]

Somewhere in the middle like the 22nd Tournament/Piccolo, Saiyan, and Namek/Freeza arcs were which imo was the peak of the whole franchise. Primarily battle heavy with some adventure elements sprinkled in it.

[JulieYBM]

This thread is reminding me how I wish we'd get a new animated project set during the five year gap before the Saiyan invasion. Heck, it could introduce a new enemy and then bring that enemy back for the post-Granola era, too! Something were the 'rules' of the Saiyan arc and forward were not set in stone.

[Kinokima]

That’s another thing everyone says you like Z more for the fights but while I prefer Z for specific reasons I actually much prefer the fights in Dragon Ball. They rely more on skill than power ups so they are a lot more fun to me.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

That’s another thing everyone says you like Z more for the fights but while I prefer Z for specific reasons I actually much prefer the fights in Dragon Ball. They rely more on skill than power ups so they are a lot more fun to me.

I don't think the DB era fights were any less dependant on "power" than the Z-era fights but they were absolutely much more inventive and willing to go with weirder finishes. There's actually plenty of strategy throughout Z, it just gets lost in the powerups and almost cookie cutter resolutions. Which is probably why DB fights come across as more skillful. There really aren't very many instances "Got big beam? Get bigger beam! Biggest beam? That's best beam!" in DB.

This thread is reminding me how I wish we'd get a new animated project set during the five year gap before the Saiyan invasion. Heck, it could introduce a new enemy and then bring that enemy back for the post-Granola era, too! Something were the 'rules' of the Saiyan arc and forward were not set in stone.

Forget new villains! There should be a gag oriented, comedic short series that's just Oolong and Puar visiting the South Transformation Kindergarten for like a class reunion or something. Please, I just want Earth to be weird again even if it's just for a couple episodes/chapter ;_;

[KBABZ]

That’s another thing everyone says you like Z more for the fights but while I prefer Z for specific reasons I actually much prefer the fights in Dragon Ball. They rely more on skill than power ups so they are a lot more fun to me.

I don't think the DB era fights were any less dependant on "power" than the Z-era fights but they were absolutely much more inventive and willing to go with weirder finishes. There's actually plenty of strategy throughout Z, it just gets lost in the powerups and almost cookie cutter resolutions. Which is probably why DB fights come across as more skillful. There really aren't very many instances "Got big beam? Get bigger beam! Biggest beam? That's best beam!" in DB.

I think in particular the fights generally had a much more diverse array of moves than Z tended to do. By the time we get to Namek, we've entered the realm of the generic ki attack that pretty much everybody uses, and any new special attacks (like Nappa and Recoome's mouth beams, the Galick Gun, the Big Bang Attack, Final Flash, etc) are basically Kamehamehas with nothing to set them apart aside from "IT POWERFUL!".

Comparatively, the original Dragon Ball felt much more inventive. Ki attacks like the Kamehameha and Dodon-pa are energy-sapping special moves you only use in a tight spot, and characters like Jackie Chun, Tenshinhan and 21st TB Goku would pull of a wide and diverse range of moves that typically don't use ki in the same ways, if at all. Aside from Buu's candy beam that's pretty much absent from the Z material, so the focus is much more on "My Battle Power is higher than yours!" even when the numerical aspect stops being used.