How terrible was Vegeta pre-Android Saga

[Anonymous Friend]

Buu Saga Vegeta talks about wanting to go back to the way he was.

Now, unless I'm forgetting things, the only things he actively kills are the arlians, those working for Freeza, and that namekians village. I assume anyone he wants dead, and is capable of killing, gets killed. I'm also assuming he was seriously trying to defeat the group on earth but just to worn out. But on Namek, before the Ginyu showed up, he had oppurtunity to take care of Krillin and Gohan, but chose not too. And, for the time when he was the strongest person on earth, by a wide margin, he did cause any trouble with anyone.

What do yall think about how all of this played out? Do you think it was a deliberate think Toriyama did for his character in terms of development?

[Majin Buu]

You gloss over it, but his killing innocent Namekians just because they had stuff he wanted is pretty damn heinous; especially considering they never got revived.

[jjgp1112]

He was pretty damn terrible. Dafuq?

Killing innocent Namekians and orchestrating the deaths of Goku's friends isn't some shit to push aside. Him not killing Krillin and Gohan wasn't some early signs of goodness in his heart. Vegeta is evil, but he also has self-control and doesn't do evil shit for evil's sake when it doesn't benefit him. Vegeta was so high on himself after seemingly getting all seven Dragon Balls that he just didn't think those twerps were significant anymore.

On Earth after the Frieza saga, he had no desire for immortality anymore and was waiting for Goku to come back. He had no actual point of conflict with the Earthlings, ergo he had no reason to cause trouble.

[MasenkoHA]

Arlia wasn’t a one off thing it was an example of “business as usual” for Vegeta. He’s responsible for the mass genocide of multiple planets. Wipe them out and sell them for profit or annihilate the entire planet if it has no market value.

The slaughter a Namekian village for a dragon ball has also been said.


He is every bit as evil and malicious as Freeza was the only difference between the two is Freeza had way more power. His entire goal in the Saiyan and Namek arc was become immortal so he can eventually be powerful enough to usurp Freeza and take over as “Emperor of the Universe”

He only formed an alliance with Kuririn and Gohan because of the shared enemy thing. Had he gotten his wish he likely would have killed them after defeating Freeza.

His goal and focus just simply changed from “become the new big evil tyrant of the universe” to “goddamn this nobody low class Saiyan has surpassed me and become a Super Saiyan I need to get stronger than him”


He really didn’t become “not that bad” until the end of the Cell saga.

[Koitsukai]

In fiction, you don't need to show every little evil deed of a person to show how evil they are. If they are good people, you don't need to show them going to donate blood to 50 different children's hospitals. Doing it once suffices and conveys it to the audience. So seeing only one genocide, one village being decimated, or killing only one of his most loyal allies, tells us he is bad to the bone.

Seeing him sparing someone (but still knocking them out just for the fun of it) or making alliances towards a greater goal broadens the character, making him not a one-note being, like Kid Buu for instance. Same goes for Freeza during the ToP, he is not less evil because he makes an alliance and doesn't betray everybody the moment they turn their backs.

Vegeta waiting for Goku's return while not killing everybody, also doesn't make him less evil, because he meant to kill Goku and probably everybody on Earth afterwards, or enslave them, which would be pretty evil as well. Freeza wanted to welcome Goku with an empty planet but that's a different character with different circumstances.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

But on Namek, before the Ginyu showed up, he had oppurtunity to take care of Krillin and Gohan, but chose not too. And, for the time when he was the strongest person on earth, by a wide margin, he did cause any trouble with anyone.

What do yall think about how all of this played out? Do you think it was a deliberate think Toriyama did for his character in terms of development?

Vegeta was capricious. If you weren't an active obstacle he pretty went wherever the mood took him. Sometimes that meant he'd ignore you completely. Other times it meant he'd knee you in gut before moving on to his actual goals. But Vegeta liked committing genocide. It was something that gave him joy. It's just that once the real resistance was over he treated the left overs like a game.

You gloss over it, but his killing innocent Namekians just because they had stuff he wanted is pretty damn heinous; especially considering they never got revived.

It's easy to gloss over! The series itself does it. And when you compare Vegeta's business first approach to mass slaughter to the rest of DB's villains he ends up looking like the least bad of bunch (at least if you exclude villains like Pilaf). There's always the chance Vegeta will spare ppl once he has what he wants. Cell, Freeza, Piccolo Daimao, heck even Buu are much more thorough in their murder.

[Majin Buu]

It's easy to gloss over! The series itself does it.

And that makes it worth downplaying why? He still murdered innocent people.

And when you compare Vegeta's business first approach to mass slaughter to the rest of DB's villains he ends up looking like the least bad of bunch (at least if you exclude villains like Pilaf).

You're splitting hairs here. He's still mass slaughtering people just like all those other villains. Him having "business" reasons for doing so doesn't make him any better. It just makes him a sociopath.

[MasenkoHA]

It's easy to gloss over! The series itself does it. And when you compare Vegeta's business first approach to mass slaughter to the rest of DB's villains he ends up looking like the least bad of bunch (at least if you exclude villains like Pilaf). There's always the chance Vegeta will spare ppl once he has what he wants. Cell, Freeza, Piccolo Daimao, heck even Buu are much more thorough in their murder.

Piccolo Daimao, while evil incarnate did love his children and was upset and vengeful when they were killed. Vegeta during the Android arc didn’t give a shit if Bulma and baby Trunks were killed and it’s only after character development sets in does he care when Future Trunks is killed and bothers to gets involved with main timeline Trunks upbringing and have some sort of relationship with Bulma.

And then’s there’s the whole killing Nappa and enjoying it thing. No family ties but dude at least seemed to be something akin to Vegeta’s nanny when he was growing up.


There’s nothing Freeza does that is worse than Vegeta, Freeza just has far more power and an entire army of minions.

With Boo it kind of depends on which Boo. Kid Boo? Sure. Fat Boo, definitely not. And Super Boo wasn’t really any worse than Saiyan/Namek era Vegeta

[MyVisionity]

He was probably the least evil of the bunch.

His actions on Namek were terrible, but entertaining. You can't help but still like the guy. That's probably why he's the kind of character you can turn to the other side. Evil, but not too evil. It's also helpful that Vegeta spares Kuririn and Gohan and fights by their side. Those things go a long way in turning him into one of the "good" guys.

I don't think Vegeta joining up with the Z-Senshi and settling down on Earth after the Freeza saga is anything unusual or strange. Yeah, he used to be a murderer, so what? That kind of thing only means but so much in the Dragon World. They're all a bunch of misfits anyhow.

[PurestEvil]

Considering how Genocide was a part of Vegeta's business under Freeza and how he found pride in it, alongside him killing his closest friend and a bunch of innocent Namekians, I would say he was pretty fuckin evil. It was because of his humiliation on Earth and Namek that he had a chance of redemption.

[jjgp1112]

He was probably the least evil of the bunch.

His actions on Namek were terrible, but entertaining. You can't help but still like the guy. That's probably why he's the kind of character you can turn to the other side. Evil, but not too evil. It's also helpful that Vegeta spares Kuririn and Gohan and fights by their side. Those things go a long way in turning him into one of the "good" guys.

I don't think Vegeta joining up with the Z-Senshi and settling down on Earth after the Freeza saga is anything unusual or strange. Yeah, he used to be a murderer, so what? That kind of thing only means but so much in the Dragon World. They're all a bunch of misfits anyhow.

Him being entertaining doesn't make him any less evil. Just charismatic.

Vegeta was a tiger shark trying to take out the great white shark so he could terrorize the ocean instead.

[MyVisionity]

Charisma goes a long way in making a villain into a non-villain. It's easier to look the other way with a mass murderer if the character is likable and has a certain charm.

I still don't buy that Vegeta was as evil as Freeza. Yeah, maybe in some areas, but in others not quite. I also don't think he would have ended up like Freeza had he gained immortality and more power. I think much of it was just tough guy talk. But even if, Freeza was unique in his evil I believe.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

It's easy to gloss over! The series itself does it.

And that makes it worth downplaying why? He still murdered innocent people.

I'm not downplaying or splitting hairs. I'm pointing out that if the show chooses not to dwell on something, the audience probably isn't going to either. How many people care that Yamcha used to be a murderous highwayman? Or that Oolong used to kidnap girls? I'm not saying they're anywhere near as bad as Vegeta but they're examples of the same phenomenom. The audience will generally care about the things they're told to care about.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'm not downplaying or splitting hairs. I'm pointing out that if the show chooses not to dwell on something, the audience probably isn't going to either. How many people care that Yamcha used to be a murderous highwayman? Or that Oolong used to kidnap girls? I'm not saying they're anywhere near as bad as Vegeta but they're examples of the same phenomenom. The audience will generally care about the things they're told to care about.

You're right that there is a certain amount of framing obfuscation a narrative can do to either push or downplay certain acts. Yamcha is certainly a good example. The story does not dwell on any of the crimes he committed? Murderous highwayman? Maybe... We really don't know. He talks a good game, but we sure as heck never see him commit murder. And you're right that Dragon Ball does not dwell on Vegeta's murderous actions... after a point... after it becomes inconvenient for the story to do so because it conflicts with the redemption narrative. But it certainly does dwell on those actions at the time, when Vegeta is supposed to be a terrifying threat everyone is fighting against or hiding from. It plays those actions up a lot. We see him cave in a grandpa's skull. By that point, it's a little too late to backtrack. Vegeta is monstrously evil, and it's a bit disingenuous to claim the story doesn't dwell on it after it invests so much time in building Vegeta up as murderous evil incarnate for dramatic effect.

[DBZAOTA482]

Pretty darn terrible if you ask me. In fact, if not for his deathbed speech to Goku, I would say he wasn't much better than Freeza.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I mean, before the eventual albeit slow change happened inside him around that point Vegeta was basically as barbaric as most Saiyans were by nature. He just happened to be in a higher elite position that most within the Saiyan hierarchy with being the late king's blood and all. Leading up to his rebellion on Namek he was stuck under Freeza's iron fist serving him and had been since Planet Vegeta was destroyed by the latter when he was still a young boy, now i don't believe he was in quite the same league of evil as Freeza who is by and large a cold hearted remorseless tyrant through and through. It can indeed be argued however that Vegeta didn't really start to turn away from his evil nature until after his death at Freeza's hands and eventual further humiliation in the Cell arc. To a lesser degree it's sort of a similar story similar with Piccolo, who was originally more or less a younger reincarnation of the late Daimao and the same malevolent being in a new form effectively but it's suggested even early on at some point he isn't as evil as the father who spawned him. That said, he didn't take quite as long to go from bad to good which culminates with his sacrificing himself to save Gohan.

So yeah he was no doubt a bad guy, and his reformation did indeed come but it took a lot of time and many situations to fully cement itself.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

And you're right that Dragon Ball does not dwell on Vegeta's murderous actions... after a point... after it becomes inconvenient for the story to do so because it conflicts with the redemption narrative. But it certainly does dwell on those actions at the time, when Vegeta is supposed to be a terrifying threat everyone is fighting against or hiding from. It plays those actions up a lot. We see him cave in a grandpa's skull. By that point, it's a little too late to backtrack. Vegeta is monstrously evil, and it's a bit disingenuous to claim the story doesn't dwell on it after it invests so much time in building Vegeta up as murderous evil incarnate for dramatic effect.

I'm not trying to be disingenuous. It's just... Vegeta's getting invited to cookouts the moment the Freeza Arc wraps up. Even Buffy had the decency to stick a control chip in Spike's brain before they tried that. It's so brazen I can't fault fans for going along with it. Toriyama might as well have had Vegeta wear a sign that says "Don't worry about that other stuff. It's ok to root for me now."

[MyVisionity]

I don't think it's brazen at all. Vegeta wasn't some irredeemable monster. Smashing Grampas isn't some Satanic act. He was evil, but they know this guy by then. Let him hang around if he wants. As far as I'm concerned, he proved himself in the Freeza arc. As long as he's not actively doing evil, he checks out ok.

[PurestEvil]

I don't think it's brazen at all. Vegeta wasn't some irredeemable monster. Smashing Grampas isn't some Satanic act. He was evil, but they know this guy by then. Let him hang around if he wants. As far as I'm concerned, he proved himself in the Freeza arc. As long as he's not actively doing evil, he checks out ok.

That, and the fact that the characters are not in positions to protest Vegeta without potentially being beaten into tender steak.

[Kinokima]

Considering how Genocide was a part of Vegeta's business under Freeza and how he found pride in it, alongside him killing his closest friend and a bunch of innocent Namekians, I would say he was pretty fuckin evil. It was because of his humiliation on Earth and Namek that he had a chance of redemption.

I am not going to argue that Vegeta wasn’t evil. He was and said so himself. He was cold and ruthless

However Nappa was NOT Vegeta’s friend. I am not really sure where people get this. If anything Nappa was like a servant to Vegeta. There was a clear difference in power status. Nappa was Vegeta’s underling and you could even tell Nappa was a bit afraid of Vegeta. They were not friends

Vegeta did not have a single person he genuinely cared about until Bulma and Trunks.