How terrible was Vegeta pre-Android Saga

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

I don't think it's brazen at all. Vegeta wasn't some irredeemable monster. Smashing Grampas isn't some Satanic act. He was evil, but they know this guy by then. Let him hang around if he wants. As far as I'm concerned, he proved himself in the Freeza arc. As long as he's not actively doing evil, he checks out ok.

Vegeta checks out except for all the times he's not going to! rip to the Cell and Buu Arcs

[WittyUsername]

Pre-redemption Vegeta is pretty terrible. Out of all the reformed villains, his redemption is perhaps the most difficult to justify. Even Majin Boo had the excuse of essentially being an easily manipulated child who was just doing what he was told to do. In fact, even by Saiyan standards, it’s implied that Vegeta is pretty evil. Not only is he the one who shoots down the idea of reviving Raditz, but he also shocks Nappa when he casually murders a Saibaman (which is weird, because you’d think Nappa would already be aware of how ruthless Vegeta is). He also murders Nappa simply for being incapacitated, which Nappa clearly wasn’t expecting.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'm not trying to be disingenuous. It's just... Vegeta's getting invited to cookouts the moment the Freeza Arc wraps up. Even Buffy had the decency to stick a control chip in Spike's brain before they tried that. It's so brazen I can't fault fans for going along with it. Toriyama might as well have had Vegeta wear a sign that says "Don't worry about that other stuff. It's ok to root for me now."

You're totally right. It is completely brazen, and it makes very little sense. That's why I'm saying the story is more or less trying to have it both ways. It does dwell on those things, but only when it's convenient.

Vegeta wasn't some irredeemable monster. Smashing Grampas isn't some Satanic act.

Really? Really? You don't want to put any distance between those two statements? If murdering children and the elderly is no more than a little oopsie, I'm terrified to find out what you would consider to be irredeemable behavior.

[jjgp1112]

I don't think it's brazen at all. Vegeta wasn't some irredeemable monster. Smashing Grampas isn't some Satanic act. He was evil, but they know this guy by then. Let him hang around if he wants. As far as I'm concerned, he proved himself in the Freeza arc. As long as he's not actively doing evil, he checks out ok.

Vegeta checks out except for all the times he's not going to! rip to the Cell and Buu Arcs

Again, it's not that he checks out, he just behaves himself. He doesn't do evil shit for the sake of doing evil shit. When he has no goal in mind, he has no problem coexisting with everyone. He's a high-functioning sociopath. That means he sees no value in people's lives, so it's a good idea not to do anything to set off his murderous impulses, but it also means if he finds people aren't a threat or in his way he doesn't particularly care about them, and can even grow fond of them in the case of Bulma and Trunks (and he at least always seemed to tolerate Gohan after the Frieza stuff).

[MasenkoHA]

If Vegeta committing mass genocide most of his life isn’t bad I would like to know what is.

Dude definitely has a significantly higher body count than Cell or Daimao.


As far as Yamucha goes do we even know that he actually killed anyone? Robbed yes. Murdered....maybe? At any rate anything he did in the desert didn’t come within a fraction of being comparable to Vegeta

[jjgp1112]

Pre-redemption Vegeta is pretty terrible. Out of all the reformed villains, his redemption is perhaps the most difficult to justify. Even Majin Boo had the excuse of essentially being an easily manipulated child who was just doing what he was told to do. In fact, even by Saiyan standards, it’s implied that Vegeta is pretty evil. Not only is he the one who shoots down the idea of reviving Raditz, but he also shocks Nappa when he casually murders a Saibaman (which is weird, because you’d think Nappa would already be aware of how ruthless Vegeta is). He also murders Nappa simply for being incapacitated, which Nappa clearly wasn’t expecting.

And even Bardock finds EIGHT YEAR OLD Vegeta to be bad news and not the kind of person Raditz should partner up with. I think as Saiyan royalty, he had a naturally pompous and elitist attitude and was probably groomed to be especially more violent so he could set the gold standard for Saiyans.

On top of that, Frieza took a direct interest in Vegeta. Probably snuffed out any possibility of goodness in him to make him a perfect soldier.

[PurestEvil]

I am not going to argue that Vegeta wasn’t evil. He was and said so himself. He was cold and ruthless

However Nappa was NOT Vegeta’s friend. I am not really sure where people get this. If anything Nappa was like a servant to Vegeta. There was a clear difference in power status. Nappa was Vegeta’s underling and you could even tell Nappa was a bit afraid of Vegeta. They were not friends

Vegeta did not have a single person he genuinely cared about until Bulma and Trunks.

Okay, even if Nappa and Vegeta's relationship was not platonic, killing your servants is still a crummy thing to do.

[Kinokima]

I am not going to argue that Vegeta wasn’t evil. He was and said so himself. He was cold and ruthless

However Nappa was NOT Vegeta’s friend. I am not really sure where people get this. If anything Nappa was like a servant to Vegeta. There was a clear difference in power status. Nappa was Vegeta’s underling and you could even tell Nappa was a bit afraid of Vegeta. They were not friends

Vegeta did not have a single person he genuinely cared about until Bulma and Trunks.

Okay, even if Nappa and Vegeta's relationship was not platonic, killing your servants is still a crummy thing to do.

I don’t really disagree with you here. I am trying to point out Vegeta didn’t kill someone who cared about him but someone who feared him. It’s not your point that this was an evil thing to do that I disagree it’s the relationship dynamic between them I disagreed with.

I guess because I see this a lot in fanfiction and the relationship is even softened in games like Legends.

But for me there was no love of friendship between them. It was a relationship built on power and fear.

[WittyUsername]

I am not going to argue that Vegeta wasn’t evil. He was and said so himself. He was cold and ruthless

However Nappa was NOT Vegeta’s friend. I am not really sure where people get this. If anything Nappa was like a servant to Vegeta. There was a clear difference in power status. Nappa was Vegeta’s underling and you could even tell Nappa was a bit afraid of Vegeta. They were not friends

Vegeta did not have a single person he genuinely cared about until Bulma and Trunks.

Okay, even if Nappa and Vegeta's relationship was not platonic, killing your servants is still a crummy thing to do.

I don’t really disagree with you here. I am trying to point out Vegeta didn’t kill someone who cared about him but someone who feared him. It’s not your point that this was an evil thing to do that I disagree it’s the relationship dynamic between them I disagreed with.

I guess because I see this a lot in fanfiction and the relationship is even softened in games like Legends.

But for me there was no love of friendship between them. It was a relationship built on power and fear.

Even if there was no friendship between them, Nappa was still Vegeta’s comrade who was clearly loyal to him. He was also one of the last surviving Saiyans, so you’d think Vegeta, being someone who clearly takes pride in being a Saiyan, wouldn’t be so eager to kill him. Even if you want to argue that Nappa was a liability to Vegeta at that point, Vegeta could’ve simply helped Nappa get into his space pod and sent him off. There was no reason to kill him, other than pure sadism.

[Kinokima]

Okay, even if Nappa and Vegeta's relationship was not platonic, killing your servants is still a crummy thing to do.

I don’t really disagree with you here. I am trying to point out Vegeta didn’t kill someone who cared about him but someone who feared him. It’s not your point that this was an evil thing to do that I disagree it’s the relationship dynamic between them I disagreed with.

I guess because I see this a lot in fanfiction and the relationship is even softened in games like Legends.

But for me there was no love of friendship between them. It was a relationship built on power and fear.

Even if there was no friendship between them, Nappa was still Vegeta’s comrade who was clearly loyal to him. He was also one of the last surviving Saiyans, so you’d think Vegeta, being someone who clearly takes pride in being a Saiyan, wouldn’t be so eager to kill him. Even if you want to argue that Nappa was a liability to Vegeta at that point, Vegeta could’ve simply helped Nappa get into his space pod and sent him off. There was no reason to kill him, other than pure sadism.

I am not really defending Vegeta. Vegeta was a villain and villains kill their underlings it’s the villain thing to do.

But in Vegeta’s twisted mind Nappa was weak and useless as a warrior so he killed him. Vegeta didn’t seem to care what happened to the Saiyans back then. I think Vegeta takes pride in being part of a strong race but didn’t seem to care that he was the only one left. In fact I would argue his pride was probably in just being the strongest of a strong race.

It also goes to show the difference in how he treats someone like Cabba now in Super who is clearly weaker than him.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t really disagree with you here. I am trying to point out Vegeta didn’t kill someone who cared about him but someone who feared him. It’s not your point that this was an evil thing to do that I disagree it’s the relationship dynamic between them I disagreed with.

I guess because I see this a lot in fanfiction and the relationship is even softened in games like Legends.

But for me there was no love of friendship between them. It was a relationship built on power and fear.

Even if there was no friendship between them, Nappa was still Vegeta’s comrade who was clearly loyal to him. He was also one of the last surviving Saiyans, so you’d think Vegeta, being someone who clearly takes pride in being a Saiyan, wouldn’t be so eager to kill him. Even if you want to argue that Nappa was a liability to Vegeta at that point, Vegeta could’ve simply helped Nappa get into his space pod and sent him off. There was no reason to kill him, other than pure sadism.

I am not really defending Vegeta. Vegeta was a villain and villains kill their underlings it’s the villain thing to do.

But in Vegeta’s twisted mind Nappa was weak and useless as a warrior so he killed him. Vegeta didn’t seem to care what happened to the Saiyans back then. I think Vegeta takes pride in being part of a strong race but didn’t seem to care that he was the only one left. In fact I would argue his pride was probably in just being the strongest of a strong race.

It also goes to show the difference in how he treats someone like Cabba now in Super who is clearly weaker than him.

That just reinforces the point about how horrifically evil Vegeta was. He was a murderous space pirate who had no regard for anyone but himself.

[Kinokima]

Even if there was no friendship between them, Nappa was still Vegeta’s comrade who was clearly loyal to him. He was also one of the last surviving Saiyans, so you’d think Vegeta, being someone who clearly takes pride in being a Saiyan, wouldn’t be so eager to kill him. Even if you want to argue that Nappa was a liability to Vegeta at that point, Vegeta could’ve simply helped Nappa get into his space pod and sent him off. There was no reason to kill him, other than pure sadism.

I am not really defending Vegeta. Vegeta was a villain and villains kill their underlings it’s the villain thing to do.

But in Vegeta’s twisted mind Nappa was weak and useless as a warrior so he killed him. Vegeta didn’t seem to care what happened to the Saiyans back then. I think Vegeta takes pride in being part of a strong race but didn’t seem to care that he was the only one left. In fact I would argue his pride was probably in just being the strongest of a strong race.

It also goes to show the difference in how he treats someone like Cabba now in Super who is clearly weaker than him.

That just reinforces the point about how horrifically evil Vegeta was. He was a murderous space pirate who had no regard for anyone but himself.

Sure not arguing that Vegeta wasn’t evil just came in to argue the relationship dynamic between Vegeta and Nappa. It was a total off topic point I was making.

[jjgp1112]

Even if there was no friendship between them, Nappa was still Vegeta’s comrade who was clearly loyal to him. He was also one of the last surviving Saiyans, so you’d think Vegeta, being someone who clearly takes pride in being a Saiyan, wouldn’t be so eager to kill him. Even if you want to argue that Nappa was a liability to Vegeta at that point, Vegeta could’ve simply helped Nappa get into his space pod and sent him off. There was no reason to kill him, other than pure sadism.

I am not really defending Vegeta. Vegeta was a villain and villains kill their underlings it’s the villain thing to do.

But in Vegeta’s twisted mind Nappa was weak and useless as a warrior so he killed him. Vegeta didn’t seem to care what happened to the Saiyans back then. I think Vegeta takes pride in being part of a strong race but didn’t seem to care that he was the only one left. In fact I would argue his pride was probably in just being the strongest of a strong race.

It also goes to show the difference in how he treats someone like Cabba now in Super who is clearly weaker than him.

That just reinforces the point about how horrifically evil Vegeta was. He was a murderous space pirate who had no regard for anyone but himself.

Bruh, I'm pretty sure he isn't actually arguing against that premise

[MyVisionity]

Vegeta wasn't some irredeemable monster. Smashing Grampas isn't some Satanic act.

Really? Really? You don't want to put any distance between those two statements? If murdering children and the elderly is no more than a little oopsie, I'm terrified to find out what you would consider to be irredeemable behavior.

I mean it's awful, sure. But it's not like some big line has been crossed. He's killing indiscriminately. It was for the sake of the Dragon Balls. He's not out for a stroll.

Vegeta was "horrifically evil" for killing Nappa now? Vegeta don't play is more like it. He's a ruthless villain.

[jjgp1112]

Vegeta wasn't some irredeemable monster. Smashing Grampas isn't some Satanic act.

Really? Really? You don't want to put any distance between those two statements? If murdering children and the elderly is no more than a little oopsie, I'm terrified to find out what you would consider to be irredeemable behavior.

I mean it's awful, sure. But it's not like some big line has been crossed. He's killing indiscriminately. It was for the sake of the Dragon Balls. He's not out for a stroll.

Vegeta was "horrifically evil" for killing Nappa now? Vegeta don't play is more like it. He's a ruthless villain.

Killing indiscriminately to get what you want - especially when what you want goes towards becoming the universe's evil emperor - is no less evil than killing just 'cause. Less CRAZY, but still equal parts evil.

[Kinokima]

I don't think it's brazen at all. Vegeta wasn't some irredeemable monster. Smashing Grampas isn't some Satanic act. He was evil, but they know this guy by then. Let him hang around if he wants. As far as I'm concerned, he proved himself in the Freeza arc. As long as he's not actively doing evil, he checks out ok.

Okay now I am going to go on topic. My perspective of why Vegeta is redeemable is not because he didn’t do completely irredeemable things by our standards but because he was doing those things since he was a child.

Personally I like to compare the Saiyans to Space Vikings. The Vikings were pretty horrible and cruel too. But that was the culture they were brought up in. If a Viking came to live another way of life would they change too? That is what I felt happened to Vegeta. And Vegeta’s change was slow but I also think that makes sense when he was already an adult when those changes started to occur.

I think it was Battle of Gods that said it was Earth that changed characters like Piccolo & Vegeta. Or how I always like to put it an alien learning humanity. I do wish some of Vegeta’s changes happened more on screen though.

[jjgp1112]

I don't think it's brazen at all. Vegeta wasn't some irredeemable monster. Smashing Grampas isn't some Satanic act. He was evil, but they know this guy by then. Let him hang around if he wants. As far as I'm concerned, he proved himself in the Freeza arc. As long as he's not actively doing evil, he checks out ok.

Okay now I am going to go on topic. My perspective of why Vegeta is redeemable is not because he didn’t do completely irredeemable things by our standards but because he was doing those things since he was a child.

Personally I like to compare the Saiyans to Space Vikings. The Vikings were pretty horrible and cruel too. But that was the culture they were brought up in. If a Viking came to live another way of life would they change too? That is what I felt happened to Vegeta. And Vegeta’s change was slow but I also think that makes sense when he was already an adult when those changes started to occur.

I think it was Battle of Gods that said it was Earth that changed characters like Piccolo & Vegeta. Or how I always like to put it an alien learning humanity. I do wish some of Vegeta’s changes happened more on screen though.

That's the way I've always seen it too. They're intelligent animals, basically. Violence is their way of life and they see the universe through a purely Darwinist lens. The only difference between they and a Destroyer is the Gods approve of the latter.

I think the average Saiyan could live in a civilized society, but it takes the same process Vegeta went though; unlearning that mentality.

[derpytacos]

Personally I like to compare the Saiyans to Space Vikings. The Vikings were pretty horrible and cruel too. But that was the culture they were brought up in. If a Viking came to live another way of life would they change too? That is what I felt happened to Vegeta. And Vegeta’s change was slow but I also think that makes sense when he was already an adult when those changes started to occur.

Vikings weren't nothing but a society of genocidal maniacs. Vikings didnt kill all the other people on the planet because they wanted to be the dominant people. When vikings ruined their planet(which they didnt) they didnt go to a new planet and commit complete genocide on them. They didnt work for another genocidal maniac committing genocides for him and selling the new lands for a profit. Heck even vegeta didnt want the freeza force to stop, he just wanted to be the dude running it. Of all of the redemption arcs in dbz this one makes the least sense. Piccolo was following his crazy dad's wishes, until he learned better. Tien was frankly abused as a child and changed when he learned he could. 18, wasn't inherently evil, she was kidnaped and turned into a monster. Buu was chaos incarnate and the grand supreme kai mellowed him out enough to be tamed.

[Kinokima]

Personally I like to compare the Saiyans to Space Vikings. The Vikings were pretty horrible and cruel too. But that was the culture they were brought up in. If a Viking came to live another way of life would they change too? That is what I felt happened to Vegeta. And Vegeta’s change was slow but I also think that makes sense when he was already an adult when those changes started to occur.

Vikings weren't nothing but a society of genocidal maniacs. Vikings didnt kill all the other people on the planet because they wanted to be the dominant people. When vikings ruined their planet(which they didnt) they didnt go to a new planet and commit complete genocide on them. They didnt work for another genocidal maniac committing genocides for him and selling the new lands for a profit. Heck even vegeta didnt want the freeza force to stop, he just wanted to be the dude running it. Of all of the redemption arcs in dbz this one makes the least sense. Piccolo was following his crazy dad's wishes, until he learned better. Tien was frankly abused as a child and changed when he learned he could. 18, wasn't inherently evil, she was kidnaped and turned into a monster. Buu was chaos incarnate and the grand supreme kai mellowed him out enough to be tamed.

I am honestly not sure what point you are trying to make. Vegeta ALSO learned better. It took him living another life to do so.

[Anonymous Friend]

I like that Vegeta was written in such a nuanced way and that we have other characters of the same type to compare how they measure up.

There's a certain scale to "evil". Some evil you do for the greater good, justice, or even just to prevent a greater evil. Like Goku cutting a deathly swath through the Red Ribbon army. The nuance come from things like intent and who does it and who it happens to. All murder is bad, depending on the victim. Pretty sure I'd be hailed a hero for murdering a child milester.

There's some good back and forth discussion going on, and we all agree that those things he did were bad. It's just that we award more evil points to some actions and more to others. Killing a village of elderly and children to get something you want from them is definitely less evil then killing just because. If Vegeta wasn't looking for a dragon ball, he wouldn't have even bothered with them. I'm pretty sure if he walked up and asked for the ball and they gave it to him with no fight back, none of them would have been killed. I'm 87% sure. But then again, the entire village was killed, and you have to wonder if they all died and Vegeta then had to find the ball himself, or did he decide to kill the rest because they caused him so much trouble. Either way, Vegeta is a mine field that once you know him, and understand how he is, you can easy navigate him. Contrast to Freeza, who I'm 100% sure no namekian were going to live through their encounter with him, even if they all handed over the balls with no struggle at all. Because he gets off on all that stuff. The only way to live though Freeza was to go above and beyond to prove to him that you are loyal, obedient, and very useful.