Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

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Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:24 pm

So since Dragon Ball's inception we have many and more shonen that have been out there for quite awhile and that list always growing with passing time.

Dragon Ball is still considerably huge to this day due it's long lasting appeal which I most likely do not need to explain in detail since we all kind of know here. However, despite this and what this community is, do you happen to like any other shonen series' writing more? If so, why do you feel that way? What do those series do better in your opinion?

This is not a tiering debate per se, but more of a curiosity on the community of Kanzenshuu.

Though in the event you do think Dragon Ball is the best written shonen, feel free to express why.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:54 pm

Considering how much manga and anime in Japan written for grade school and middle school boys I’m sure there are statistically quite a few better crafted stories than Dragon Ball. So I don’t feel right saying Dragon Ball is the best.


But it sure as hell ain’t any of its successors like One Piece or Naruto or My Hero Academia

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Cipher » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:00 pm

Dragon Ball is exempt from comparison.

Putting it up against series with serious world-building or ground-up thematic goals, even if they share target demographics, is apples to oranges. Totally different modes and things to enjoy (or not enjoy) about them.

Or rather, if you make the direct comparison and it's along the lines of the latter's strengths, you're ignoring DB's strength of character- and dialogue-writing, tone, and coherence of stories within frenzy of week-to-week writing, which is its own pleasure and often times would only stand to lose things by being reimagined to emulate other series.

I don't think DB actually shares that much creative DNA with a lot of the later shonen titles it gets put up against. I think that's a question to tackle when the scope is narrowed down a lot more to series that are in the same mode.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Skar » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:26 pm

I recently watched Hxh. In my personal opinion, I can say I enjoyed it especially the Chimera Ant arc more than any DB arc post-Freeza. I don't like saying a series is better than another since that comes down to preference. There's a lot of criteria so something important for one fan might not matter to someone else. For example, I've heard some fans believe that DB-inspired series like Naruto and One Piece are better in certain ways and try to avoid some of DB's issues while others argue that none of them live up to it. Google "Dragon Ball vs" almost any series and you'd find countless opinions on which is better than the other.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:56 pm

There's loads, I think. None I find as funny or witty as Dragon Ball (which is probably all Toriyama cares about) but there's tons of manga/anime targeted at 10-14 year olds that's better written than Dragon Ball.

My own personal favorite is Record of the Lodoss War which is... well it's basically someone's 2e Dungeons and Dragons adventure and if I'm honest that's the biggest reason I like it. Classic sword and sorcery done in a Japanese style. It's a little too true to genre. The characters and their motivations (while easy to understand) won't capture your imagination unless you're already into fantasy stories like Dragonlance. I mean Dark Elves feature as a major antagonist, the protag is the son of a disgraced knight, and his love interest is a High Elf. There's nothing subversive about Lodoss War. It's never trying to be something it's not which makes it a little predictable but also gives it a really strong focus. For me at least, knowing what was about to happen freed me up to appreciate how well each narrative beat was executed, if that makes sense.

Stories that try too hard to subvert the reader's expectations or trick them usually end up losing the charm of the genre they're written in. That's a big problem non fans have with DB. Toriyama's too frequent use of red herrings can get very grating. Lodoss War knows where it's going and it suspects the viewer has a pretty good idea too, so it tries to make the trip worthwhile. Kinda like sitting down with a new first level adventure with a group you've played with before.

Anyway, I recommend it to anyone who wants a lighter Berserk but didn't like the comedy of Slayers.
Skar wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:26 pm I recently watched Hxh. In my personal opinion, I can say I enjoyed it especially the Chimera Ant arc more than any DB arc post-Freeza. I don't like saying a series is better than another since that comes down to preference. There's a lot of criteria so something important for one fan might not matter to someone else. For example, I've heard some fans believe that DB-inspired series like Naruto and One Piece are better in certain ways and try to avoid some of DB's issues while others argue that none of them live up to it. Google "Dragon Ball vs" almost any series and you'd find countless opinions on which is better than the other.
HxH feels a bit like a cheat answer tho. When you take the series as a whole it comes off less as its own series and more like an attempt to understand battle shonen as a genre. Like, not only do you have Ging providing the thrill seeker's manifesto, you've got all these allusions and deliberate references to DragonBall that stand out more than anything One Piece or Naruto did. Gon's fishing rod, his Ja-janken, climbing the World Tree, even the assault on Mereum's Palace felt like it was 'Five Minutes Until Namek Explodes' but on purpose. There's even three different interpretations of Goku; Gon and Ging (as "positive" representation of the character archetype) and Hisoka as a sort of dark mirror.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Cipher » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:16 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:56 pm There's loads, I think. None I find as funny or witty as Dragon Ball (which is probably all Toriyama cares about) but there's tons of manga/anime targeted at 10-14 year olds that's better written than Dragon Ball.
This is kind of what I was getting at above, but being witty, funny, and even exciting are all parts of writing. Scene-to-scene execution is writing, and in comics by a single author, I think there's an argument to make that even paneling and artwork are writing.

I feel like this type of question often uses "writing" to be synonymous with "plotting," which is fine, but it becomes a little disingenuous to use it as being a broader umbrella than the single element it is. It asks for a comparison along one axis that then purports to be a comparison along every.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Skar » Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:39 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:56 pmHxH feels a bit like a cheat answer tho. When you take the series as a whole it comes off less as its own series and more like an attempt to understand battle shonen as a genre. Like, not only do you have Ging providing the thrill seeker's manifesto, you've got all these allusions and deliberate references to DragonBall that stand out more than anything One Piece or Naruto did. Gon's fishing rod, his Ja-janken, climbing the World Tree, even the assault on Mereum's Palace felt like it was 'Five Minutes Until Namek Explodes' but on purpose. There's even three different interpretations of Goku; Gon and Ging (as "positive" representation of the character archetype) and Hisoka as a sort of dark mirror.
That's a good point. HxH was the only battle shonen I've seen aside from DB, YYH, and FotS if that counts so I guess I wouldn't know the references to other shonen titles After DBZ, I've mainly watched shorter anime series and the longest might've been Monster at 74 episodes. Like I said, I wouldn't consider it necessarily better since it was only based on my own preference. I really liked the characters and the concept of Nen with how it offers more variety in abilities. All I can say is that I personally enjoyed it and almost as much as my favorite arcs of DB. I didn't mean it in a sense of competition between them since I still loved both series but for maybe slightly different reasons.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:20 am

Cipher wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:16 pm This is kind of what I was getting at above, but being witty, funny, and even exciting are all parts of writing. Scene-to-scene execution is writing, and in comics by a single author, I think there's an argument to make that even paneling and artwork are writing.

I feel like this type of question often uses "writing" to be synonymous with "plotting," which is fine, but it becomes a little disingenuous to use it as being a broader umbrella than the single element it is. It asks for a comparison along one axis that then purports to be a comparison along every.
Sorry. I wasn't trying to be dimissive of Toriyama's skill or the quality of his art. I think he's easily one of the best comics I've ever read. Reading "which is probably all Toriyama cares about" again... I wish I'd phrased that differently. Toriyama's art excelled in all the ways he wanted it to and that's something most of us will probably never get to say.

Anyway, you're right. The matter of fact way I answered the OP was a bit too much. I might as well have confidently asserted that Taxi Driver was a better movie than Young Frankenstein. It's not a very helpful comparison to make and is ultimately unfair to both works.
Skar wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:39 pm I really liked the characters and the concept of Nen with how it offers more variety in abilities.
Nen is amazing.

Ok, I gotta fangush for a minute. When Knuckle busted out that chapter seven bankruptcy thing, I could not stop laughing. I felt terrible for Gon but I'd never seen a protagonist get beaten by compound interest. It was such an insane moment being played completely straight and with such major consequences the whole thing became surreal to me.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Cipher » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:49 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:20 am Sorry. I wasn't trying to be dimissive of Toriyama's skill or the quality of his art. I think he's easily one of the best comics I've ever read. Reading "which is probably all Toriyama cares about" again... I wish I'd phrased that differently. Toriyama's art excelled in all the ways he wanted it to and that's something most of us will probably never get to say.

Anyway, you're right. The matter of fact way I answered the OP was a bit too much. I might as well have confidently asserted that Taxi Driver was a better movie than Young Frankenstein. It's not a very helpful comparison to make and is ultimately unfair to both works.
Sorry as well! Didn't meant to seem like I was specifically taking issue with your post. Just saw it as a springboard to better clarify something I tried to get at higher up.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by jjgp1112 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:53 am

Cipher wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:16 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:56 pm There's loads, I think. None I find as funny or witty as Dragon Ball (which is probably all Toriyama cares about) but there's tons of manga/anime targeted at 10-14 year olds that's better written than Dragon Ball.
This is kind of what I was getting at above, but being witty, funny, and even exciting are all parts of writing. Scene-to-scene execution is writing, and in comics by a single author, I think there's an argument to make that even paneling and artwork are writing.

I feel like this type of question often uses "writing" to be synonymous with "plotting," which is fine, but it becomes a little disingenuous to use it as being a broader umbrella than the single element it is. It asks for a comparison along one axis that then purports to be a comparison along every.
This is neither related to the discussion nor aimed at Anya but you mentioned something that's always bugged me, especially in discussions about Dragon Ball for the last 5 years or so.

I feel like the word "writing" in nerd media discussion has mutated into some nebulous word about...the internal logic and consistency of the technical stuff, I guess? Like rarely do I see "Bad writing" dished out in these circles for anything pertaining to the characters and the flow of the story, it's always something like "X character shouldn't be this strong because X". I've seen a Reddit post say Dragon Ball has bad writing because Goku survives a bullet to the head and sends a rabbit to the moon. Um...okay? Goes back to my common complaint of fans treating these shows like card games, which I guess the hyper-commercialization and fanservicey nature of these franchises is partially to blame for.

Much like "Mary Sue," the phrase "bad writing" has become something that fans throw around without actually knowing what they're saying so they can grant greater significance to some quibble they have.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by PurestEvil » Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:07 am

Well duh. Since Dragon Ball's story is quite shallow, there is bound to be other manga that are more sophisticatedly developed (cough One Piece)
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:38 am

Writing in the sense that's cohesive and consistent, explores things perhaps Dragon Ball never does, or perhaps say things Dragon Ball does that others don't do. I'm not really trying to get invested in generalizations of what people have experienced in fandoms before. This is a straight up your own opinion thread where what you define good writing is up to you the individual and how you perceive the shonen genre.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:21 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:53 am Goes back to my common complaint of fans treating these shows like card games, which I guess the hyper-commercialization and fanservicey nature of these franchises is partially to blame for.
There is definitely a tendency to treat the Dragon Ball franchise more like a video game series or collectible card game. This is why completely asinine terms like “Base Goku” and “SSJ Grade 3 Vegeta” and “Teen Gohan” exist instead of just calling the characters by their names. Or why discussions about power levels and fans making up their own power level list and who would beat who under this hypothetical scenario dominate most Dragon Ball online discussions outside of Kanz.

Much like "Mary Sue," the phrase "bad writing" has become something that fans throw around without actually knowing what they're saying so they can grant greater significance to some quibble they have.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Kinokima » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:32 am

I don’t think Dragon Ball is badly written. I think it’s simplistic in many ways but I don’t think that is necessarily a bad thing. It’s a fun and charming series.

But there are a lot of series I admittedly enjoy more than Dragon Ball. Sometimes I do want something a bit more complex. Although I don’t usually turn to other Battle Shounen when I am looking for something like this. Although there are tons of Shounen series (which is an extremely broad marker) that do fit the bill.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:12 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:53 am I feel like the word "writing" in nerd media discussion has mutated into some nebulous word about...the internal logic and consistency of the technical stuff, I guess? Like rarely do I see "Bad writing" dished out in these circles for anything pertaining to the characters and the flow of the story, it's always something like "X character shouldn't be this strong because X".
This is part of a bigger problem. The demand for media criticism rapidly outstripped the number of qualified critics and we, the consumers, don't know how to distinguish "bad criticism" from "good criticism." To make things worse in the last twenty or so odd years, there's been a huge turn against elitism (or at least what can be perceived as elitism). So, even when the critic really does have the relevant expertise, pop criticism can never delve too deeply into the technical aspects of art because such discussions will be treated as 'snobbish' by the audience.

Honestly I think it's worse in other media than it is in anime. Anime at least has the excuse of being this bespoke thing for Japanese kids that somehow got popular world wide. It's usually pulpy and never meant to stand on its own. There isn't a 'history of the visual language' (or some other incredibly snobby sounding thing) for anime in the way there is for film or even Western cartoons like Tex Avery. It's to be expected that people talking about anime won't know what they're talking about.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:33 am

Does Jojo count?
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:54 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:33 am Does Jojo count?
It was published in Shonen Jump until like 2005. I’d say so. Unless you don’t think it got better until after that.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Alruneia » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:26 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:33 am Does Jojo count?
Yes, or at the very least it does until Part 7.
JoJo is my main suggestion as well, though Dragon Ball and JoJo are a bit like apples and oranges, so I don't know if it's really fair to try to say that one's certainly better than the other. They're not really the same thing, and they don't really try to achieve the same things.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Kid Buu » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:28 am

Kimagure Orange Road. Story and characters are more realistic.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:34 am

I always smile when I see a Kimagure Orange Road fan!
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