Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:36 pm

I think it fits better with the weirdness of the Sensui arc than Toguro.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:07 pm

The entire show is weird and dark, so I think it's fitting for whenever, even if the Sensui arc lends itself better. The good thing about it is that it rotates in and out every few episodes so the effect is not overdone or underdone.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:21 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:07 pm The entire show is weird and dark, so I think it's fitting for whenever, even if the Sensui arc lends itself better. The good thing about it is that it rotates in and out every few episodes so the effect is not overdone or underdone.
The explanation weird so it's fitting whenever feels like a cop out. It's silly and goofy, but those exaggerated movements and models are there to show things are off kilter. If everything is off kilter, none of it is. The Toguro situation was a run of the mill tragic backstory and didn't need a style that draws a lot of attention to itself.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:22 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:27 pm i definitely can see why the fairly off model, really exaggerated movements of wakabayashi's and shinbo's episodes isn't for everybody, especially because outside of the weird ass perspectives and backgrounds, that isn't really the style of the show for the most part, but i love it. the toguro flashback episode (which is my favorite ep of the whole show) in particular is probably the best usage of that style, it's just so striking and with how weird it is fits the ep perfectly. also their episode of the hiei bui fight, holy crap.
Which is funny to say because everyone on staff loved their episodes so much so that everyone working on the series during the Dark Tournament was trying to outdo one another. Up through about the middle part of the Black Chapter arc it's really evident how hard everyone was pushing to outdo each other in how wild their directing and animation could get. It definitely feels like Series Director Abe basically saw what he had in Shinbou and just let him set the pace for the series, which definitely worked to his advantage considering how much Abe grew over the years and became a better director.

I recall the first few episodes of the Black Chapter arc having such awesome animation and directing. Even simple scenes of Kaitou using the bathroom in Episode #69 are really well done. The dynamic camera angle really emphasizes Kaitou being cramped in the small lavatory and easily flexes the key animator's skill in animating backgrounds. It's honestly the kind of shot I wish we saw more of in animation, it's so awesome! Like, fuck, the backgrounds are animated when he runs out of the restroom! Holy shit! A weaker director would use CG for that these days but here's it's this powerful, swift and organic shot!

Fuck, the background animation was just so lavish in Episode #69. You could really feel everyone was trying to outdo Shinbou and Wakabayashi! Goddamn it, these shots are so dynamic. I absolutely bow before the feet of whoever animated this shot of Kaitou. That had to have taken forever!
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:34 pm

If they were trying to emphasize being in a cramped space, why would you use a dynamic camera movement? I don't think that's what they were going for. I think they were visually showing how askew everything was in his territory
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:37 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:34 pm If they were trying to emphasize being in a cramped space, why would you use a dynamic camera movement? I don't think that's what they were going for. I think they were visually showing how askew everything was in his territory
The entire space is shown in the shot, capturing the small size of the room and the encroaching pressure of his foe.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:44 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:37 pm
ABED wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:34 pm If they were trying to emphasize being in a cramped space, why would you use a dynamic camera movement? I don't think that's what they were going for. I think they were visually showing how askew everything was in his territory
The entire space is shown in the shot, capturing the small size of the room and the encroaching pressure of his foe.
But you don't feel confined by it. It shows that there is a ton of space in the frame so much so that the camera is able to move around in empty space. If they were making people feel cramped, the right move would to go in closer and keep the camera static like there's no room for anyone to move around. This just screams "look at me!"
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:45 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:40 pm It's so good! His episodes just continually got better the longer the series went until Wakabayashi left after #74. Like, Shinbou's episodes would recreate the ending of the previous episode and the layouts would always look so much better, it's hilarious. The effect Yuu Yuu Hakusho had on Naruto is nuts and only wound up helping Naruto become the Yuu Yuu Hakusho to even more anime.
Interesting! Maybe I'll finally get around to watching Naruto.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:49 pm

ABED wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:50 pm Maybe I'm just weird but while there are parts of that animation I like, the way the characters move just looks weird and is, for a lack of better word, "rubbery"

But yes, YYH is fantastic and I think a big part of the reason it does a better job with its cast of characters is that it keeps the group small.
Definitely agree with this. YYH also keeps the fighters very similar in power (at least until the end of Chapter Black), so there isn't that feeling of irrelevance for any of the key characters (except maybe the last arc). Although I think I've heard in the manga they stay pretty similar.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:01 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:49 pm
ABED wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:50 pm Maybe I'm just weird but while there are parts of that animation I like, the way the characters move just looks weird and is, for a lack of better word, "rubbery"

But yes, YYH is fantastic and I think a big part of the reason it does a better job with its cast of characters is that it keeps the group small.
Definitely agree with this. YYH also keeps the fighters very similar in power (at least until the end of Chapter Black), so there isn't that feeling of irrelevance for any of the key characters (except maybe the last arc). Although I think I've heard in the manga they stay pretty similar.
Even in the case of Kuwabara's decison to sit out the final arc, it feels like a progression for his character. He's growing up. As much as I love DB, Toriyama often doesn't give characters necessary closure after they've served their function in the story. He often keeps them around lingering in the background. Muten Roshi is the best example of someone who got a proper ending. He still stays around, but his function as wise master giving his perspective feels organic. Puar, Oolong, Yamcha, etc. don't serve any real role after a while but they stay in the story.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:39 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:45 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:40 pm It's so good! His episodes just continually got better the longer the series went until Wakabayashi left after #74. Like, Shinbou's episodes would recreate the ending of the previous episode and the layouts would always look so much better, it's hilarious. The effect Yuu Yuu Hakusho had on Naruto is nuts and only wound up helping Naruto become the Yuu Yuu Hakusho to even more anime.
Interesting! Maybe I'll finally get around to watching Naruto.
Oh my gosh, sweetie, it's such a wild ride. I don't think there's a master list yet of episodes that need to be watched (I keep meaning to do one). It's so wild how special Naruto is as a production. Kids that grew up on the original series in the early 2000s and were inspired by the Tsuru/Suzuki and Wakayabashi episodes inevitably wound up joining the series and contributed to the big episodes in later years. Off the top of my head:

NARUTO (2002):
Episode #17 (Storyboard & Episode Director: Tsuru Toshiyuki; Animation Supervisor: Suzuki Hirofumi, Hyodo Masaru): This is just a precursur of sorts to future episodes and definitely the weakest Tsuru episode but also full of hints at what was to come. Tsuru's a legend in the industry and so is the second of the two character designers for the series, Suzuki.
Episode #30, #71, #133 (Storyboard, Episode Director & Animation Supervisor: Wakabayashi Atsushi): Yup, Shinbou's old partner-in-crime! For his three episodes for the series he took full control of the episode and acted as animation supervisor (correcting the layouts and key animation) in addition to storyboarding and directing. Wakabayashi gets his friend Matsumoto Norio (the legend!) to key animate one half of each episode by himself and then would handle the rest of the episode with Inoue Atsuko. #133 (Naruto versus Sasuke) is still famous to this day. Actually, all of the episodes are famous but #133 being the climax of such an important story arc for the franchise really settles it as iconic.
Episode #48 (Storyboard & Episode Director: Tsuru Toshiyuki; Animation Supervisor: Suzuki Hirofumi): This is where Tsuru's episodes started getting more experimental, including his use of CG for backgrounds. It's a distinctly early 2000s digital compositing episode. Matsumoto Norio also provides a fair bit of the animation for Rock Lee versus Gaara.
Episode #146 (Storyboard & Episode Director: Murata Masahiko; Animation Supervisor: Asai Seko): This is filler episode but it's also where we began to see the first signs of Murata Masahiko dipping into his repertoire as a director. When it comes to episodes that cover direct chapters of the comic Murata is typically fairly conservative but this episode is nothing like that. As you can tell from this thread of screen captures I took back in 2015 the episode has insanely good layouts (relation between the character and their environment) and special attention paid to compositing. The colors, lighting and shading are all super special and really elevate the material. So many people bemoan filler in long-running series based on comics but I find them to be perfect chances to experiment and build one's skills as a creator.
Episode #151 (Storyboard & Episode Director: Tsuru Toshiyuki; Animation Supervisor: Suzuki Hirofumi): It's a filler episode but still has some nice directing.

NARUTO SHIPPUUDEN:

Wakabayashi's Episode #167: he returned! For this episode he provides all of his usual roles and asks Matsumoto to handle the latter half of the episode as usual. The first six or seven minutes are entirely key animated and in-betweened by Yamashita Shingo (who has gone on to be an insanely good director). This episode is seen as very controversial but frankly it's the series' best episode. It's insane. Wakabayashi's sound direction is also really good. The voice actors all take it up a notched but the music placement is without a doubt the best, too.

Tsuru's (Credited as Kurotsu Yasuaki) #1 (Storyboard-only): I forget why but Tsuru only storyboarded this episode. Kumagai Masaaki does a good job directing and one can really feel Tsuru's hand in the opening scene. I think he had a scheduling conflict so he wasn't involved as the episode director himself. Also, for some reason Tsuru is only credited as Kurotsu for Shippuuden. I don't think we know why but either way he doesn't hold back.
Tsuru's #82, #85, #123, #166, #290-295 and #478: Tsuru writes (yup, he even writes the scripts), storyboards and directs all of these episodes. Character Designer Suzuki Hirofumi acts as the animation supervisor for #82, #85, #123 and #290 while sharing the credit with others for #291, #294 and #295. Episodes #290-295 are the "Chikara" arc, what is likely a film that was originally supposed to be released but was instead replaced by Road to Ninja. Tsuru had previously written and directed the third film for the franchise and Chikara, while borrowing the same general plot of being a story about fathers, feels like a more refined take. Despite being produced in the middle of a hellish era (after all, Road to Ninja was also being produced at the same time) this arc winds up looking even better than the theatrical film (which had quite a few corrections done for the Japanese home video release). Tsuru later scripted #479.
Yamashita Hiroyuki/山下宏幸: Yamashita was originally just an animator for the series but later became an episode director on legendary episodes of the series (#322, #345, #375, #476-477) where he would storyboard, direct and be the animation supervisor. Yamashita's an animator who is something of an all-arounder. He can do character animation and action animation. His art is gorgeous but he can also do simple drawings that look great and move great. Yamashita was really the leading force of the Shippuuden team, evolving from doing a ton of animation (even solo animating #252) to being a great animation supervisor and later director. After #375 (which features one of the best hand-to-hand combat scenes I've ever seen) Yamashita was asked to direct Boruto: Naruto The Movie. The production schedule for the movie was impossibly short but Kishimoto Masashi (writer and artist of the original comic) was so enthralled by Yamashita's episodes of the TV series that he trusted Yamashita with the storyboards. The production was grueling and as a result several ambulance trips from Studio Pierrot to the hospital happened for Yamashita. Nevertheless he stayed with the franchise. Knowing that the scenario for Naruto and Sasuke's final fight would be two episodes long Yamashita was determined to storyboard and direct both. The team was really stretched for animators at the time (Matsumoto Norio was only able to do a short piece of uncredited animation) so Yamashita relied a lot on young animators like Chenxi Huang, who were inspired by his work years before. Yamashita went from being inspired by Matsumoto to now inspiring his own successors. Yamashita then took on the role of series director for Boruto: Naruto Next Generations Episodes #1-66, where he helped set the tone of the series and nurture talent slowly. Unfortunately there aren't as many great episodes during this era but the overall quality of the series was slowly increasing. Yamashita storyboarded and directed Episode #1 only so far. After leaving the series director role he has only appeared occasionally as a key animator for action scenes, proving that he still has it even though he'd focused on directing for the last few years.

Fuck, this post is way longer than I meant it to be. Anyway...uh...watch Naruto. Check out https://www.sakugabooru.com/post for what episodes and movies have cool animation. I didn't even scratch the surface of good animators and directors in this post.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:17 am

But if YYH had just continued forward for hundreds of more episodes, would it have been able to handle its cast of characters as well as it did?

ABED wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:21 pm The explanation weird so it's fitting whenever feels like a cop out. It's silly and goofy, but those exaggerated movements and models are there to show things are off kilter. If everything is off kilter, none of it is. The Toguro situation was a run of the mill tragic backstory and didn't need a style that draws a lot of attention to itself.
I disagree that it's there to show that things are off kilter. I think it's there in order to turn things off kilter. The Toguro stuff is run of the mill until you apply that animation style, then it becomes something more. If it were in every episode, that would be one thing, but it's spaced out.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:40 am

MyVisionity wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:17 am But if YYH had just continued forward for hundreds of more episodes, would it have been able to handle its cast of characters as well as it did?
That depends on the people making the series. People with ideas have ideas. People without ideas are without ideas.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:32 am

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:39 pm Fuck, this post is way longer than I meant it to be. Anyway...uh...watch Naruto. Check out https://www.sakugabooru.com/post for what episodes and movies have cool animation. I didn't even scratch the surface of good animators and directors in this post.
Lol that's very informative! That certainly has raised my interest in watching it! Thanks!
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:51 am

MyVisionity wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:17 am But if YYH had just continued forward for hundreds of more episodes, would it have been able to handle its cast of characters as well as it did?

ABED wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:21 pm The explanation weird so it's fitting whenever feels like a cop out. It's silly and goofy, but those exaggerated movements and models are there to show things are off kilter. If everything is off kilter, none of it is. The Toguro situation was a run of the mill tragic backstory and didn't need a style that draws a lot of attention to itself.
I disagree that it's there to show that things are off kilter. I think it's there in order to turn things off kilter. The Toguro stuff is run of the mill until you apply that animation style, then it becomes something more. If it were in every episode, that would be one thing, but it's spaced out.
That's what the point of those episodes are. Things are out of the norm for them. They're dealing with a brand new phenomena, and it's presented as a mystery. They're stuck in that house, forced to play a game against an enemy they don't know. The animation doesn't turn things off kilter, it takes the story and visually conveys that feeling to the audience. It's visual storytelling. It's not a matter of spacing it out, it's about when it's employed and if it feels justified. I personally just plain don't like that style. I think it looks ugly.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:05 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:17 am But if YYH had just continued forward for hundreds of more episodes, would it have been able to handle its cast of characters as well as it did?
As Julie said, it all depends on the writer. In Togashi's case, he ended Yu Yu Hakusho when he did because he was losing interest due to stress of weekly Shonen Jump deadlines. It's possibly the quality of his work would have suffered across the board just because his heart was no longer in it. If this wasn't the case, I don't necessarily think the amount of episodes/stories would have made the character dynamics suffer, no, but alas it's speculation.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:07 pm

I never much cared for Naruto. I think it just got worse and worse as it went on.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:00 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:05 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:17 am But if YYH had just continued forward for hundreds of more episodes, would it have been able to handle its cast of characters as well as it did?
As Julie said, it all depends on the writer. In Togashi's case, he ended Yu Yu Hakusho when he did because he was losing interest due to stress of weekly Shonen Jump deadlines. It's possibly the quality of his work would have suffered across the board just because his heart was no longer in it. If this wasn't the case, I don't necessarily think the amount of episodes/stories would have made the character dynamics suffer, no, but alas it's speculation.
Every story has a natural conclusion, and no matter how passionate or psychologically healthy the writer(s) are, after a certain point, the story reaches its end and going past it is counterproductive.
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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:04 pm

ABED wrote: Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:00 pm Every story has a natural conclusion, and no matter how passionate or psychologically healthy the writer(s) are, after a certain point, the story reaches its end and going past it is counterproductive.
On that end, would you say Dragon Ball (Z) went past it's natural conclusion, or that it ended no sooner than it should have, with Goku and Uub flying off? Not saying there's a right or wrong response to this, just curious.

Personally, I'd argue it's still a credit to Togashi and Yu Yu Hakusho over Dragon Ball for ending at its natural point/before there was any noticeable decline in storytelling. I like the the Buu saga, but I don't think the magic was there. Even the Cell saga was a drop from what came before, imho, although I don't necessarily think Dragon Ball should have ended in the Frieza saga.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Are there other shonen you acknowledge as better written than Dragon Ball?

Post by ABED » Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:11 pm

I don't know what world where anyone lives in where someone could honestly believe a 10 year weekly story ended too soon.

Even though I think DB probably should've ended sooner, ending with Goku excited about the future bc there are more mountains to climb is as proper a place to end the story as any since it's in line with the central theme of the story. That said, it didn't need to take 10 years to get there.

YYH was about 112 episodes to DB's 600+. The chances of it not overstaying its welcome are much higher
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