How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by McDonaldsGuy » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:33 pm

The problem with the Buu saga is escalation.

The Pilaf Saga, it was a simple doofy bad guy. Then it escalated to an entire army for the RR Army Saga. How do you top the strongest army in the world? Go outside the world and bring a Demon King into it.

But after that, you have to look past the world and you bring in aliens from a warrior race. How do you top that? Simple: the main bad guy is now the strongest being in the galaxy that owned that warrior race. Now it's almost impossible to escalate, but Toriyama managed it: put all the powers of these beings into one monster in Cell.

After that, how do you top that? Now are stuck. Majin Buu IMO is just another "OMG He's super strong!" It just didn't feel natural. So how would I change this? Simple:

Make Majin Buu more magical based. This is likely the original intention ("Bibbidi Babbidi Buu"). I would have Buu's powers be more rooted in magic/dimensions/etc. etc. than just pure power. There are signs of this with Buu, such as turning people into chocolate. But I would have his biggest threat be based on magic. Like use a lot of Janemba powers for Buu. I'd also rip off a lot of Guldo's power for Buu.

Now of course, Buu would still be super powerful, and we'd get some awesome fights with Vegetto/Gotenks/Mystic Gohan/SSJ3 Goku. But to beat him, it would take a lot more out of the box thinking.

I like a lot of ideas here too, specifically keeping Goku dead (outside the 24 hours). Also, have death mean something for once! DBGT gets a lot of flak, but it at least let Piccolo go with some dignity.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:34 pm

McDonaldsGuy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:33 pm The problem with the Buu saga is escalation.
The Boo saga has a lot of problems, but this isn't one of them in my view.

I disagree that the series was about escalating the whole time. It happened from time to time, but not deliberately. Toriyama wasn't trying to top anything, he was just trying to come up with different ideas each time. If things escalated it was because of the nature of storytelling and because it's a martial arts fantasy.

I don't see how the Boo arc is any different than the Cell arc in this context. Both are about coming up with new ideas for the story and don't necessarily build upon what came before. Freeza to Cell isn't much of an escalation either, it's just Toriyama needing new ideas.

McDonaldsGuy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:33 pm Make Majin Buu more magical based. This is likely the original intention ("Bibbidi Babbidi Buu"). I would have Buu's powers be more rooted in magic/dimensions/etc. etc. than just pure power. There are signs of this with Buu, such as turning people into chocolate. But I would have his biggest threat be based on magic. Like use a lot of Janemba powers for Buu. I'd also rip off a lot of Guldo's power for Buu.

Now of course, Buu would still be super powerful, and we'd get some awesome fights with Vegetto/Gotenks/Mystic Gohan/SSJ3 Goku. But to beat him, it would take a lot more out of the box thinking.
Majin Boo is already magic-based. He's a genie created by a sorcerer. We also see his ability to regenerate as well as healing powers and absorption. There were plenty of other magical elements throughout the arc. Too much "out of the box thinking" and it's no longer Dragon Ball. It comes down to pure power because it's a fighting manga.

McDonaldsGuy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:33 pm Also, have death mean something for once! DBGT gets a lot of flak, but it at least let Piccolo go with some dignity.
And that's one of the reasons it should get flak. Give death too much "meaning" and then it's no longer Dragon Ball. It's not that kind of series.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by Cipher » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:41 pm

I wouldn’t touch it.
McDonaldsGuy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:33 pm After that, how do you top that? Now are stuck. Majin Buu IMO is just another "OMG He's super strong!" It just didn't feel natural. So how would I change this? Simple:
Majin Boo’s a threat to all existence, killed most of the high gods, and the remaining one has to come to Earth himself to find a way to stop him. In the midst of the arc you have Vegeta and Goku realizing they’re the strongest beings to ever exist (ignoring Boo himself and the much later addition of Beerus, after the original series has wrapped).

I think the escalation holds up fine through the original run, with, if anything, Cell being the outlier in scaling the scope back to Earth.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:29 am

McDonaldsGuy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:33 pm The problem with the Buu saga is escalation.

The Pilaf Saga, it was a simple doofy bad guy. Then it escalated to an entire army for the RR Army Saga. How do you top the strongest army in the world? Go outside the world and bring a Demon King into it.

But after that, you have to look past the world and you bring in aliens from a warrior race. How do you top that? Simple: the main bad guy is now the strongest being in the galaxy that owned that warrior race. Now it's almost impossible to escalate, but Toriyama managed it: put all the powers of these beings into one monster in Cell.

After that, how do you top that? Now are stuck. Majin Buu IMO is just another "OMG He's super strong!" It just didn't feel natural. So how would I change this? Simple:

Make Majin Buu more magical based.


I’m gonna be honest, I don’t see how your solution fixed the problem you have with lack of escalation.

How is Boo being magic based (which he already kind of is?) proper escalation from Cell being a DNA Chimera of all the past fighters?


Besides Boo is far more powerful than Cell as seen when he turns Dabura, Cell’s equal, into a cookie and eats him. There’s your escalation right there.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by McDonaldsGuy » Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:50 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:29 am
McDonaldsGuy wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:33 pm The problem with the Buu saga is escalation.

The Pilaf Saga, it was a simple doofy bad guy. Then it escalated to an entire army for the RR Army Saga. How do you top the strongest army in the world? Go outside the world and bring a Demon King into it.

But after that, you have to look past the world and you bring in aliens from a warrior race. How do you top that? Simple: the main bad guy is now the strongest being in the galaxy that owned that warrior race. Now it's almost impossible to escalate, but Toriyama managed it: put all the powers of these beings into one monster in Cell.

After that, how do you top that? Now are stuck. Majin Buu IMO is just another "OMG He's super strong!" It just didn't feel natural. So how would I change this? Simple:

Make Majin Buu more magical based.


I’m gonna be honest, I don’t see how your solution fixed the problem you have with lack of escalation.

How is Boo being magic based (which he already kind of is?) proper escalation from Cell being a DNA Chimera of all the past fighters?


Besides Boo is far more powerful than Cell as seen when he turns Dabura, Cell’s equal, into a cookie and eats him. There’s your escalation right there.
That's the problem. He's just another "Omg he's so strong we must upgrade to beat him!" again. That's not what I mean by escalation. Piccolo wasn't an escalation from the RR Army because he was strong, but because we went from an Earthly army to Demons. Cell was an escalation from Freeza because he was a combination of all the fighters. Not simply because he was more powerful.

Well let me ask you this: how do you escalate from Cell? He's a combination of Freeza, Goku, and Vegeta. Right there it's virtually impossible.

You could make any character to be much stronger. That's not compelling when it's the 59359th time, and that was a huge problem with Buu. Also, he would still be very powerful as I said - we still want to see awesome fights with Vegetto, SSJ3 Goku, Mystic Gohan, etc. etc.

And the reason I chose magic/dimension warping is because of his name ("Bibbidi Babbidi Buu") and because they've did that before (Guldo, Janemba, even Buu to an extent).

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by McDonaldsGuy » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:07 am

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:34 pm The Boo saga has a lot of problems, but this isn't one of them in my view.

I disagree that the series was about escalating the whole time. It happened from time to time, but not deliberately. Toriyama wasn't trying to top anything, he was just trying to come up with different ideas each time. If things escalated it was because of the nature of storytelling and because it's a martial arts fantasy.
If anything, that would prove my point even more so, wouldn't it? Buu wasn't as compelling because it didn't as natural as a progression. He was just another "super strong dude" that was a threat to everyone, but it didn't seem as natural. We've already seen Demons before (Piccolo), strongest guy in the galaxy (Freeza), etc. etc. With Buu, it was "been there, done that." One (likely) didn't get that feeling with Freeza or Cell.
MyVisionity wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:34 pm I don't see how the Boo arc is any different than the Cell arc in this context. Both are about coming up with new ideas for the story and don't necessarily build upon what came before. Freeza to Cell isn't much of an escalation either, it's just Toriyama needing new ideas.
How is combining all the strongest fighters into one being not an escalation? The only way to top the strongest being in the galaxy is to combine his DNA with other warrior DNA and CREATE a stronger being.
MyVisionity wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:34 pm Majin Boo is already magic-based. He's a genie created by a sorcerer. We also see his ability to regenerate as well as healing powers and absorption. There were plenty of other magical elements throughout the arc. Too much "out of the box thinking" and it's no longer Dragon Ball. It comes down to pure power because it's a fighting manga.
I disagree. By the time Raditz arrived - heck, you could argue the second Piccolo Daimao showed up - it went far beyond just a simple martial arts story. We even got time travel the saga right before this one. Time travel is far, far weirder than magic/dimension warping. We've seen that before - Boss Rabbit turning people into carrots; Guldo controlling time; etc. etc. We've never seen time travel (AFAIK) before Trunks.

"Out of the box thinking" is what made DBZ so great. There is no indication Goku (or Piccolo) are aliens pre-Raditz arriving. It's that kind of thinking that brought Dragon Ball to a whole new level. Bringing up time travel again, that was out of the box thinking. Now, you can disagree if it's too much thinking "outside the box," but there's nothing wrong with it for Dragon Ball.
MyVisionity wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:34 pm And that's one of the reasons it should get flak. Give death too much "meaning" and then it's no longer Dragon Ball. It's not that kind of series.
I disagree here, but this is just gonna be a difference of opinion.
Cipher wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:41 pm I think the escalation holds up fine through the original run, with, if anything, Cell being the outlier in scaling the scope back to Earth.
One could argue Toriyama increased the scope by using time travel.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Apr 15, 2021 11:47 am

Majin Buu is like a magical force of nature, created to be something to that effect. Then Toriyama explained that he wasn't created, only summoned because he already existed, so even better, he was something the universe had around eons ago.
That escalation works perfectly in my opinion, we are now going for past, inactive threats after the amalgamation of every contemporary threat. After exhausting every possible contemporary threat, we get a former threat that couldn't be killed, only contained. It's also good escalation because it required godly involvement, Freeza ain't no thang for the gods, Dabura/Cell are at a level that keeps them alert, and Buu knocks it right out of the park.

And following up on Toriyama's retcon, it's not only a new threat, as in another strong dude, it's a legendary creature that seems to be part of creation, perhaps a by product of it.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by Majin Buu » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:32 pm

McDonaldsGuy wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:50 am That's the problem. He's just another "Omg he's so strong we must upgrade to beat him!" again.
And Cell wasn't that why?

Amalgamated bio warrior=Good escalation; but evil genie with borderline reality warping abilities="Just another super strong dude"?

Your logic doesn't make sense here. It comes off like you're making up a problem that isn't there.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by 90sDBZ » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:42 pm

I honestly love it as is, but one thing that could have been handled better is the way Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo die while unconscious. Instead of having them be absorbed, maybe have it so Super Buu straight up kills them in battle, prompting Goku and Vegeta to return hungry for revenge before fusing.

Having Gohan simply be overpowered and killed after a long hard battle without the absorptions at least wouldn't make him look like an idiot. He'd die a heroic death, which would make the Z Sword stuff feel less anti-climactic. It's crazy to think he went the whole of Z without dying only to be finished off in his sleep.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by Desassina » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:47 pm

I... wouldn't change a thing? Perhaps keep the End of Z in its original form instead of introducing the extra panels with Oob on the Kinto'un and Vegeta's change in mindset.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by McDonaldsGuy » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:55 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:32 pm
McDonaldsGuy wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:50 am That's the problem. He's just another "Omg he's so strong we must upgrade to beat him!" again.
And Cell wasn't that why?

Amalgamated bio warrior=Good escalation; but evil genie with borderline reality warping abilities="Just another super strong dude"?

Your logic doesn't make sense here. It comes off like you're making up a problem that isn't there.
Cell was different for many reasons:

- Time travel aspect
- Ability to use our heroes techniques
- Being created from the DNA of the strongest warriors in the universe (which is how he was able to topple Freeza)
- The Androids (17 and 18) DID have that "OMG they're so strong we must upgrade to beat them!" problem that Cell solved

Saiyan/Freeza saga introduced space travel; Cell saga introduced time travel. Space and time! Toriyama should've added to that, with other dimensions and all that jazz. Instead it's just another super strong dude that isn't unique at all.

Majin Buu was just a "been there, done that" bad guy, and I do think that was a problem, and I think the audience saw right through it. I like the idea of Buu, just not the execution. He could've been something cool and unique. As mentioned earlier, each saga was a GREAT escalation from the previous. Goofy gang >>> world's strongest army >>>> strong Demons >>>> Warriors from outer space >>>>> strongest being in the galaxy >>>>> DNA creation of the strongest beings ever.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by slifer875 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:25 pm

1. keep videl, shin, picoloo and gohan as the main characters of the saga, don't make videl give up on fighting after ONE fight against a minion, have her learn ki after her defeat (ki tecniques) and help against buu, don't make picoloo the babysitter of two brats, have him and shin try to learn the spell that can seal majin buu.

2 Instead of "BIG NUMBER GO UP!" make the entire saga a chase for a book/secret page on how to seal or awaken buu, have buu go to sleep after killing dabura and vegeta, and make this a chase like the androids/cell/goods guys story in the cell arc, with multiple groups searching for connected goals.

3 Have goku nearly killed off buu by himself but his time in earth runs out at the last momment, he doesn't teach fusion to the kids but teaches gohan teletransportation, after saying his goodbye to everyone goku doesn't get involve anymore in the story from this point foward.

4 the majin vegeta thing is stupid and doesn't happened, he gets murdered by buu, thats it the end, vegeta doesn't deserve to be treated as a hero even if we don't count the majin thing, he is still a child murderer, it would be fitting for him to be killed off by a child-like opponent.

5 no mystic/ultimate ritual power up or fusion, babidi finds the missing page/book on how to awaken buu and burns it so no one else can ever find the spell to seal buu.

6 since buu is pretty much inmmortal, the group learns tecniques and makes plans to seal him away, picoloo and tenshinhan uses mafuba, gohan and videl have the idea to seal him in the time chamber, shin learns the spell that sealed the elder kai in the sword, have bulma trying to seal him off inside a capsule while the rest distracts him, If you really want goku back ONLY for the final battle have goku and the rest trying to seal him off in the fountain of blood in hell (like how cell and frieza got trapped there in the filler), or make it one final search for the dragon balls so they can wish back the missing page/book back (in a similar way how the final battle in jojo part 5 was mostly the search for the arrow).
Your choice on how to beat him, i just don't want genkidama, fusion or "BIG NUMBER GO UP!" being the solutions.

7 after buu's defeat, the final two episodes would be about a young pan that wants be a martial artist and is traveling the world, she is fighting the uranai baba tournament, her final opponent is a mysterious guy with a cat mask that seems to know her, its reveal the masked man is goku, he wisher her good luck on her journey and returns to the otherwolrd, THE END.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by Majin Buu » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:39 pm

McDonaldsGuy wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:55 pm Majin Buu was just a "been there, done that" bad guy, and I do think that was a problem, and I think the audience saw right through it. I like the idea of Buu, just not the execution. He could've been something cool and unique. As mentioned earlier, each saga was a GREAT escalation from the previous. Goofy gang >>> world's strongest army >>>> strong Demons >>>> Warriors from outer space >>>>> strongest being in the galaxy >>>>> DNA creation of the strongest beings ever.
You still haven't explained why being an evil genie with near-reality warping abilities isn't adequate escalation. You're just making flimsy arguments that don't hold up under any scrutiny (especially considering most of the people responding to you are picking apart your statements). Again, it feels like you're making up problems.

With Cell, I can easily argue that he's "just another strong guy" that isn't anything cool (outside of his design) or unique. No unique attacks of his own (yes, he's made of up other people's DNA, but doesn't mean he can't have his own attacks as well), bland characterization with no unique personality traits to make him stand out from the previous antagonists, and loses any kind of motivation after he gains his perfect form. He's the closest to a "generic doomsday villain" the original story had.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by McDonaldsGuy » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:23 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:39 pm
McDonaldsGuy wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:55 pm Majin Buu was just a "been there, done that" bad guy, and I do think that was a problem, and I think the audience saw right through it. I like the idea of Buu, just not the execution. He could've been something cool and unique. As mentioned earlier, each saga was a GREAT escalation from the previous. Goofy gang >>> world's strongest army >>>> strong Demons >>>> Warriors from outer space >>>>> strongest being in the galaxy >>>>> DNA creation of the strongest beings ever.
You still haven't explained why being an evil genie with near-reality warping abilities isn't adequate escalation. You're just making flimsy arguments that don't hold up under any scrutiny (especially considering most of the people responding to you are picking apart your statements). Again, it feels like you're making up problems.

With Cell, I can easily argue that he's "just another strong guy" that isn't anything cool (outside of his design) or unique. No unique attacks of his own (yes, he's made of up other people's DNA, but doesn't mean he can't have his own attacks as well), bland characterization with no unique personality traits to make him stand out from the previous antagonists, and loses any kind of motivation after he gains his perfect form. He's the closest to a "generic doomsday villain" the original story had.
Buu wasn't that evil genie, which is my point. That actually would've been cool - an evil genie/wizard that was pretty much created with the universe. Kaioshin tells Gohan et al that Buu is ultra powerful, not that Buu will defeat them with sorcery or warping physics and all that. Let me clarify: I am not saying Buu shouldn't be super powerful. In my Buu Saga, we would get epic fights with SSJ3 Goku, Gotenks, Vegetto, etc. etc.

And no, Cell isn't just another strong guy. Once again, he was created from the DNA of all the great warriors - from Freeza to Vegeta to Goku to Nappa. Androids 17 and 18 could be argued that they were just another strong threat. Remember, the escalation isn't just an origin story - but why it escalates that. In fact, correct me if I am wrong, but it was the editor that told Toriyama people wouldn't want 17 and 18 as the main antagonists, so he created Cell.

I'm not talking about his personality or characterization here - but why is he a bigger threat than Freeza? Toriyama could've taken the easy route... simply make someone stronger! But he didn't. That's one of the reasons Dragon Ball is so great. It's one of the reasons many Hollywood sequels fail - they went bigger and more! But not better. Majin Buu was just a retread to many people which is why I think they lost interest (well, one of the reasons). The fact the Great Saiyaman Saga did monster ratings in both Japan and the USA is proof people were ready for more DBZ.

The fact the Buu saga didn't get a TV special says a lot if you ask me. There just wasn't much depth with Buu. With Freeza you got the Bardock special, and Cell you got the Trunks special. Buu should've been more than just a super powerful dude who gets released from his shell. As I said, Buu is a great concept. There was so many cool ideas Toriyama could've did with Buu.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Apr 15, 2021 7:40 pm

McDonaldsGuy wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:23 pm In fact, correct me if I am wrong, but it was the editor that told Toriyama people wouldn't want 17 and 18 as the main antagonists, so he created Cell.
Toriyama’s former editor made fun of Toriyama for making the would be big bads “two brats” after already making fun of him for making the original intended big bads “a fatso and and old geezer” but he never told him people wouldn’t want 17 and 18 as main antagonist.
Majin Buu was just a retread to many people which is why I think they lost interest (well, one of the reasons
He was a fat tub of lard that turned people into candy. How is that retread?
The fact the Buu saga didn't get a TV special says a lot if you ask me. There just wasn't much depth with Buu. With Freeza you got the Bardock special, and Cell you got the Trunks special
Cell was nowhere near the Trunks special so I’m not quite sure what you’re going on about. A tv special not being made in the Buu saga doesn’t mean anything. Bardock’s special was more about exploring who Goku’s father was and the end of planet Vegeta. It had nothing to do with Freeza really. Trunks special was more about expanding the events that led to Trunks going back in time.
. Buu should've been more than just a super powerful dude who gets released from his shell..
He was more than a super powerful dude who got released from a ball. But okay.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:28 am

Hard to say. From a business standpoint Super Saiyan 3 pushed merch sales and the moment itself is iconic. Though writing wise it feels kinda odd overall in execution. I sit here and think about things that I'd personally like, but would it sell merch like DBZ did? No way of ever knowing and I feel that's Shonen Jump / Toei's biggest goal is to achieve that.

*Edit*

I had written a lot of changes I wanted but not only am I not in the mood to upset other users on this forum with my opinion, I don't believe I am capable of creating iconic moments from a forum post so I'll just leave it at the statement above.
We the ones

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by Majin Buu » Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:27 am

McDonaldsGuy wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:23 pm Buu wasn't that evil genie, which is my point. That actually would've been cool - an evil genie/wizard that was pretty much created with the universe. Kaioshin tells Gohan et al that Buu is ultra powerful, not that Buu will defeat them with sorcery or warping physics and all that. Let me clarify: I am not saying Buu shouldn't be super powerful. In my Buu Saga, we would get epic fights with SSJ3 Goku, Gotenks, Vegetto, etc. etc.
Most fans agree he's a genie, Toriyama himself has said he's based on a genie. You're the only fan I've seen who outright argues that he's not.
Once again, he was created from the DNA of all the great warriors - from Freeza to Vegeta to Goku to Nappa.
And looking at it, nothing much really comes of that set up aside from him using other people's attacks a few times, regeneration, and everyone being weirded out by his ki being similar to multiple other characters (and that doesn't factor into anything past his debut). The anime made more use of him performing other people's techniques than Toriyama did, but even then, it amounts to nothing more than him just using attacks that he didn't use in the manga.
And no, Cell isn't just another strong guy.
I'm not talking about his personality or characterization here
Well, I am. His generic personality and lack of unique attacks puts him far closer to "just another strong guy" than Buu.
- but why is he a bigger threat than Freeza? Toriyama could've taken the easy route... simply make someone stronger! But he didn't.
Yes he did. That's what Toriyama did for every single arc from Piccolo Daimao onward. It's disingenuous to claim otherwise.
Majin Buu was just a retread
Buu has unique qualities that Cell doesn't. Some of his abilities are indeed retreads like his regeneration and absorption (though Toriyama doesn't have them function the same way as Cell's did so he at least puts a different spin on them), but saying he's "just a retread" is an oversimplification that requires you to ignore the ways in which he is unique.
The fact the Buu saga didn't get a TV special says a lot if you ask me.
And I think that says nothing at all. The Saiyan arc didn't have a TV special and it's one of the best arcs.
There just wasn't much depth with Buu. With Freeza you got the Bardock special, and Cell you got the Trunks special.
You're equating depth with factors that are irrelevant.

Honestly, your logic comes off as working backwards from your conclusions. You believe that the Buu arc is bad so you'll argue for any point that says that; even when the logic behind that point is flimsy at best, and at worst, doesn't add up at all and effectively amounts to making up flaws the arc doesn't have.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by McDonaldsGuy » Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:02 am

Majin Buu wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:27 am Most fans agree he's a genie, Toriyama himself has said he's based on a genie. You're the only fan I've seen who outright argues that he's not.
EXACTLY what I am saying. He should've went full bore in making him a genie. Not hold back. It's a cool and unique idea that would work in DBZ.
Majin Buu wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:27 am And looking at it, nothing much really comes of that set up aside from him using other people's attacks a few times, regeneration, and everyone being weirded out by his ki being similar to multiple other characters (and that doesn't factor into anything past his debut). The anime made more use of him performing other people's techniques than Toriyama did, but even then, it amounts to nothing more than him just using attacks that he didn't use in the manga.
I am not debating execution, but escalation. Cell is my favorite villain, but that doesn't matter. He was the perfect (lol) follow up to Freeza because how else do you follow up the strongest guy in the galaxy?

I don't feel Buu is the perfect follow up to Cell, because he's just too generic. We've been through the whole Demon stuff before (Piccolo). As you said, a genie/wizard was a cool idea but Toriyama barely touched on that. The power people remember most from Buu is his ability to turn people into chocolate, so that's proof that people were open to a more genie/wizard based villain. I would've loved to see more magic based attacks like that.
Majin Buu wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:27 am Yes he did. That's what Toriyama did for every single arc from Piccolo Daimao onward. It's disingenuous to claim otherwise.
How do you top an evil Demon that nearly ruled the world? Simple: go to outer space and bring aliens into it (Vegeta, Nappa, Raditz). That's what I mean. Toriyama didn't simply bring someone stronger out of nowhere. There was reason to it. He COULD have made someone on Earth just stronger, but no one would have bought it. Toriyama COULD'VE followed up Freeza with an even stronger being, but no one would buy it, just as the editors didn't buy Androids 17 and 18 as the main villains. So he uses time travel + biological experiments instead and that was a great idea. Buu doesn't have that outside thinking, and if you think he does, I'd like to hear why you think that.
Majin Buu wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:27 am And I think that says nothing at all. The Saiyan arc didn't have a TV special and it's one of the best arcs.
Well it was too short and they didn't start doing them til Freeza, but you could argue Bardock is also a Saiyan Saga TV special.

I do think the fact Buu didn't get a TV special makes my point even more because what could you do with it? There was no escalation, no personal stakes compared to Bardock and Trunks History. Buu was just another big strong scary bad guy and there's not much to work with there, but with Cell you had time travel and Freeza you had space.

If I could remake the Buu saga, I would bring in more personal stakes so there could be a TV Special.

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:45 pm

McDonaldsGuy wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:02 am
EXACTLY what I am saying. He should've went full bore in making him a genie. Not hold back. It's a cool and unique idea that would work in DBZ.
Being from eons ago. Sealed away. Slave to another weaker being (until he revolts) seemingly endless power. Arabic inspired design.

Exactly what more did you want?


I don't feel Buu is the perfect follow up to Cell, because he's just too generic.
He’s a pink bubblegum demon genie with a child mentality that turns people into candy. Please explain how that’s generic.

You’re kind of just throwing words around here.
We've been through the whole Demon stuff before (Piccolo)
By that logic you might as well rip into Freeza being an alien warlord because we just got that in the prior arc with Vegeta.

But that would be dumb because Vegeta and Freeza are entirely different characters beyond that basic archetype.

Like Piccolo and Boo.

The power people remember most from Buu is his ability to turn people into chocolate, so that's proof that people were open to a more genie/wizard based villain. I would've loved to see more magic based attacks like that.
Yeah because it was wacky and out there especially at a point where the series had gotten much more serious up until that point. It’s not proof of anything.

How do you top an evil Demon that nearly ruled the world? Simple: go to outer space and bring aliens into it (Vegeta, Nappa, Raditz)
Even though it wasn’t stated outright until the Saiyan arc the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament had Toriyama foreshadowing Piccolo and Kami were aliens so this isn’t as strong of a claim as you think it is. Toriyama basically did aliens as the evil villain for 3 consecutive arcs.



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just as the editors didn't buy Androids 17 and 18 as the main villains
Because he thought it was laughable making the big bads two punk teenagers. Not because he thought they were thematically a poor follow up to Freeza
. Buu doesn't have that outside thinking, and if you think he does, I'd like to hear why you think that.

Again, ancient bubblegum demon genie with magic candy changing powers who killed most of the universes top gods.

Actually you know what the fact that the series brought in a hierarchy of Gods at a higher place than Dai Kaio and then said Boo murdered most of them would actually be escalation if your definition wasn’t so damn arbitrary.

Well it was too short and they didn't start doing them til Freeza, but you could argue Bardock is also a Saiyan Saga TV special.
It’s a Dragon Ball Z tv special. It’s not specific to any arc it even uses Bardock’s future sight abilities to make a clip show from the original Dragon Ball and the Saiyan arc
I do think the fact Buu didn't get a TV special makes my point even more because what could you do with it? There was no escalation, no personal stakes compared to Bardock and Trunks History. Buu was just another big strong scary bad guy and there's not much to work with there, but with Cell you had time travel and Freeza you had space.
No, because it’s random nonsense and Cell isn’t even in the Trunks special .

The Bardock special exist because Koyama wanted to do a story about Goku’s father. The Trunks special exist because there was a story to tell about how Trunks ended up going back in time and letting viewers see things that were only referred to before. Neither special exist because Freeza and Cell were just super cool villains who needed their own special

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Re: How would you remake and rewrite the Majin Buu Saga?

Post by McDonaldsGuy » Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:12 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:45 pm Again, ancient bubblegum demon genie with magic candy changing powers who killed most of the universes top gods.
This is my entire point - Toriyama should've 100% committed to this. The fact you keep bringing up only his magic candy abilities shows that he did not. It also shows that a magic based villain would've been awesome because the candy technique sticks out.

There was so much you could do with magical/dimension warping abilities. Instead we just got another super powerful evil dude Goku must beat. Another example is fusion. This was also somewhat of a magical ability that was really cool.

Of course, Buu still be super powerful and we'd get awesome fight scenes with SSJ3 Goku and Vegetto. I am NOT saying Buu should only be magic based, just primarily and his main techniques.

And "killed most of the universes top gods" is a problem again, simply because Buu did it just because he's super powerful. That characterization could be done ANY time, which is what I am saying. You could top any villain by just making the next one "bigger and badder." What made DB/Z unique was Toriyama didn't just do that. There were reasons and logic behind why the threat was bigger and badder.
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:45 pm Actually you know what the fact that the series brought in a hierarchy of Gods at a higher place than Dai Kaio and then said Boo murdered most of them would actually be escalation if your definition wasn’t so damn arbitrary.
This "he's so powerful he kills gods!" is just lazy thinking and the people called him out for it. When thinking of the next bad guy, all he thought was "Something so powerful he can knock SSJ2 Gohan out with one blast!" That's not proper escalation, because anybody can write that. It's EASY to top a previous bad guy by just creating a new powerful one.

As my previous example, if Toriyama wanted to, he could've followed up Piccolo with just another more powerful Earth warrior. But he didn't - he escalated properly by going to outer space.

Cell isn't more powerful than Freeza because he appears after Freeza. He's more powerful than Freeza because he's a biological creation using the DNA of those powerful fighters. NO ONE would have believed someone more powerful than Freeza just popping up like Buu did. They needed an explanation for that escalation.
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:45 pm It’s a Dragon Ball Z tv special. It’s not specific to any arc
It aired during the Freeza saga and is clearly meant as a backstory to that.
MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:45 pm The Bardock special exist because Koyama wanted to do a story about Goku’s father. The Trunks special exist because there was a story to tell about how Trunks ended up going back in time and letting viewers see things that were only referred to before. Neither special exist because Freeza and Cell were just super cool villains who needed their own special
Why didn't they do one for the Buu saga then?

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