Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:29 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:48 pm A 30 year old man hooking up with a teenager is probably the most questionable thing about Kuririn and 18's relationship for me.
Are you seriously conjecturing that android 18 is a teenager? The android twins were very clearly young adults.
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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:31 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:53 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:41 pm Bro, this is cringe. What about Kuririn dynamic with #18 is anything like "simping" or "nice guy" behaviour? If it's not about winning favours for sex then what is it? It feels like this could apply to literally anyone in history who's felt a romantic or sexual attraction to someone.
He jeopardized the safety of everyone on the planet because he was into 18. That's simping on a level that even Pokimane subs would look down on.
Yes, he's attracted to her, but what's so bad about that?
I don't think there's anything wrong with what Krillin did or why he did it. I only mentioned it because the person I was replying to made the claim that Krillin wasn't motivated by a desire for sex. This is about setting the record straight, not condemning Krillin.
"Simp" and "Nice Guy" are pejorative terms. It at least sounds like you're mocking him for having human emotions (god, I'm saying this on behalf of a fictional character, I need to get a grip...) While he's toiling over the decision, he thinks about when she showed him affection and how it would be completely wrong to betray her after that. As Masenko said, he wasn't just thinking about manipulating her to get in her guts, which is a hallmark of simping and niceguy behaviour.

He could've kept the remote around to detonate #18 in case Cell got to her but everyone knew Cell was the bigger fish to fry. Making peace with the other Androids was ultimately a sensible move. In doing this, he also made friends with #16, who proved more instrumental in Cell's defeat than the other two.

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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:31 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:29 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:48 pm A 30 year old man hooking up with a teenager is probably the most questionable thing about Kuririn and 18's relationship for me.
Are you seriously conjecturing that android 18 is a teenager? The android twins were very clearly young adults.
The twins are both suppose to be teenagers when they first appear. And on top of that, they supposedly never age.

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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:00 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:29 pm With a magical wish-granting dragon in front of them? probably something for themselves, I guess.
Doesn't sound very white knight-ey but ok.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:31 pm "Simp" and "Nice Guy" are pejorative terms. It at least sounds like you're mocking him for having human emotions (god, I'm saying this on behalf of a fictional character, I need to get a grip...) While he's toiling over the decision, he thinks about when she showed him affection and how it would be completely wrong to betray her after that. As Masenko said, he wasn't just thinking about manipulating her to get in her guts, which is a hallmark of simping and niceguy behaviour.

He could've kept the remote around to detonate #18 in case Cell got to her but everyone knew Cell was the bigger fish to fry. Making peace with the other Androids was ultimately a sensible move. In doing this, he also made friends with #16, who proved more instrumental in Cell's defeat than the other two.
I don't like the terms but they're what we have. Like Mary Sue. It's there. We might as well use them.

And like I said, I don't think Krillin did anything wrong. His motivations made perfect sense and were immediately relatable. What right does he have to snuff out the life of someone because of something that might happen? And his attraction to her keeps it from being an abstract dilemma, making it something personal to him, the character. It's a great scene.
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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:15 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:31 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:29 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:48 pm A 30 year old man hooking up with a teenager is probably the most questionable thing about Kuririn and 18's relationship for me.
Are you seriously conjecturing that android 18 is a teenager? The android twins were very clearly young adults.
The twins are both suppose to be teenagers when they first appear. And on top of that, they supposedly never age.
Nothing was said about them being teenagers, just delinquents.
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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:31 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:00 pm

Doesn't sound very white knight-ey but ok.
Pretty sure the point of a white knight is virtue signaling in front of an oppressed group for bonus points. He didn’t even know 18 was listening when he made the wish.
I don't like the terms but they're what we have. Like Mary Sue. It's there. We might as well use them.
They’re completely avoidable terms especially when talking about a character they don’t even apply to.

And Mary Sue has lost all meaning since it’s pretty much used for “this character, usually female, is good at things” it’s just a weak ass criticism at this point.

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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:00 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:15 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 7:31 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:29 pm Are you seriously conjecturing that android 18 is a teenager? The android twins were very clearly young adults.
The twins are both suppose to be teenagers when they first appear. And on top of that, they supposedly never age.
Nothing was said about them being teenagers, just delinquents.
"Delinquent" implies juvenile behavior. But aside from that, they are referred to as kids from the beginning, with terms such as shounen, onna no ko, and gaki thrown about. They look and sound like adolescents. I think it's clear enough.

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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:15 pm

If 17 and 18 are supposed to be teenagers, it is absolutely lost in translation.
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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:03 am

Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:15 pm If 17 and 18 are supposed to be teenagers, it is absolutely lost in translation.
And they do age.
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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:46 am

Grimlock wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:03 am
Cursed Lemon wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:15 pm If 17 and 18 are supposed to be teenagers, it is absolutely lost in translation.
And they do age.
That interview says that they age slowly, meaning at a slower rate than normal humans.

However, the entry for #18 in Daizenshū 7 simply states that she "doesn't age"/is "eternally youthful". So I take it that while she may age, it happens so slowly that you wouldn't ever really notice it just by looking at her.

That said, the actress' voice seems to get deeper and more mature sounding after the Cell Saga, possibly because they wanted to portray her as being somewhat older since she was married and a mother.

As for the teenage component being "lost in translation", I think it's probably more that the story doesn't dwell on it very much. Like, we don't see them going to high school or hanging out doing the typical teenage stuff. So it's easier to overlook it.

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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:18 am

I don't think it was lost in translation. Even in the dub it's pretty clear that 17 and 18 were in their mid to late teens. From the way they talk to their personalities to their first acts after fighting the Z gang (they rob a clothing store and steal a van! that's teenage punk shit), there's not a lot of ambiguity about their maturity level. The twins are maybe a little bit more mature than Bulma was when she first set off with Goku on the first Dragon Ball hunt.

That said, I don't really think it's something to hold against Krillin. Sure, as a rule 30 year olds trying to hook up with girls in their late teens/early teens has shades of predatory behavior. Like they're trying to get as someone before they know better. But 18 is always presented as knowing better. She's assertive and in control, so it's not like at any point she'd fall for emotional/physical manipulation.

I can see why someone would. The age gap is pretty dramatic. But, as everyone in this fandom loves reminding me, these characters are selfish and primarily motivated by self interest so it's totally in keeping with the tone of the series for Krillinx18 to have some awkward shades to it.
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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:06 pm

I'm not sure intent to commit literal worldwide genocide really resonates as "oh those teenage rascals" for most viewers.
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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:30 pm

I think they were teenagers when Gero first captured them. By the time of the Android Saga they were probably in their early 20s but still had the same appearance they did as teenagers.
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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:33 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:06 pm I'm not sure intent to commit literal worldwide genocide really resonates as "oh those teenage rascals" for most viewers.
If worldwide genocide was their goal they did a lousy job of it. They spare the Z-gang after their fight, remind Krillin to look after them, 18 doesn't lay a hand on the clerk of the store she robs, and they disable the police cruiser following them (instead of just blowing them to bits).

Main timeline 17 and 18 aren't much like their bad timeline counterparts.
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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by MyVisionity » Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:34 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:18 am That said, I don't really think it's something to hold against Krillin. Sure, as a rule 30 year olds trying to hook up with girls in their late teens/early teens has shades of predatory behavior. Like they're trying to get as someone before they know better. But 18 is always presented as knowing better. She's assertive and in control, so it's not like at any point she'd fall for emotional/physical manipulation.

I can see why someone would. The age gap is pretty dramatic. But, as everyone in this fandom loves reminding me, these characters are selfish and primarily motivated by self interest so it's totally in keeping with the tone of the series for Krillinx18 to have some awkward shades to it.

18 even points out the age difference to Kuririn when she chews him out after the battle with Cell, calling him occhan/ossan(a middle-aged dude). So she knows what's up.

I agree though that a grown man being paired with a teenage girl is fitting for DB and is part of the series' charm, for better or worse.

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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:15 am

Age gap dating is a common thing though, sure an 18 year old dating a 30 something might seem fishy but it’s legal (and happens way more than you might think). Hell, Undertaker is 15 years older than Michele McCool, granted they were both well into adult hood when they started dating.
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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:52 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:15 am Age gap dating is a common thing though, sure an 18 year old dating a 30 something might seem fishy but it’s legal (and happens way more than you might think). Hell, Undertaker is 15 years older than Michele McCool, granted they were both well into adult hood when they started dating.
It might seem fishy because it is fishy. A 30 year old dating a barely legal teen is scuzzy and gross af.

As far as the Androids go I don’t think an age was ever specified for them so you can’t really make any calls either way on Kuririn and 18’s relationship.

17 and 18 do look young. But Kuririn also looks young for someone who is somewhere between 29-31 in the Cell saga

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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by ABED » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:24 am

Is he in his early 30s? I thought Kuririn was in his late 20s? He's about 19 at the 23rd TB, 24 when Raditz arrives, 25 when Nappa and Vegeta arrive, maybe 26 when Goku returns from Namek, and 29 if that against Cell.
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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:51 am

ABED wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:24 am Is he in his early 30s? I thought Kuririn was in his late 20s? He's about 19 at the 23rd TB, 24 when Raditz arrives, 25 when Nappa and Vegeta arrive, maybe 26 when Goku returns from Namek, and 29 if that against Cell.
Depending on Gohan’s age really. The anime specified him as 11 in his birthday episode which would make Kuririn 31. The manga had Gohan as 16 in the Boo arc making him 9 during Cell and Kuririn 29.

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Re: Most Overrated Character (Besides Goku and Vegeta)?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:06 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:15 am Age gap dating is a common thing though, sure an 18 year old dating a 30 something might seem fishy but it’s legal (and happens way more than you might think). Hell, Undertaker is 15 years older than Michele McCool, granted they were both well into adult hood when they started dating.
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ABED wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:24 am Is he in his early 30s? I thought Kuririn was in his late 20s? He's about 19 at the 23rd TB, 24 when Raditz arrives, 25 when Nappa and Vegeta arrive, maybe 26 when Goku returns from Namek, and 29 if that against Cell.
The events on Namek, cycling through the Namekian Dragon Balls (130 day cooldown period) and traveling to Namek (ten days to restore Kami's ship and around a month of actual travel time) add about ten months to the timeline. So Krillin's solidly 27 when Freeza arrives on Earth and 30 when the androids arrive.
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