Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Kid Buu » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:49 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:34 pm i frickin hate neon "genesis" evangelion
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:43 pm

Aim wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:22 am
FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:56 am
Aim wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:29 am
Oh no there’s a misunderstanding, I wasn’t referring to your countries dub, I was referring to the big screenings of DB Super during the ToP arc.

I agree with you, Funimation is a fucking cancer in the anime community. We need a company that at least tries to get things right, now that’s not to say everyone needs to sound exactly like the original, however it’s preferable to at least try capture the sound and spirit like with Nozawa.
In English, Kelamis channeled Nozawa the best. In Japanese, Michihiko Hagi channels her the best. Here's an example of his work - https://youtu.be/C03PEHSO1BQ?t=183
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Aim » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:22 am

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:43 pm
Aim wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:22 am
FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:56 am

In English, Kelamis channeled Nozawa the best. In Japanese, Michihiko Hagi channels her the best. Here's an example of his work - https://youtu.be/C03PEHSO1BQ?t=183
Can I ask you something?
...yes?
Have you seen this? This guy channels Nozawa the best, I wouldn’t be surprised if he ends up succeeding her.

In terms of Kelamis, he channeled her in screams the most, but wasn’t very good everywhere else. There’s a huge pool of potential out there, I don’t see why we should keep sticking to the same VA’s when there’s people who can possibly do it better.

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:39 pm

Well, there's a difference between an actor and an impressionist. I've seen some phenomenal impressions of cartoon characters like Peter Griffin, Homer Simpson, and counting that video above, yes, even Nozawa's Goku. Just because people can do great impressions doesn't necessarily mean they can act the parts well, though. The impressions I spoke of nailed the voices, but weren't able to convincingly portray the range of emotions and situations the character goes through.

That's why I'm just not a huge stickler for a dub voice sounding like the original voice. I understand that some people may want that, but for me it matters far, far more that they convincingly play the character, rather than replicate a certain voice. I'll take a voice that sounds different from the original but plays the character well over a voice that sounds exactly like the original but can't act any day. If a dub voice actor can perfectly replicate a voice from the original version, then...hey, cool. For real, that's cool. Not at all necessary, though.

It's also worth noting that even if some casting choices were deliberate on the part of the creators, we're not inside the creator's heads, so we don't know if they'd necessarily insist on every foreign language version having voices that sound like the originals, or that they thought the actors they picked were the only actors who could have done the roles justice. In fact, some of them are fine with the voices sounding different. One Piece creator Eichiro Oda comes to mind, as FUNimation's dub cast for the Straw Hat pirates all had to be approved by him (and they were, despite not sounding identical to their Japanese counterparts). Same deal with the Viz dub of Sailor Moon, where creator Naoko Takeuchi approved all the English dub voices for the Sailor Soldiers. Heck, even outside of anime there are plenty of examples of that. Bob Kane said Val Kilmer was closer to what he had in mind for Batman than Michael Keaton, despite approving the casting of both. Colm Wilkinson was Andrew Lloyd Webber's first choice to play the Phantom, even though he later cast and also approved of Michael Crawford. Plenty more examples to that effect throughout the history of casting...

So, all that to say that, for me, playing the character well means far more than doing a great impression. To that end, I'll always wonder what Richard Ian Cox's Goku was like...apparently the producers of that dub went above and beyond in trying to find the right actor there.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:53 pm

A voice should always be accurate to the character, not another voice. A dub should try to get across who the character is, because that's what going to matter to the audience watching. Not what they sound like in the original version.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:11 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:53 pm A voice should always be accurate to the character, not another voice. A dub should try to get across who the character is, because that's what going to matter to the audience watching. Not what they sound like in the original version.
So yeah, this. ^ :lol:

That's basically the TL;DR version of what I wrote, and I completely agree.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:17 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:39 pm snip
You nailed it.

On the topic of Identity Tajima, I love his content, he's a good impressionist and comedian, but I've seen no evidence that he would actually be good in the role of Goku, nor that he's ever shown serious interest in doing so. He just likes dressing up as Nozawa and making funny videos as far as I can tell.

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:27 pm

I don't have a horse in this race but I now find that transitioning and getting outside of the #Thespian community has really done a lot to teach me about voices in general. Resulting, I say let anyone voice Gokuu so long as they can act. Gender is a spectrum and as a result who can voice who is a spectrum. Want a man to voice Gokuu? Just don't deny trans men (post or non-T) a chance at voicing him. People can sound like anything.

Anyway, I doubt Toei cares to create a new mainstream dub. 😆
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:32 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:11 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:53 pm A voice should always be accurate to the character, not another voice. A dub should try to get across who the character is, because that's what going to matter to the audience watching. Not what they sound like in the original version.
So yeah, this. ^ :lol:

That's basically the TL;DR version of what I wrote, and I completely agree.
Oh believe me, my original post was so lengthy I realized I was literally just repeating every single thing you said instead of just agreeing :lol:
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:36 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:27 pm Just don't deny trans men (post or non-T) a chance at voicing him. People can sound like anything.

Anyway, I doubt Toei cares to create a new mainstream dub. 😆
I don’t know why anyone would have an issue with a trans man voicing Goku as long as he sounded right for the part and could act.

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:10 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:36 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 2:27 pm Just don't deny trans men (post or non-T) a chance at voicing him. People can sound like anything.

Anyway, I doubt Toei cares to create a new mainstream dub. 😆
I don’t know why anyone would have an issue with a trans man voicing Goku as long as he sounded right for the part and could act.
Well, what is 'right for the part'? Subjective views from the peanut gallery are 99.999% based on cisheteronormative views of what the binary genders should sound like. In that case it becomes extremely narrow and trans exclusive because we don't do that kind of thing.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Yuli Ban » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:25 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:22 am
Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:18 pm Not until we have AI that can perfectly replicate voices and translate things while retaining meaning.
That technology is coming.

I wish I was joking, but I'm not. There are several companies who are hard at work at creating "deepfake audio" technology, with one company focusing on creating that technology specifically for use in dubs. The idea is essentially that the technology would clone the voice of an actor in one language (say, for example, Japanese), and then a script adapter could simply type out a translated script in a different language (say, for example, English) and have the AI use the original actor's voice in that new language. It's getting better, but it's not yet at the point where it sounds good, because the synthesized voices still sound...well, like synthesized voices.

That said, it's only a matter of time before it gets to the point where it sounds legitimately human. I for one am not looking forward to it in the slightest. Firstly because it's going to put a lot of great performers across the whole world out of work, and secondly because an AI-generated performance will never have emotional sincerity.
Strongly disagree with this, unfortunately.
I have no personal attachment to the "humanity" argument. People CAN be fooled. People are not as sure of what is "human" or "emotional" as we think we are. It's ironically movies, TV shows, and books reinforcing that "emotional element is something that can't be replaced" argument, basically fiction idealizing reality since, in reality, there is no such element. It only exists in fiction because it's fiction.
And we are vastly closer to this technology than anyone thinks.
It surprised me to learn that the voice in this video is actually AI-generated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaKP0LGwOnA

But more to the point, I've been watching this area of technology for years. I probably know better than anyone else on this board what's happening. It's almost adorable to watch people so earnestly try their best with synthetic media to make text games and cute videos and laugh at the mistakes. The best analogy I can give is "the sea suddenly retracting and everyone running out to pick up the stranded fish left for miles before the massive tsunami impacts."
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:31 pm

Yuli Ban wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:25 pm
TheBlackPaladin wrote: Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:22 am
Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:18 pm Not until we have AI that can perfectly replicate voices and translate things while retaining meaning.
That technology is coming.

I wish I was joking, but I'm not. There are several companies who are hard at work at creating "deepfake audio" technology, with one company focusing on creating that technology specifically for use in dubs. The idea is essentially that the technology would clone the voice of an actor in one language (say, for example, Japanese), and then a script adapter could simply type out a translated script in a different language (say, for example, English) and have the AI use the original actor's voice in that new language. It's getting better, but it's not yet at the point where it sounds good, because the synthesized voices still sound...well, like synthesized voices.

That said, it's only a matter of time before it gets to the point where it sounds legitimately human. I for one am not looking forward to it in the slightest. Firstly because it's going to put a lot of great performers across the whole world out of work, and secondly because an AI-generated performance will never have emotional sincerity.
Strongly disagree with this, unfortunately.
I have no personal attachment to the "humanity" argument. People CAN be fooled. People are not as sure of what is "human" or "emotional" as we think we are.
Oh I didn't say people can't be fooled--they absolutely can, people fall for insincere words, promises, and apologies all the time--what I meant is that they'll be falling for something that isn't artistically sincere. In other words, they won't be listening to the genuine emotional outpouring of a human, they'll be listening to something that a programmer made on their computer. They'll buy it. It won't be sincere, though.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:09 pm

I'm deeply disturbed by this but it's probably a natural evolution of the way giant corporations treat their IPs as just products to be churned out, they don't care who or, indeed, what makes them. Could be a manatee pushing labelled balls around in a tank for all they care.

I definitely think there should be humans behind the voices, behind any art really. Sure, they can fool us for a while maybe, but the minute it gets out that Goku is now voiced by a synthetic voice programme, I don't think anyone will take too kindly to it. It'll just be distracting. Like, I legitimately can't focus on anything in that volcano video because I'm so focused on the synthetic voice. There may be a value in machine-made art, but in this case, a human is still behind everything, presumably. So it just begs the question of why not just get a real person to do it.

Maybe if we reach a point in society where this sort of thing is so commonplace it's not commented on... but I'm not sure how I feel about that future.

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:34 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:09 pm I'm deeply disturbed by this but it's probably a natural evolution of the way giant corporations treat their IPs as just products to be churned out, they don't care who or, indeed, what makes them. Could be a manatee pushing labelled balls around in a tank for all they care...

Maybe if we reach a point in society where this sort of thing is so commonplace it's not commented on... but I'm not sure how I feel about that future.
I'd be lying if I said there wasn't a section of the VA community that isn't scared s***less by these developments. And bare in mind, this won't just affect English VAs, this affects VAs period, regardless of their language. Some are screaming from the mountaintops that we need to do something to get this under control, but even then, there's only so much we can do. The closest thing I've seen to a viable proposal is that, since the AI programs still currently need a real human to create a synthetic voice from (in other words, they still need a human to go into a booth and record words/phrases for the AI to make its artificial voice from), SAG-AFTRA has gone to one AI company and is in the process of creating a contract that would pay actors royalties for the use and repeated re-use of their voice in AI projects. Even that's not full-proof, though, as there are plenty of companies who will just go ahead with their work and not worry about putting actors out of work.

At the same time, there are reasons for hope, too.

-AI hasn't always resulted in the complete replacement of something. As many have pointed out, we've had MIDI software programs for years that can convincingly replicate the sound of a real orchestra, and yet people still pay to see and listen to real orchestras. This includes big-name movie and TV studios who could go the AI route with their music, but are still hiring humans.

-The example that Yuli Ban cited above was straight-forward narration that didn't require much in the way of acting. Some AI companies have begun experimenting with that, but currently, it takes far more time to have a programmer modify the synthetic voices word-by-word to get something resembling a believable, emotional pitch variation than it does to just bring in a professional actor and have them nail it in 1-3 takes.

-Finally, as you noted, there are going to be some significant ethical issues with deepfake technology--on both the visual and audio levels--that go far beyond concerns about the emotional legitimacy of art. If this technology continues without some sort of regulation or way to detect it, what's to stop people from creating technology that could take your voice, program you saying something horrifically racist that you didn't actually say in real life, and then posting it on social media in an effort to get you "cancelled"? These are very real concerns that, as a silver lining, will have to be addressed on a legal level at some point.

So, am I frightened? No. Am I very concerned and think we ought to keep an eye on this technology? Yes.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:39 pm

Having never listened to any synthetic voiceovers as far as I'm aware, I'd imagine it would be quite jarring, especially when you find out the voice wasn't actually performed by an actor.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Aim » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:34 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Fri Apr 30, 2021 1:39 pm Well, there's a difference between an actor and an impressionist. I've seen some phenomenal impressions of cartoon characters like Peter Griffin, Homer Simpson, and counting that video above, yes, even Nozawa's Goku. Just because people can do great impressions doesn't necessarily mean they can act the parts well, though. The impressions I spoke of nailed the voices, but weren't able to convincingly portray the range of emotions and situations the character goes through.

That's why I'm just not a huge stickler for a dub voice sounding like the original voice. I understand that some people may want that, but for me it matters far, far more that they convincingly play the character, rather than replicate a certain voice. I'll take a voice that sounds different from the original but plays the character well over a voice that sounds exactly like the original but can't act any day. If a dub voice actor can perfectly replicate a voice from the original version, then...hey, cool. For real, that's cool. Not at all necessary, though.

It's also worth noting that even if some casting choices were deliberate on the part of the creators, we're not inside the creator's heads, so we don't know if they'd necessarily insist on every foreign language version having voices that sound like the originals, or that they thought the actors they picked were the only actors who could have done the roles justice. In fact, some of them are fine with the voices sounding different. One Piece creator Eichiro Oda comes to mind, as FUNimation's dub cast for the Straw Hat pirates all had to be approved by him (and they were, despite not sounding identical to their Japanese counterparts). Same deal with the Viz dub of Sailor Moon, where creator Naoko Takeuchi approved all the English dub voices for the Sailor Soldiers. Heck, even outside of anime there are plenty of examples of that. Bob Kane said Val Kilmer was closer to what he had in mind for Batman than Michael Keaton, despite approving the casting of both. Colm Wilkinson was Andrew Lloyd Webber's first choice to play the Phantom, even though he later cast and also approved of Michael Crawford. Plenty more examples to that effect throughout the history of casting...

So, all that to say that, for me, playing the character well means far more than doing a great impression. To that end, I'll always wonder what Richard Ian Cox's Goku was like...apparently the producers of that dub went above and beyond in trying to find the right actor there.
That is true, I completely agree. The spirit needs to be matched just as much of not more. Though with that said keep in mind no one bothers to even suggest there’s someone out there who can do it on a similar level as Nozawa, this is especially true when it comes to the English dub, it’s like they’re allergic to the idea of having a proper interpretation of Son Goku instead of this cocky dingus we’ve been blessed with for example in Super.

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Hulk10 » Fri May 21, 2021 9:30 pm

I fail to see the point in asking for a 'true' dub. When we already have one.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Brodes » Sun May 23, 2021 11:39 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 9:30 pm I fail to see the point in asking for a 'true' dub. When we already have one.
And which one is that?

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Hulk10 » Sun May 23, 2021 11:56 pm

Isn't DBZ Kai a true dub?
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