Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

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TheBlackPaladin
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Mon May 24, 2021 12:25 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 11:56 pm Isn't DBZ Kai a true dub?
Depends on who you ask.

There's always a bit of subjectivity on whether or not a dub is faithful enough. There are those out there who believe a dub isn't faithful unless the script is completely identical to the subtitles (which never happens because it isn't practical), and there are those out there who believe as long as the "spirit" is intact in a very general sense, then it's a faithful dub. Like, to give you an idea, the original producer of the English dub of DBZ, Barry Watson, said that he believed what they did with DBZ was faithful to the Japanese version.

..........Which, I mean......doing my damndest to see things from his point of view, it's not as though they pulled a Robotech and used pre-existing animation to tell an original story, so, from that point of view, I guess you could consider it faithful..........buuuuut, I and many others don't believe it was faithful enough. Like, not nearly faithful enough. Like, "Guys, c'mon"-levels of not faithful enough.

So the answer to that question is going to vary on a case-by-case, person-by-person basis. Personally, yes, the Kai dub was faithful enough for me. I would have adapted a few lines differently, and I would have kept the attack names consistent, but overall I thought it was a great dub of the English version, reaching the zenith of its quality during the Freeza arc. Great acting, great casting, great writing, just great to listen to from start to finish.

Still, there are others for whom the Kai dub was not enough, including some who believe the idea of the Kai dub being "better" is a myth entirely. So, to each their own.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon May 24, 2021 1:27 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 12:25 pm
Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 11:56 pm Isn't DBZ Kai a true dub?
Depends on who you ask.

There's always a bit of subjectivity on whether or not a dub is faithful enough. There are those out there who believe a dub isn't faithful unless the script is completely identical to the subtitles (which never happens because it isn't practical), and there are those out there who believe as long as the "spirit" is intact in a very general sense, then it's a faithful dub. Like, to give you an idea, the original producer of the English dub of DBZ, Barry Watson, said that he believed what they did with DBZ was faithful to the Japanese version.

..........Which, I mean......doing my damndest to see things from his point of view, it's not as though they pulled a Robotech and used pre-existing animation to tell an original story, so, from that point of view, I guess you could consider it faithful..........buuuuut, I and many others don't believe it was faithful enough. Like, not nearly faithful enough. Like, "Guys, c'mon"-levels of not faithful enough.

So the answer to that question is going to vary on a case-by-case, person-by-person basis. Personally, yes, the Kai dub was faithful enough for me. I would have adapted a few lines differently, and I would have kept the attack names consistent, but overall I thought it was a great dub of the English version, reaching the zenith of its quality during the Freeza arc. Great acting, great casting, great writing, just great to listen to from start to finish.

Still, there are others for whom the Kai dub was not enough, including some who believe the idea of the Kai dub being "better" is a myth entirely. So, to each their own.
I think it's faithful enough, certainly much moreso than the hot dumpster fire garbage that the old DBZ dub was because by that point a decade later there had been a changeover at FUNi from a management standpoint in terms of dub production. I'll agree it isn't perfect but overall a significant enough improvement that i would recommend it over the Z dub any day, and if you want a version that is much closer to the original then Kai gets the job done.

Funny how at the time there Watson said the DBZ dub was faithful, when for the most part it was just about anything but that with the heavy script rewriting and horrible "punching up" with wall to wall dialogue every second and some of the most god awful jokes i've ever had the displeasure of hearing.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Mon May 24, 2021 1:42 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 1:27 pm I think it's faithful enough, certainly much moreso than the hot dumpster fire garbage that the old DBZ dub was because by that point a decade later there had been a changeover at FUNi from a management standpoint in terms of dub production....

...Funny how at the time there Watson said the DBZ dub was faithful, when for the most part it was just about anything but that with the heavy script rewriting and horrible "punching up" with wall to wall dialogue every second and some of the most god awful jokes i've ever had the displeasure of hearing.
Totally. Chris Sabat gradually took over creative oversight duties from Watson, and the general consensus is that the overall quality of the dub improved in direct proportion to how much power Sabat had (and how little power Watson had). Nothing against Watson personally, of course, he's supposedly quite the nice guy.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon May 24, 2021 2:36 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 1:42 pm
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 1:27 pm I think it's faithful enough, certainly much moreso than the hot dumpster fire garbage that the old DBZ dub was because by that point a decade later there had been a changeover at FUNi from a management standpoint in terms of dub production....

...Funny how at the time there Watson said the DBZ dub was faithful, when for the most part it was just about anything but that with the heavy script rewriting and horrible "punching up" with wall to wall dialogue every second and some of the most god awful jokes i've ever had the displeasure of hearing.
Totally. Chris Sabat gradually took over creative oversight duties from Watson, and the general consensus is that the overall quality of the dub improved in direct proportion to how much power Sabat had (and how little power Watson had). Nothing against Watson personally, of course, he's supposedly quite the nice guy.
Yes, it was Watson's creative decisions among others that led to the DBZ dub (and DB/GT to a lesser extent) coming out the way they did. It seems after he and some of the other production people had left the company in 2004/2005 that the direction of their dubs improved gradually.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Mon May 24, 2021 3:03 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 2:36 pm Yes, it was Watson's creative decisions among others that led to the DBZ dub (and DB/GT to a lesser extent) coming out the way they did. It seems after he and some of the other production people had left the company in 2004/2005 that the direction of their dubs improved gradually.
That said, I'll give Watson this: while he may be remembered by a lot fans for his less-than-ideal vision for the dub, he was also responsible for some of the more widely-lauded casting decisions. Scott McNeil as Piccolo was his call, as was Brian Drummond as Vegeta, Peter Kelamis as Goku....so I don't mean to paint him as inept, he clearly wasn't. His vision for the dub just wasn't in line with what most people would consider a "faithful" dub.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Mon May 24, 2021 3:39 pm

I think it has to be mentioned that he also wanted to make an uncut dub for the series of the tier of the Pioneer DVDs.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Mon May 24, 2021 4:26 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:39 pm I think it has to be mentioned that he also wanted to make an uncut dub for the series of the tier of the Pioneer DVDs.
Somebody did say that, but it was Gen Fukunaga, FUNimation CEO.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon May 24, 2021 4:28 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:03 pm
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 2:36 pm Yes, it was Watson's creative decisions among others that led to the DBZ dub (and DB/GT to a lesser extent) coming out the way they did. It seems after he and some of the other production people had left the company in 2004/2005 that the direction of their dubs improved gradually.
That said, I'll give Watson this: while he may be remembered by a lot fans for his less-than-ideal vision for the dub, he was also responsible for some of the more widely-lauded casting decisions. Scott McNeil as Piccolo was his call, as was Brian Drummond as Vegeta, Peter Kelamis as Goku....so I don't mean to paint him as inept, he clearly wasn't. His vision for the dub just wasn't in line with what most people would consider a "faithful" dub.
That is true, there were definitely some positive things that came out of his time at FUNi such as the above even though he made plenty of calls production wise that were not so great in regards to the DBZ dub.
Last edited by SuperSaiyaManZ94 on Mon May 24, 2021 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon May 24, 2021 4:30 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:26 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:39 pm I think it has to be mentioned that he also wanted to make an uncut dub for the series of the tier of the Pioneer DVDs.
Somebody did say that, but it was Gen Fukunaga, FUNimation CEO.
Now that would've surely been awesome, because their dubs of DBZ movies 1-3 (Which are by far the best way to watch those in English) showed how it could be done. Shame that ultimately didn't come to pass.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Mon May 24, 2021 4:34 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:30 pm
TheBlackPaladin wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:26 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:39 pm I think it has to be mentioned that he also wanted to make an uncut dub for the series of the tier of the Pioneer DVDs.
Somebody did say that, but it was Gen Fukunaga, FUNimation CEO.
Now that would've surely been awesome, because their dubs of DBZ movies 1-3 (Which are by far the best way to watch those in English) showed how it could be done. Shame that ultimately didn't come to pass.
Very true, it was unfortunate that we didn't get to see that. It was also, indirectly, one of the sources of anger among sub fans back when "Season 3" started airing, because they were saying (and not unjustly), "We know a good dub can be done, because you just did a good dub of the first three movies!" I also would have loved to have heard what Brian Drummond could have done with Vegeta when he had good direction and a faithfully-adapted script to work with. Heck, that was one of the biggest reasons I was looking forward to the Ocean dub of Kai.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Mon May 24, 2021 4:37 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:26 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:39 pm I think it has to be mentioned that he also wanted to make an uncut dub for the series of the tier of the Pioneer DVDs.
Somebody did say that, but it was Gen Fukunaga, FUNimation CEO.
https://dbzu.3gkai.com/opinions/bwatson.html
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon May 24, 2021 4:52 pm

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:34 pm
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:30 pm
TheBlackPaladin wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:26 pm

Somebody did say that, but it was Gen Fukunaga, FUNimation CEO.
Now that would've surely been awesome, because their dubs of DBZ movies 1-3 (Which are by far the best way to watch those in English) showed how it could be done. Shame that ultimately didn't come to pass.
Very true, it was unfortunate that we didn't get to see that. It was also, indirectly, one of the sources of anger among sub fans back when "Season 3" started airing, because they were saying (and not unjustly), "We know a good dub can be done, because you just did a good dub of the first three movies!" I also would have loved to have heard what Brian Drummond could have done with Vegeta when he had good direction and a faithfully-adapted script to work with. Heck, that was one of the biggest reasons I was looking forward to the Ocean dub of Kai.
Indeed, as opposed to FUNi making the decision to drop the Ocean Studios cast, go it themselves and cheaply hiring local talent (most of which had literally had only done theater work, and little to no voice acting before then) because while the long time consistent cast people remaining from back then like Schemmel and Sonny Strait are really good these days it was clear back in 1999 that they were very inexperienced and hired on the cheap. Go back and watch the old Season 3 dub of the Freeza episodes and you can tell just how rough it was for them performance wise when first starting out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EYJq1E1o0k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alk6VvjASdc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCxsixkFc9M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEncqyKH9M4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsoYKyom1Ww
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Mon May 24, 2021 5:37 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:37 pm
TheBlackPaladin wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 4:26 pm
Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 3:39 pm I think it has to be mentioned that he also wanted to make an uncut dub for the series of the tier of the Pioneer DVDs.
Somebody did say that, but it was Gen Fukunaga, FUNimation CEO.
https://dbzu.3gkai.com/opinions/bwatson.html
Ah, OK. Fukunaga said it too, but I guess so did Barry Watson. In any event, my guess is that he misspoke here. It really sounds like the uncut version was done with minimal involvement from him, so when he said that Pioneer is doing uncut versions of "the episodes," my guess is that he didn't really understand what Pioneer was (and wasn't) doing.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Mon May 24, 2021 6:28 pm

Interestingly Barry Watson's name is no where to be seen on the credits for the Pioneer movie dubs.

With regards to the plans for a full uncut dub with the Ocean Studios cast, I'd have to imagine since Funimation were still a new company they simply decided it wasn't worth the investment, so they chose to do it inhouse.

It's unfortunate though, would have been great for the Vancouver cast to get a chance to do it all as it was intended, if you will.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Hulk10 » Mon May 24, 2021 7:53 pm

The original Z wasn't so bad after the Cell Saga. I liked the fight scenes on Old Kai's planet.
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Aim » Mon May 24, 2021 8:16 pm

Hulk10 wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 11:56 pm Isn't DBZ Kai a true dub?
No. And I’ll explain why.

There are numerous threads complaining about Kai and the sub par treatment it was given after the first bunch of episodes. They went once again and changed dialogue for no good reason. Though you’ll hear a few people use the straw man “it can’t be 1:1” (even though no one is suggesting that), there’s no reason they couldn’t have used the correct attack names and actually translated some of them correctly. They have a whole site dedicated to Dragon Ball that is far more adept at translating and coming to conclusions on what is appropriate and what isn’t (I’m talking about Kanzenshuu), but they never used it.

Christ Sabat has stated that since people have already seen Dragon Ball and get the gist of it already, they feel they can take more liberties and change it how they see fit. Christopher Sabat and probably everyone else at Funimation are the last people after Watson that I’d want to be in charge of Dragon Ball after that comment he made.

Funimation has shown to be competent with dubbing though they continually drop the ball with Dragon Ball, and the worse part is it’s done on purpose. The thing that makes me more salty towards them is the fact they blocked the other Kai dub from being released. Essentially they want complete monopoly over the anime scene. I realize the water I am dipping my toe into responding to this thread, but I encourage you to dig into it further and go compare the dub to the original Japanese. You’ll notice that it can be done faithfully, but they don’t want to. And people will manipulate and straw man you on this forum for pointing that out, until you lose your cool and the head Administrator is there to happily punish you. While I love this place their is this strange idea that something being “faithful” is subjective in the case of Dragon Ball in the west, in which case Abridged was totally a faithful dub, not parody.

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Mon May 24, 2021 8:27 pm

AiM. That is really unfair. You should that Kanzenshuu doesnt give a hoot about Funimation and they care only and first and foremost about accuracy.

EDIT:Also, please dont go crazy like that hypersaiyan guy did. You should know that Kanzenshuu has place for every opinion as long as its expressed politely.

ALSO I apologize if this sounds like I am trying to sweeten you up but I do agree Funi Kai isnt the amazing thing everyone says it is. And there are even people that agree with you like Robo. Please just dont go crazy.

EDIT:Also I fucking hate Abridged and thank you for your calling it out.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Aim » Mon May 24, 2021 8:35 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 8:27 pm AiM. That is really unfair. You should that Kanzenshuu doesnt give a hoot about Funimation and they care only and first and foremost about accuracy.

EDIT:Also, please dont go crazy like that hypersaiyan guy did. You should know that Kanzenshuu has place for every opinion as long as its expressed politely.
Sorry, that’s the way I feel. I feel like one of my threads was derailed, when all I wanted was to gain some more knowledge on the show and how things are translated, because I find it interesting, then all of a sudden I’m accused of not letting people enjoy what they want to enjoy. In which case I lost my cool and made some bad decisions admittedly, but what Mike did, suggesting the others wouldn’t respond to me because of how I was responding, was not only hurtful (especially since I messaged him asking for what I can do to improve on in the future, but he’s ignored me so far), but totally uncalled for considering I felt the others were needling me. What was once a discussion board where you could ask questions like that has now I feel become a place where you just accept “Kakarot” and “Vegito”, don’t ask questions and move on. Not to mention people linked me to Herms thread that didn’t explain anything. While I was in the wrong for the way I responded, I do feel like I was unfairly judged and treated.

PS: Don’t worry, I won’t go crazy, I actually enjoy talking with you all, it’s just I got frustrated. Probably doesn’t help I come from a place where swearing is so common it came across as more hostile than intended though I try to tone it down since I realize online it’s hard to tell people’s emotions :lol:
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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Mon May 24, 2021 8:38 pm

Okay. I see thanks. I did feel that way myself back when I was new and felt like the admins were against me. I even thought of leaving in those days. But I persevered and Kanzenshuu is like a 2nd home to me now.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Would a “true” faithful dub ever be possible?

Post by Hulk10 » Mon May 24, 2021 8:40 pm

Kanzenshuu is indeed a much better place than the wikia. You can express your views of the show and manga and you can expect people to be polite even when they disagree with you.
"We became like friends, we became like good friends." Broly to Cheelai and Lemo about his fur pelt.

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