Does Goku get too much credit for turning villains good?
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Does Goku get too much credit for turning villains good?
Both in universe and by fans. People are always saying it's Goku's charisma that endears bad guys to change, but it's not that simple.
Yamcha was mostly turned by Bulma.
Tien was mostly by Roshi.
Chiaotzu simply followed Tien.
Piccolo sensed his own mortality and was ultimately changed by Gohan.
Vegeta was influenced by circumstance for a long time, while his relationship with Future Trunks was a major turning point (although Goku did get them to train together)
18 was won over by Krillin, and never even met Goku until years later.
Buu was changed by Mr Satan.
Is the power of Goku's charisma slightly overrated?
Yamcha was mostly turned by Bulma.
Tien was mostly by Roshi.
Chiaotzu simply followed Tien.
Piccolo sensed his own mortality and was ultimately changed by Gohan.
Vegeta was influenced by circumstance for a long time, while his relationship with Future Trunks was a major turning point (although Goku did get them to train together)
18 was won over by Krillin, and never even met Goku until years later.
Buu was changed by Mr Satan.
Is the power of Goku's charisma slightly overrated?
- It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips
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Re: Does Goku get too much credit for turning villains good?
Yes but it's so wildly accepted and (afaik) how Toriyama sees the series that, even if it's not what's on the page, it's what we're supposed to assume going forward. The cast's loyalty to Goku only makes sense if you assume they see him as having changed them for the better so... might as well roll with it.
To me it made Chiaotzu's loyalty to Tenshinhan even sweeter. He wants to see his friend be the best he can be. Lotta warm fuzzies to be had.
Which should be a lesson to anyone who throws away job security to follow their passions. It's a trap. Don't do it.
Y'know I don't think Tenshinhan's conversion had much to do with Roshi. I think he definitely planted the seeds but when I read the scene it looks like a combination of his pride, the fact that he was in the finals of a martial arts tournament, and the realization that, as an assassin, he'll never get to reach his full potential. If he encounters someone he can't overcome, it'll be expected that he cheat to complete the contract. Competition can't matter to a hired killer.
To me it made Chiaotzu's loyalty to Tenshinhan even sweeter. He wants to see his friend be the best he can be. Lotta warm fuzzies to be had.
Which should be a lesson to anyone who throws away job security to follow their passions. It's a trap. Don't do it.
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- LoganForkHands73
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Re: Does Goku get too much credit for turning villains good?
Yeah, I saw a post about this on another thread and the realisation it did take me aback a bit. I think Goku does have a large influence in most of these cases, even if he isn't the only factor, but it's one of those things that becomes lame if overstressed in the story itself. I said in another thread that my main issue with Merus is that his relationship with Goku hinges on us simply accepting Goku's magnetic personality, which Piccolo gushes about as well, but we don't see nearly enough of their relationship for it to feel authentic. What slim sense of comradery they may have is all tacked on at the eleventh hour, in the chapter in which Merus dies. I have a similar problem with how Geoff Johns and other writers frame Superman, funnily enough, as they constantly overstate how singularly important Superman is to the entire DC Universe, to the point where reality warps around him -- it's like, yeah, Superman is probably the most important character, but when the story dwells on it, it starts to feel like shilling.
But yeah, onto the dudes: Roshi did the most work in trying to get through to Tenshinhan, but it was during his fight with Goku that Ten really began to see the light and understand it was his calling to become a greater martial artist, not an assassin. Gohan may have played the largest role in changing Piccolo, but it never would've happened if Goku didn't spare Piccolo and establish that mutual respect between them. If Piccolo never met Goku at the 23rd Budokai, there's no way he would've teamed up with him to fight Raditz. Vegeta was mostly changed by Goku, no doubt -- the man lives rent-free in Vegeta's head constantly.
The trend continues in later media as well. Su Shenron from GT is inspired by Goku to defect from the Shadow Dragons. In Super, he changes loads of people for the better: Beerus, Whis, Hit, Zeno, Jiren, Broly.
But yeah, onto the dudes: Roshi did the most work in trying to get through to Tenshinhan, but it was during his fight with Goku that Ten really began to see the light and understand it was his calling to become a greater martial artist, not an assassin. Gohan may have played the largest role in changing Piccolo, but it never would've happened if Goku didn't spare Piccolo and establish that mutual respect between them. If Piccolo never met Goku at the 23rd Budokai, there's no way he would've teamed up with him to fight Raditz. Vegeta was mostly changed by Goku, no doubt -- the man lives rent-free in Vegeta's head constantly.
The trend continues in later media as well. Su Shenron from GT is inspired by Goku to defect from the Shadow Dragons. In Super, he changes loads of people for the better: Beerus, Whis, Hit, Zeno, Jiren, Broly.
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Re: Does Goku get too much credit for turning villains good?
There is some truth to it, even if fans do romanticize this aspect of Goku's character a lot. I think Goku's laid back outlook on fighting and seeing it all as a big game inspires some characters to not take life so seriously, leading the way for other characters having bigger roles. Piccolo saw that during the Raditz fight when Goku was just happy to have him as a teammate regardless of his past. I agree that Gohan did teach Piccolo what it means to be family, but Goku was definitely the catalyst as he didn't have to team up with Piccolo and let him get between himself and Gohan. Conversely I think Goku deserves more credit for changing the newer characters like Beerus, Hit and Zeno whose relationships with other characters was almost exclusively Goku. With Broly you could argue Cheelai, but we'll probably see more of his development when Super continues.
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Re: Does Goku get too much credit for turning villains good?
Since Goku is as susceptible of bringing forth evil actions from others inadvertently as he is bringing forth positive changes of heart (Vegeta being the classic example of both things happening at least partly due to Goku's influence over him), I guess it might be truer to say that what Goku is really good at is making the people he interacts with confront a moment of truth, 'bringing forth' what is already within them.
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Re: Does Goku get too much credit for turning villains good?
I think I like this framing. Goku is a wall that others can't get over so they have to stop and take notice of where they are in life.Magnificent Ponta wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:07 pm Since Goku is as susceptible of bringing forth evil actions from others inadvertently as he is bringing forth positive changes of heart (Vegeta being the classic example of both things happening at least partly due to Goku's influence over him), I guess it might be truer to say that what Goku is really good at is making the people he interacts with confront a moment of truth, 'bringing forth' what is already within them.
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"If someone gets Star Wars wrong? Death threats. If a kid learns that a shitty song they liked when they were 12 was a cover of a song made in 1984? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that's too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that isn't too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone criticizes Naruto? Lots of death threats. Sexualizes pokemon? UNIVERSAL PRAISE." - Plague of Gripes
"If someone gets Star Wars wrong? Death threats. If a kid learns that a shitty song they liked when they were 12 was a cover of a song made in 1984? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that's too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone makes a Sonic game that isn't too dark and edgy? Death threats. If someone criticizes Naruto? Lots of death threats. Sexualizes pokemon? UNIVERSAL PRAISE." - Plague of Gripes
Re: Does Goku get too much credit for turning villains good?
It might be often implied or so we were made to believe, but there's no credit for Goku except for Krillin.
Yamcha stuck around for his own selfish reasons and then fell for Bulma.
Tien was moved by Roshi's words during their fight and that's pretty much it. Goku helped move the plot further but was not a mandatory element in Tien's change of heart, take him away and I believe the outcome would have been the same. In fact their relationship was pretty rocky most of the time, I'd be surprised if this was ever anyone's reason for change.
With Piccolo it's even more obscure. As he dies by the hands of Nappa's he tells Gohan "It's because of you and your dad, your softness infecting me, but you know boy, you were the only one who ever really talked to me". Goku does indeed have some credit in Piccolo's survival post tournament, but Piccolo didn't change his stance in his rivalry towards Goku until Gohan. Let's be real, he only teamed up with Goku and then abducted his son for the sole reason of ensuring his own survival so that he can later accomplish his natal mission of destroying Goku. There was no reason from anyone's side to attempt and start a friendship.
With Vegeta it's debatable. While he did develop an unhealthy obsession for Goku, he ultimately bonded with a human female and then with his unplanned son. I doubt Goku was in his mind as he was having an one-night-stand with Bulma, else I have some bad news. In his case I believe there was a latent need for companionship which was severely suppressed during his early Spartan-like trainings.
And with Buu it's obvious, it was Satan and the pupper.
So while most of the characters owe their lives to Goku one way or another, and his unique character had whatever influence on his companions, he shouldn't take the credit mentioned in the title.
Yamcha stuck around for his own selfish reasons and then fell for Bulma.
Tien was moved by Roshi's words during their fight and that's pretty much it. Goku helped move the plot further but was not a mandatory element in Tien's change of heart, take him away and I believe the outcome would have been the same. In fact their relationship was pretty rocky most of the time, I'd be surprised if this was ever anyone's reason for change.
With Piccolo it's even more obscure. As he dies by the hands of Nappa's he tells Gohan "It's because of you and your dad, your softness infecting me, but you know boy, you were the only one who ever really talked to me". Goku does indeed have some credit in Piccolo's survival post tournament, but Piccolo didn't change his stance in his rivalry towards Goku until Gohan. Let's be real, he only teamed up with Goku and then abducted his son for the sole reason of ensuring his own survival so that he can later accomplish his natal mission of destroying Goku. There was no reason from anyone's side to attempt and start a friendship.
With Vegeta it's debatable. While he did develop an unhealthy obsession for Goku, he ultimately bonded with a human female and then with his unplanned son. I doubt Goku was in his mind as he was having an one-night-stand with Bulma, else I have some bad news. In his case I believe there was a latent need for companionship which was severely suppressed during his early Spartan-like trainings.
And with Buu it's obvious, it was Satan and the pupper.
So while most of the characters owe their lives to Goku one way or another, and his unique character had whatever influence on his companions, he shouldn't take the credit mentioned in the title.
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Re: Does Goku get too much credit for turning villains good?
Whilst there are clearly cases where other characters have had the more overt role in changing a character, Goku’s presence is definitely felt throughout them.
I do think Tien and Goku’s fight went a long way in changing Tien’s psyche. The fight with Roshi confused his world view. But it was the thrill and fair fight with Goku (see his response to chaozu freezing him) and his disdain at method of victory.
Piccolo obviously was mainly Gohan but Goku’s post tournament influence was already at work as Rafita’ soul wasn’t in limbo showing his redemption.
Vegeta you’ve just said was Bulma and Trunks helping. But one can argue even then Goku fostered ways for Vegeta to change in the cell arc - time chamber with Trunks as pairing up was Goku’s suggestion. Still was a dick to trunks during semi perfect cell but also had some fatherly Joy at Trunks being stronger than cell etc
Buu had Goku spread some seeds of doubt to buu with regards to Babidi. I know he was still doing bad stuff after Babidi died. But Goku’s words led to Babidi dying which allowed Mister Satan to go to buus house. Which wouldn’t have been possible with Babidi alive.
I do think Tien and Goku’s fight went a long way in changing Tien’s psyche. The fight with Roshi confused his world view. But it was the thrill and fair fight with Goku (see his response to chaozu freezing him) and his disdain at method of victory.
Piccolo obviously was mainly Gohan but Goku’s post tournament influence was already at work as Rafita’ soul wasn’t in limbo showing his redemption.
Vegeta you’ve just said was Bulma and Trunks helping. But one can argue even then Goku fostered ways for Vegeta to change in the cell arc - time chamber with Trunks as pairing up was Goku’s suggestion. Still was a dick to trunks during semi perfect cell but also had some fatherly Joy at Trunks being stronger than cell etc
Buu had Goku spread some seeds of doubt to buu with regards to Babidi. I know he was still doing bad stuff after Babidi died. But Goku’s words led to Babidi dying which allowed Mister Satan to go to buus house. Which wouldn’t have been possible with Babidi alive.
Re: Does Goku get too much credit for turning villains good?
I never really thought of this but you are right. I do think all the above characters who were once enemies of Goku do end up admiring him in end and will ultimately put their faith and hope on Goku to beat the villain.
Vegeta is probably the one who turned the most because of Goku. Now it wasn’t just Goku that changed him it was also his family and just living a peaceful life on Earth.
But while Vegeta’s obsession with Goku also lead to negative actions (Majin Vegeta) I think coming to the realization that someone could be such an amazing fighter but have a gentle heart and show mercy as Vegeta put it during his No 1 speech did have an impact on Vegeta’s development.
Vegeta is probably the one who turned the most because of Goku. Now it wasn’t just Goku that changed him it was also his family and just living a peaceful life on Earth.
But while Vegeta’s obsession with Goku also lead to negative actions (Majin Vegeta) I think coming to the realization that someone could be such an amazing fighter but have a gentle heart and show mercy as Vegeta put it during his No 1 speech did have an impact on Vegeta’s development.
Re: Does Goku get too much credit for turning villains good?
Dude...while I appreciate the fact you managed to simplify the equation & rightfully so...I guess it was not about direct effort/person involved in the process that matters. Like Roshi in Tien's case...or Gohan in Piccolo's case90sDBZ wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:54 pm Both in universe and by fans. People are always saying it's Goku's charisma that endears bad guys to change, but it's not that simple.
Yamcha was mostly turned by Bulma.
Tien was mostly by Roshi.
Chiaotzu simply followed Tien.
Piccolo sensed his own mortality and was ultimately changed by Gohan.
Vegeta was influenced by circumstance for a long time, while his relationship with Future Trunks was a major turning point (although Goku did get them to train together)
18 was won over by Krillin, and never even met Goku until years later.
Buu was changed by Mr Satan.
Is the power of Goku's charisma slightly overrated?
If Goku goes around giving advice/life lessons to every villains, he's no different to Naruto and his infamous talk-no-jutsu kikiki
The fact how all of them (yamcha/tien/Piccolo/Veggie) all were direct antagonist to Goku. Yet over the time, his presence & subsequent impact he created made them to change their ways of life
Krillin was changed by Goku. Yamcha was no different. All were impressed by his strength & performance at TB.
Piccolo was no different. He helped Goku to rescue Gohan from Raditz, protected his son from Nappa & again did the same for Goku against Frieza, Androids, Cell etc...
The fact Goku's presence alone changed these guys over time is remarkable feat.
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Re: Does Goku get too much credit for turning villains good?
Yeah Goku's influence upon the characters is undeniable. Much like the Batman, Goku's persona and actions cast a large shadow. Everyone he crosses paths with is critically impacted one way or another. For some, this means fear and hatred (Pilaf, RR/Gero, Freeza etc.) For others, it means inspiration and admiration. Goku's friends and allies were all won over by Goku's personality and nature. His rivals and adversaries were all driven to become better and stronger because of their encounters with him.
Sure, there were secondary factors sometimes like Roshi with Tenshinhan, Gohan with Piccolo, or Trunks/Bulma with Vegeta. But Goku is what made it all possible, and Goku is what kept it all going.
Of course, this is all due to the old trope of the main character that everyone loves so much who wins over everyone they ever meet etc etc. that is present in so many anime/manga along with storytelling in general. So it's not really unique to Goku or DB.
Sure, there were secondary factors sometimes like Roshi with Tenshinhan, Gohan with Piccolo, or Trunks/Bulma with Vegeta. But Goku is what made it all possible, and Goku is what kept it all going.
Of course, this is all due to the old trope of the main character that everyone loves so much who wins over everyone they ever meet etc etc. that is present in so many anime/manga along with storytelling in general. So it's not really unique to Goku or DB.