Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
This thread will be focusing on Goku's iconic golden/orange dogi, its changes and why I think it may have changed, and changed back.
Starting with the 21st Tenkaichi Budoukai through the battle on Namek, Goku's dogi featured the Kame and/or Kaio kanji and eventually his own kanji, and a loosely tied obi. Goku would wear some variation of this as his primary outfit for the remainder of the manga until End of Z.
Then, starting with the battle against the artificial humans through the battle with Majin Boo, Goku began wearing a dogi with a wider obi with no loose ends, and dropped any kanji at all. The colors on Goku's boots (at least in the anime) and the cut of the outer shirt also changed.
Starting after the conclusion of the serialization of the manga, Toriyama (and Toei) seems to have (mostly) settled on a blend of the two, with the wider obi and the inclusion of Goku's 悟 "Go" kanji.
We all know this, so why am I posting about it? Ultimately, I posted this thread because I have a strong preference for Goku's dogi design and as a big consumer of fanart and merchandise, it always made me wonder why the dogi design changed more than halfway through the series and why it changed back (sort of)?
My Theory: It is well documented that drawing a weekly manga is exhausting. Starting with the artificial humans, specifically Cell, Toriyama gave himself an especially time consuming design to draw page after page. Toriyama has stated in interviews that he gave himself too much work with Cell's spots. But I believe that even characters like Trunks, #17 and #18 have more design elements than previous main character designs. More buckles, more lines on their clothes and shoes and hair, etc. etc.
With Goku being the main character, he would be on the page more than anyone else, so a very easy way to save a ton of time would be to drop the kanji and loose belt. Each page with Goku on it would previously require to make sure he was drawing the kanji from the correct angle, and keep consistency with it. With the belt, he'd have to remember to include it during battle scenes and account for the angle and so on. Essentially, these two elements are fairly minor to the overall design of Goku and aren't even part of his overall silhouette, so I believe Toriyama dropped them to save time. I feel like a similar thing happened with Saiyan tails, and Vegeta's more elaborate Saiyan armor being slimmed down and simplified. He may have also just preferred the look, but I doubt it. Why?
With the end of the serialization, Toriyama was no longer under the same time constraints as before, and I believe he felt that Goku's design without the kanji lacked something. So he brought it back. It's just that simple.
I wonder if any of you very informed people have found any interviews with Toriyama that either back up or contradict my theory. I just like reading about his design process and feel like compared to the writing/story and even his panel layout skills, Toriyama's designs themselves go a little underappreciated and discussed.
My personal preference is either the Namek look, or the modern post-serialization design. I feel like the lack of kanji is often cited by fans as symbolizing Goku growing beyond the need of needing a martial arts master. But that was already symbolized when Kaio-sama gave Goku the dogi featuring Goku's personal kanji. To me, not having a kanji is almost like Superman without the S shield or Batman without the bat on their chests. I'm glad Toriyama reintegrated it into his designs and I always appreciate when I see fan artists include it in their drawings because I realize the kanji may be somewhat tricky to nail.
I'm not sure exactly how much discussion this will generate, so I would also be happy if this could become a sort of "Dragon Ball design/fashion appreciation" thread. Because, as we all know, this is REALLY Goku's best design:
Credit: Knew_Sky on Twitter
Starting with the 21st Tenkaichi Budoukai through the battle on Namek, Goku's dogi featured the Kame and/or Kaio kanji and eventually his own kanji, and a loosely tied obi. Goku would wear some variation of this as his primary outfit for the remainder of the manga until End of Z.
Then, starting with the battle against the artificial humans through the battle with Majin Boo, Goku began wearing a dogi with a wider obi with no loose ends, and dropped any kanji at all. The colors on Goku's boots (at least in the anime) and the cut of the outer shirt also changed.
Starting after the conclusion of the serialization of the manga, Toriyama (and Toei) seems to have (mostly) settled on a blend of the two, with the wider obi and the inclusion of Goku's 悟 "Go" kanji.
We all know this, so why am I posting about it? Ultimately, I posted this thread because I have a strong preference for Goku's dogi design and as a big consumer of fanart and merchandise, it always made me wonder why the dogi design changed more than halfway through the series and why it changed back (sort of)?
My Theory: It is well documented that drawing a weekly manga is exhausting. Starting with the artificial humans, specifically Cell, Toriyama gave himself an especially time consuming design to draw page after page. Toriyama has stated in interviews that he gave himself too much work with Cell's spots. But I believe that even characters like Trunks, #17 and #18 have more design elements than previous main character designs. More buckles, more lines on their clothes and shoes and hair, etc. etc.
With Goku being the main character, he would be on the page more than anyone else, so a very easy way to save a ton of time would be to drop the kanji and loose belt. Each page with Goku on it would previously require to make sure he was drawing the kanji from the correct angle, and keep consistency with it. With the belt, he'd have to remember to include it during battle scenes and account for the angle and so on. Essentially, these two elements are fairly minor to the overall design of Goku and aren't even part of his overall silhouette, so I believe Toriyama dropped them to save time. I feel like a similar thing happened with Saiyan tails, and Vegeta's more elaborate Saiyan armor being slimmed down and simplified. He may have also just preferred the look, but I doubt it. Why?
With the end of the serialization, Toriyama was no longer under the same time constraints as before, and I believe he felt that Goku's design without the kanji lacked something. So he brought it back. It's just that simple.
I wonder if any of you very informed people have found any interviews with Toriyama that either back up or contradict my theory. I just like reading about his design process and feel like compared to the writing/story and even his panel layout skills, Toriyama's designs themselves go a little underappreciated and discussed.
My personal preference is either the Namek look, or the modern post-serialization design. I feel like the lack of kanji is often cited by fans as symbolizing Goku growing beyond the need of needing a martial arts master. But that was already symbolized when Kaio-sama gave Goku the dogi featuring Goku's personal kanji. To me, not having a kanji is almost like Superman without the S shield or Batman without the bat on their chests. I'm glad Toriyama reintegrated it into his designs and I always appreciate when I see fan artists include it in their drawings because I realize the kanji may be somewhat tricky to nail.
I'm not sure exactly how much discussion this will generate, so I would also be happy if this could become a sort of "Dragon Ball design/fashion appreciation" thread. Because, as we all know, this is REALLY Goku's best design:
Credit: Knew_Sky on Twitter
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
I'm completely embarrassed to admit I never noticed that Goku was kanjiless from the Artifical Human arc onwards. Jesus.
I think your analysis is spot on unless there's a hidden interview with Toriyama somewhere where he explains the changes. Your theory fits what we know about Toriyama and his tendencies of streamlining the drawing process for himself and his assistants.
I think your analysis is spot on unless there's a hidden interview with Toriyama somewhere where he explains the changes. Your theory fits what we know about Toriyama and his tendencies of streamlining the drawing process for himself and his assistants.
- LoganForkHands73
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:54 pm
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
Yeah, I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head OP, I too have considered that Toriyama was probably just trying to cut down on his workload (though as you say, it didn't stop him designing the Androids). He gave Yamcha a more elaborate design with a Kaio kanji but constantly found excuses to get rid of it, namely with the age-old "pierced through the chest" trick, until it just mysteriously vanished altogether.
As much as I like the various kanji designs, I'm also a huge sucker for the logoless version with the wider obi belt. I guess it's just pleasingly symmetrical, plus to me, it represents Goku getting down to business, losing all the unnecessary details and loose fabric. I don't mind the in-universe explanation you mention about him losing the kanji due to him no longer needing a master, since he mainly just sparred with Gohan and Piccolo in the lead-up to the Androids rather than train himself in artificial gravity like before, though I prefer to think Goku ruined too many gi sets in those three years, isn't a very good sewist, so just ditched the kanji out of frustration.
Also, damn, that fanart is insanely good! Looks exactly like Toriyama's modern digital art style.
As much as I like the various kanji designs, I'm also a huge sucker for the logoless version with the wider obi belt. I guess it's just pleasingly symmetrical, plus to me, it represents Goku getting down to business, losing all the unnecessary details and loose fabric. I don't mind the in-universe explanation you mention about him losing the kanji due to him no longer needing a master, since he mainly just sparred with Gohan and Piccolo in the lead-up to the Androids rather than train himself in artificial gravity like before, though I prefer to think Goku ruined too many gi sets in those three years, isn't a very good sewist, so just ditched the kanji out of frustration.
Also, damn, that fanart is insanely good! Looks exactly like Toriyama's modern digital art style.
- FortuneSSJ
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 5812
- Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:07 pm
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
Personally I always assumed the kanji was dropped because he became his own master and had stopped training under anyone.
Your logic seems to be the right answer considering the kanji is back now though.
Your logic seems to be the right answer considering the kanji is back now though.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.
- Trouser
- Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 440
- Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:02 am
- Location: Capsule Corp.
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
I think Toriyama was just lazy to draw kanji. When manga ended, he had more time and less job to do, so it came back.
edit: My personal favourite of Goku's dogi is the one from EoZ and GT. I like both versions the same. To me they are #1 ex aequo.
edit: My personal favourite of Goku's dogi is the one from EoZ and GT. I like both versions the same. To me they are #1 ex aequo.
"If it means having to live under your control, I'd rather be dead!" - Trunks
English is not my first language, if I've made a mistake, please, feel free to correct me. It will help, thanks.
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
Hahah, yes, Toei especially loves this shortcut. Most of the fight against Goku Black had Goku shot right through that particular area.LoganForkHands73 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 20, 2021 3:14 pm He gave Yamcha a more elaborate design with a Kaio kanji but constantly found excuses to get rid of it, namely with the age-old "pierced through the chest" trick, until it just mysteriously vanished altogether.
That's a pretty good explanation too, but Kaio-sama could have always poofed more of them into his closet like he did on the Namek spaceship if that was the case. lol...though I prefer to think Goku ruined too many gi sets in those three years, isn't a very good sewist, so just ditched the kanji out of frustration.
Also, damn, that fanart is insanely good! Looks exactly like Toriyama's modern digital art style.
Also, yes, Knew_Sky is probably my favorite fanartist at this point. I think he's up there with Dragon Garrow Lee at being able to emulate Toriyama's style.
Also, I think the whole "masterless" aspect of dropping the kanji, as I said earlier, doesn't hold water because the last kanji he drops is his own name. Wearing his own kanji already meant he was his own master/masterless.
- KBABZ
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 5180
- Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
- Location: The tallest tower in West City
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
We just covered this in the Rewatch thread actually! Yeah I postulated that it was done for time-saving reasons. The anime too also felt this; particularly rushed/unskilled teams would often depict the kanji like it was a whiteboard drawing, so I bet they appreciated this change too.
Now, how many of you noticed that Goku's House completely changes location in the anime after Toriyama depicted it in the manga for the first time?
Now, how many of you noticed that Goku's House completely changes location in the anime after Toriyama depicted it in the manga for the first time?
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
My question now is why Toei was able to reintegrate the kanji while Toyotaro does his absolute best to never have to draw a kanji. I think he even drops it from Kuririn's dogi in the ToP. I'd have to check.
And in the Moro arc, everyone gets the simplified Galactic Patrol emblem, and I understand it may be tedious to draw it every time, but Toriyama did it for a decade and on a weekly basis rather than monthly.
(Can you tell I'm not a huge Toyotaro fan?)
And in the Moro arc, everyone gets the simplified Galactic Patrol emblem, and
Spoiler:
(Can you tell I'm not a huge Toyotaro fan?)
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
A shortcut, yes, I suscribe to that theory, even though at that time Goku was pretty much out of comission, and the characters that had the most details on their design didn't suffer from it. The spots on Cell, if it was so tiresome to draw them, why didn't his perfect form get rid of that?
Personally, I like the kanji-less gi, the DBZ marketing department really sold that to me.
Personally, I like the kanji-less gi, the DBZ marketing department really sold that to me.
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
I agree with the idea that Toriyama dropped the kanji to save time.
My personal preference is the Namek-era gi, which they brought back in DBS Broly. I hope that if Super TV show comes back they will keep that gi.
My personal preference is the Namek-era gi, which they brought back in DBS Broly. I hope that if Super TV show comes back they will keep that gi.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
- KBABZ
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 5180
- Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
- Location: The tallest tower in West City
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
Easy: digital animation. The kanji can simply be inserted into the frame digitally and then warped to fit the deformation of the gi, if needed.
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
Ah, didn't think of that. I figured they could add it in, but not necessarily warp it.
Either way, reading Toyotaro's version always feels just a little off because of it. I'm sure I'm just being a weirdo about this, but it's just how I feel. Usually, Goku's shirt is getting blown up in a few chapters anyway, so it's not a big deal.
I think a big part of why many in the fandom may prefer the kanji-less look is sheer exposure. I wonder what fanart in 10 years will treat it. With many fans first exposure to the series being Super, will it look weird or off to fans to see Goku without an emblem?
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
I definitely think his Artificial Humans onward gi is my preference. It's just clean and I associate it with a "middle-aged" Goku. Somehow, the wide obi with Kanji symbol doesn't look quite right. It's an interesting way of gauging his age in the series, since obviously canonically we don't really see him age after reaching adulthood. So I can honestly say when I see him with Kanji and smaller obi, I just associate that with a younger Goku.
Thanos before Thanos was cool.
- KBABZ
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 5180
- Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
- Location: The tallest tower in West City
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
Shout-out to the redesign for battle of Gods with the Capsule Corp boots and the kimono-style overlap shirt. I really wish that was the standard look for him in Super.
Re: Goku's dogi and Toriyama's design shortcuts
Resurrection F*
He wears the classic dogi with the kanji and wide obi in Battle of Gods - see the SSJG picture above.
The RoF dogi is really neat, but I'm not a fan of the boots. A perfect blend for me would be the classic boots, the 'Go' kanji on that RoF dogi.
Wonder if anyone has done fanart of that.