Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:53 am

super michael wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:02 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:39 pm Uh...no, they could just not poorly write the women as awful caricatures of what they as poorly nurtured cishet men think women are like.

If one wishes to write about women one should consult women or just outright hire women to work hands-on to tell our stories.

"We have to write the women insultingly! For accuracy to the comic!!"
Why does it matter what gender the writer is when making a manga or anime? The writer could be bad and it has nothing to do if that person is male or female. My two least favourite characters are Chi Chi and Sakura (Naruto and Naruto Shippuden).
I am sure female writers write about men characters and there is no issue at all, so why would there be issues if men write about female characters?

If a character is written really bad, then that deserves to get criticized.
To be fair, a woman is significantly less likely to write a female character in a misogynistic manner than a man.
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by JulieYBM » Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:08 am

super michael wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:02 am
Tai Lung wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:26 pm
super michael wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:20 pm Not sure what number one has to do with them not needing to train, Goten and Trunks were both allowed to train during peace time in the Buu Saga. They were training before they even knew about the money, they trained when no money was involved. Should have continued that way in DBS.
No, They played ...
Because chichi has never liked fights
super michael wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:20 pm Goten and Trunks training = bigger gain than Goku and Vegeta. Gotenks with training would surpass Goku Black but they are given 0 chance. They have huge potential..
in the epilogue they didn't show getting anywhere
super michael wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:20 pm Vegeta didn't forbid Trunks from training with him just because he got hurt, Vegeta trained with him for the month before the tournament in the Gravity Chamber...
before that he didn't trained with him
super michael wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:20 pm Chapter 424 page 2 = Gohan asked about Trunks and Bulma says that Trunks is training with Vegeta. Bulma says that he wants to make Trunks stronger than Gohan and they should be in the gym and teach him. In Page 3 we see Trunks all sweating from training..
and Vegeta tells him .. that he will never bear that gravity and does not know that he can transform
super michael wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:20 pm Chapter 424 page 4 = Vegeta tells Gohan to don't ever stop training.
she is weak little or nothing will teach her ..because the manga doesn't show this
super michael wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:20 pm Chapter 427 Page 12 = Gohan wanted to skip school all for the intention of training, there is no hint that Gohan trained before he knew about the tournament.

Chapter 430 Page 14 = We see Goten and Gohan training hard in their Super Saiyan form.
Chapter 431 = Page 1-4 = We see everyone training hard for the tournament.

That is all the evidence. I have given you the chapter number and page number.

Trunks was training before Videl found out Gohan was Great Saiyanman, Goten was training while Gohan was studying in school.
.
Image
https://readmanganato.com/manga-me955161/chapter-430
Vegeta never trained much with him .. again he didn't even know what his true power was.
Chi Chi entered the 23rd Martial Art on her own free will, there was no hatred for Martial Arts and in the Buu Saga the same no hatred. In Yo Son Goku ova there was no hatred.
When Chi Chi was first introduced she had no hatred for Martial Arts.

As for playing, I do remember Goten saying he play fight with Trunks, which Gohan thinks to himself that if he slacks then Goten and Trunks will surpass him.

Thanks to DBS now we know why Goten and Trunks remains weak in DBZ EOZ, which I assume is the epilogue.

Bulma said that Trunks and Vegeta constantly train every days.

Vegeta says that 150x Gravity is man training, which clearly Trunks is a boy, that is until Trunks transforms and makes 150x look like childs play.

Master Roshi stated that Chi Chi knows the Turtle Hermit fighting style, which Chi Chi got praise from him. Those skills she can teach to Goten even if it isn't much and even if Chi Chi is weak.

We have Bulma stating that Vegeta and Trunks constantly training, so Vegeta not knowing Trunks has Super Saiyan isn't evidence.


In DBS Trunks only sparring partner if Goten isn't available is the Pilaf Gang, how pathetic is that writing.
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:39 pm Uh...no, they could just not poorly write the women as awful caricatures of what they as poorly nurtured cishet men think women are like.

If one wishes to write about women one should consult women or just outright hire women to work hands-on to tell our stories.

"We have to write the women insultingly! For accuracy to the comic!!"
Why does it matter what gender the writer is when making a manga or anime? The writer could be bad and it has nothing to do if that person is male or female. My two least favourite characters are Chi Chi and Sakura (Naruto and Naruto Shippuden).
I am sure female writers write about men characters and there is no issue at all, so why would there be issues if men write about female characters?

If a character is written really bad, then that deserves to get criticized.
Women are much less likely to write women terribly and also had a wider breadth to write in because they can at least draw from their own experiences as a woman living in our woman-hating society.
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:56 am

goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:49 am Its almost not even fair to compare the two, Bulma is so much more of an active character than Chi-Chi is.
Chi-Chi's entire character is damn near a punchline, anyway. She was literally just a one time character that Toriyana brought back when he decided Goku should have a wife and kid and needed the silliest way of getting there.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:40 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:56 am
goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:49 am Its almost not even fair to compare the two, Bulma is so much more of an active character than Chi-Chi is.
Chi-Chi's entire character is damn near a punchline, anyway. She was literally just a one time character that Toriyana brought back when he decided Goku should have a wife and kid and needed the silliest way of getting there.
I don't think I even realized the full extent of this until recently. I'm watching the RRA arc right now, and tbh Suno seemed like a more logical fit for Goku if Toriyama didn't want to go the comedic route.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by ZeroIsOurHero » Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:47 pm

Yeah, I have to agree that Bulma is pretty obviously better than Chi-Chi, from both a writing and likability standpoint. I mean, Bulma is a fleshed-out character with a positive, proactive role in the story, while Chi-Chi’s only two character traits are yelling and hating martial arts. And like someone said earlier, “hating martial arts” wasn’t even part of Chi-Chi’s character until Z.

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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:00 pm

She secretly trained Goten during the 7 year time skip, she doesn't hate martial arts she just prefers that her children have some sort of semblance of a normal life, which there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Funny thing about the anime is that its filler that plays up Chi-Chi's more annoying character traits, in the manga its almost easy to forget she exists, that's how much of a non factor she really is. Which isn't really bad writing, every character in a story has a role to play with obviously some being more important than others long term.
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:05 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:00 pm She secretly trained Goten during the 7 year time skip, she doesn't hate martial arts she just prefers that her children have some sort of semblance of a normal life, which there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Funny thing about the anime is that its filler that plays up Chi-Chi's more annoying character traits, in the manga its almost easy to forget she exists, that's how much of a non factor she really is. Which isn't really bad writing, every character in a story has a role to play with obviously some being more important than others long term.
Yeah, I'm quite sympathetic to Chi-Chi, moreso now than before, even though I never outright hated her or even disliked her. It's just that I appreciate Bulma's character a lot more now than as a kid. It's honestly not even fair to compare the two, since Bulma is a cornerstone of the series. I do wonder how the series might have gone had Chi-Chi kept up martial arts and taken an active role, though. I absolutely love the scene in Dead Zone where Chi-Chi attempts to fight Ginger to protect Gohan.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:11 pm

I think the main parts in the story where i didn't like Bulma as much was whenever her jealousy over Yamcha was taken to the extreme if he so much as even looked at another girl besides her regardless of the circumstances, because sometimes she took it to over the top irrational levels like in the Red Ribbon arc with the one part where he was basically getting attacked by the agent Husky. But does Bulma understand that? No, instead she flies into a jealously induced hissy fit and outright ASSAULTS him because she immediately jumps to the completely wrong conclusion that he was playing footsie with some other woman. Yeah, i can kinda see why Bulma was that way given her young age and all but damn girl. She never gave Yamcha any room to breathe and explain anything (his initial awkward shyness around girls didn't help matters) and i can see why that relationship eventually ended. She was far too jealous/judgemental/whatever and no matter how hard he tried he just couldn't make it work. Thankfully she matured with time, but in OG DB some of the things she does in that respect made me like her a little less.
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:12 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:11 pm I think the main parts in the story where i didn't like Bulma as much was whenever her jealousy over Yamcha was taken to the extreme if he so much as even looked at another girl besides her regardless of the circumstances, because sometimes she took it to over the top irrational levels like in the Red Ribbon arc with the one part where he was basically getting attacked by the agent Husky. But does Bulma understand that? No, instead she flies into a jealously induced hissy fit and outright ASSAULTS him because she immediately jumps to the completely wrong conclusion in her eyes that he was playing footsie with some other woman. Yeah, i can kinda see why Bulma was that way given her young age and all but damn girl. She never gave Yamcha any room to breathe and explain anything (his initial awkward shyness around girls didn't help matters) and i can see why that relationship eventually ended. She was far too jealous/judgemental/whatever and no matter how hard he tried he just couldn't make it work. Thankfully she matured with time, but in OG DB some of the things she does in that respect made me like her a little less.
Eh, sure, but she was a 16-year-old girl.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:18 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:12 pm
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:11 pm I think the main parts in the story where i didn't like Bulma as much was whenever her jealousy over Yamcha was taken to the extreme if he so much as even looked at another girl besides her regardless of the circumstances, because sometimes she took it to over the top irrational levels like in the Red Ribbon arc with the one part where he was basically getting attacked by the agent Husky. But does Bulma understand that? No, instead she flies into a jealously induced hissy fit and outright ASSAULTS him because she immediately jumps to the completely wrong conclusion in her eyes that he was playing footsie with some other woman. Yeah, i can kinda see why Bulma was that way given her young age and all but damn girl. She never gave Yamcha any room to breathe and explain anything (his initial awkward shyness around girls didn't help matters) and i can see why that relationship eventually ended. She was far too jealous/judgemental/whatever and no matter how hard he tried he just couldn't make it work. Thankfully she matured with time, but in OG DB some of the things she does in that respect made me like her a little less.
Eh, sure, but she was a 16-year-old girl.
I mean, i do get that Bulma was a teenager then and many things therein are what you would expect of someone her age. But i think even with that she was a little too over the top and irrational in her reactions at times especially in regard to the above mentioned. I know this was most likely done for comedic purposes especially that early on in the series given it's gag angle (though it was really starting to trend away from that in the RRA arc) but it felt to me personally a thing which made sort of like me like her less as a character compared to later on.

If anything, her entire relationship with Yamcha was toxic and dysfunctional all around. It seemed like they were fighting more often than doing things as a couple and they ultimately didn't go together very well.
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:48 am

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:18 pm I mean, i do get that Bulma was a teenager then and many things therein are what you would expect of someone her age. But i think even with that she was a little too over the top and irrational in her reactions at times especially in regard to the above mentioned. I know this was most likely done for comedic purposes especially that early on in the series given it's gag angle (though it was really starting to trend away from that in the RRA arc) but it felt to me personally a thing which made sort of like me like her less as a character compared to later on.

If anything, her entire relationship with Yamcha was toxic and dysfunctional all around. It seemed like they were fighting more often than doing things as a couple and they ultimately didn't go together very well.
That's probably accurate. Although Dragon Ball was no longer primarily a gag manga by the RRA arc, it still had plenty of those elements, from the whole fight with Ninja Murasaki to the stuff with General Blue and later Dr. Slump characters. And even with Tao, albeit darker.

I often wonder how Hayao Miyazaki would have written young Bulma. Probably with her best traits displayed and her worst traits toned down to fit the tone of the story. I could easily see her as a protagonist in one of his films.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:18 pm

Demon Prince Piccolo wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:48 am
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:18 pm I mean, i do get that Bulma was a teenager then and many things therein are what you would expect of someone her age. But i think even with that she was a little too over the top and irrational in her reactions at times especially in regard to the above mentioned. I know this was most likely done for comedic purposes especially that early on in the series given it's gag angle (though it was really starting to trend away from that in the RRA arc) but it felt to me personally a thing which made sort of like me like her less as a character compared to later on.

If anything, her entire relationship with Yamcha was toxic and dysfunctional all around. It seemed like they were fighting more often than doing things as a couple and they ultimately didn't go together very well.
That's probably accurate. Although Dragon Ball was no longer primarily a gag manga by the RRA arc, it still had plenty of those elements, from the whole fight with Ninja Murasaki to the stuff with General Blue and later Dr. Slump characters. And even with Tao, albeit darker.

I often wonder how Hayao Miyazaki would have written young Bulma. Probably with her best traits displayed and her worst traits toned down to fit the tone of the story. I could easily see her as a protagonist in one of his films.
Yes, it was pretty much over the heavily Dr. Slump-esque comedic style by that point but especially more so into the 22nd Budokai and King/Piccolo Daimao arcs where the leaning toward action really started that would would eventually be emphasized even further with DBZ and it's more sci fi direction. The direction that Toriyama was going early on with the series given he had just come off doing Dr. Slump for four years was where he started, then about the start of the Red Ribbon arc is when the trend toward action really came into effect.

Interesting note, especially since most if not all of Miyazaki's classic films that he made at Studio Ghibli over the course of his long career primarily featured young tween/teenage girls as the main characters. That seems to have been his personal preference, as i don't recall many of them really featuring boy/male characters in a protagonist role AFAIK but i figure that's what Miyazaki was used to doing since he started the company with Takahata in the mid '80s.
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:28 pm

Yeah, Miyazaki is a lolicon so I'm sure he'd have enjoyed using Blooma and Chi-Chi as protagonists. A Red Ribbon Army film under him would be something else.
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:30 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:28 pm Yeah, Miyazaki is a lolicon [...]
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:00 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:30 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 12:28 pm Yeah, Miyazaki is a lolicon [...]
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Yup. He admitted to falling in love with the female lead of Hakujaden, Bai Niang in 1958. Most of his works feature him repeating the same traumatic experience over and over as he tries to make sense of it. For example, in the May 1984 Nausicaä companion book Miyazaki talks with the interviewer about Nausicaä's 'rather large breasts', too. Miyazaki is on record as stating that he felt shame for how he felt and that he did not like how the Otaku of the 1980s who were falling in love with characters like Clarisse from his Lupin film were openly proud and making 'play' of their love of bishoujo characters. Otaku are a friendly and expressive bunch, so they formed communities as anime grew from the late 1950s into the formation of the Comic Market as well as the TV and theatrical anime boom instigated by Uchuu Senkan Yamato. We all know from interviews that Miyazaki is something of an asshole and dictator (which we can see in how animators disappear in his films) so it doesn't really surprise me that the issue is that Miyazaki probably has an anxiety disorder that kept him from making friends while most other Otaku did make friends.
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:27 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:00 pm Yup. He admitted to falling in love with the female lead of Hakujaden, Bai Niang in 1958.
Was Bai Niang a younger teenager? I'm pretty sure Miyazaki was around 17 when the film came out...
Most of his works feature him repeating the same traumatic experience over and over as he tries to make sense of it. For example, in the May 1984 Nausicaä companion book Miyazaki talks with the interviewer about Nausicaä's 'rather large breasts', too.
Okay, that is suspicious to the highest degree!
Miyazaki is on record as stating that he felt shame for how he felt and that he did not like how the Otaku of the 1980s who were falling in love with characters like Clarisse from his Lupin film were openly proud and making 'play' of their love of bishoujo characters. Otaku are a friendly and expressive bunch, so they formed communities as anime grew from the late 1950s into the formation of the Comic Market as well as the TV and theatrical anime boom instigated by Uchuu Senkan Yamato.
On one hand, this does indeed make him a massive hypocrite. On the other hand, in a vacuum, he might have had a point about some otaku becoming attracted to Clarisse--who was 16 as I recall--considering how lolicon culture would roll like a snowball in the following decades.
We all know from interviews that Miyazaki is something of an asshole and dictator (which we can see in how animators disappear in his films) so it doesn't really surprise me that the issue is that Miyazaki probably has an anxiety disorder that kept him from making friends while most other Otaku did make friends.
I totally agree with this take. I always supposed that his blatantly tyrannical attitude with his subordinate artists stemmed from some sort of deeper mental issues he had.
I guess kawaii art can be a bitch, eh?
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by Demon Prince Piccolo » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:29 pm

Eek well I'm not exactly surprised. But yeah, I think he would have made a hell of a film with Bulma as the lead.
The story of DRAGON BALL starts from the moment Goku met Bulma. I don't really mind the Z, so long as it's understood that it's not the true beginning of the story.

I actually prefer the Goku vs Tenshinhan and Goku vs Piccolo Jr. rivalries to the Goku vs Vegeta rivalry.

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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:58 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:27 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:00 pm Yup. He admitted to falling in love with the female lead of Hakujaden, Bai Niang in 1958.
Was Bai Niang a younger teenager? I'm pretty sure Miyazaki was around 17 when the film came out...
Most of his works feature him repeating the same traumatic experience over and over as he tries to make sense of it. For example, in the May 1984 Nausicaä companion book Miyazaki talks with the interviewer about Nausicaä's 'rather large breasts', too.
Okay, that is suspicious to the highest degree!
Miyazaki is on record as stating that he felt shame for how he felt and that he did not like how the Otaku of the 1980s who were falling in love with characters like Clarisse from his Lupin film were openly proud and making 'play' of their love of bishoujo characters. Otaku are a friendly and expressive bunch, so they formed communities as anime grew from the late 1950s into the formation of the Comic Market as well as the TV and theatrical anime boom instigated by Uchuu Senkan Yamato.
On one hand, this does indeed make him a massive hypocrite. On the other hand, in a vacuum, he might have had a point about some otaku becoming attracted to Clarisse--who was 16 as I recall--considering how lolicon culture would roll like a snowball in the following decades.
We all know from interviews that Miyazaki is something of an asshole and dictator (which we can see in how animators disappear in his films) so it doesn't really surprise me that the issue is that Miyazaki probably has an anxiety disorder that kept him from making friends while most other Otaku did make friends.
I totally agree with this take. I always supposed that his blatantly tyrannical attitude with his subordinate artists stemmed from some sort of deeper mental issues he had.
I guess kawaii art can be a bitch, eh?
Historically the term is also used with teen characters, like Clarisse and Lum from Takahashi Rumiko's works. The blatant sexualization of Blooma and Chi-Chi in Dragon Ball really isn't any different than what other cartoonists were doing in the 1980s, although there were also some more outright pornographic titles afloat, too.

I need to re-read some of the papers and books I have on Otaku history to brush up. It took me, like, ten minutes to write my previous post because I had to hunt through my copy of Otaku and the Struggle for Imagination in Japan to find those parts on Miyazaki again. :lol: I definitely suggest picking up a copy if you want to learn more about the history of Otaku because it's very illuminating. I've added the full Miyazaki section I referenced for these posts in this thread on Twitter. Interestingly, it seems like Arale-chan from Dr. Slump was also part of the Lolicon Boom.
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by PurestEvil » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:27 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:58 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:27 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:00 pm Yup. He admitted to falling in love with the female lead of Hakujaden, Bai Niang in 1958.
Was Bai Niang a younger teenager? I'm pretty sure Miyazaki was around 17 when the film came out...
Most of his works feature him repeating the same traumatic experience over and over as he tries to make sense of it. For example, in the May 1984 Nausicaä companion book Miyazaki talks with the interviewer about Nausicaä's 'rather large breasts', too.
Okay, that is suspicious to the highest degree!
Miyazaki is on record as stating that he felt shame for how he felt and that he did not like how the Otaku of the 1980s who were falling in love with characters like Clarisse from his Lupin film were openly proud and making 'play' of their love of bishoujo characters. Otaku are a friendly and expressive bunch, so they formed communities as anime grew from the late 1950s into the formation of the Comic Market as well as the TV and theatrical anime boom instigated by Uchuu Senkan Yamato.
On one hand, this does indeed make him a massive hypocrite. On the other hand, in a vacuum, he might have had a point about some otaku becoming attracted to Clarisse--who was 16 as I recall--considering how lolicon culture would roll like a snowball in the following decades.
We all know from interviews that Miyazaki is something of an asshole and dictator (which we can see in how animators disappear in his films) so it doesn't really surprise me that the issue is that Miyazaki probably has an anxiety disorder that kept him from making friends while most other Otaku did make friends.
I totally agree with this take. I always supposed that his blatantly tyrannical attitude with his subordinate artists stemmed from some sort of deeper mental issues he had.
I guess kawaii art can be a bitch, eh?
Historically the term is also used with teen characters, like Clarisse and Lum from Takahashi Rumiko's works. The blatant sexualization of Blooma and Chi-Chi in Dragon Ball really isn't any different than what other cartoonists were doing in the 1980s, although there were also some more outright pornographic titles afloat, too.

I need to re-read some of the papers and books I have on Otaku history to brush up. It took me, like, ten minutes to write my previous post because I had to hunt through my copy of Otaku and the Struggle for Imagination in Japan to find those parts on Miyazaki again. :lol: I definitely suggest picking up a copy if you want to learn more about the history of Otaku because it's very illuminating. I've added the full Miyazaki section I referenced for these posts in this thread on Twitter. Interestingly, it seems like Arale-chan from Dr. Slump was also part of the Lolicon Boom.
That was actually some fascinating information. Somewhat collar-tugging, but intriguing nonetheless.
From the way I see it, Miyazaki's interest in young female characters is a tragic product of his reckoning with his cynicism. I guess, in his case, his cynicism gave way to escapism after watching White Snake, as he found a tether which he could hang on to for satisfying his desires.
I'm still a bit confused, however, about whether he was properly sexually attracted to young girls or not. Although, I do find him speaking out against the otakus having "fun" with his characters to be a bit cruelly hilarious.
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Re: Who else likes Chi-Chi more than Bulma?

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:37 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:27 pm That was actually some fascinating information. Somewhat collar-tugging, but intriguing nonetheless.
From the way I see it, Miyazaki's interest in young female characters is a tragic product of his reckoning with his cynicism. I guess, in his case, his cynicism gave way to escapism after watching White Snake, as he found a tether which he could hang on to for satisfying his desires.
I'm still a bit confused, however, about whether he was properly sexually attracted to young girls or not. Although, I do find him speaking out against the otakus having "fun" with his characters to be a bit cruelly hilarious.
Well, 'lolicons' are understood within the Otaku world to not actually be attracted to real world kids, just the erotic context within the story. I myself don't actually want to be kidnapped by orcs and raped endlessly until I bare their children and then lead an invading army to overthrow the human kingdom but it's still an exciting fantasy to have. I think this is best shown in how these characters are drawn and written very fantastically or lacking in realistic personality traits. I'll use Uzaki Hana--a college student but nevertheless still very oppai loli-esque--as an example. Her teasing of her senpai is eroticized to feed into the desire of the author and reader to have (or perhaps be) an 'annoying, short, big breasted girlfriend who tortures them out of their shell' (in my case I'd prefer to be Uzaki). Similarly, in characters like Princess Clarisse from Lupin III, the Otaku sees a polite, cute, fragile but also tough girl for whom they can see struggle to overcome adversity and still swoop in to save from danger.

I wouldn't accuse Miyazaki of being attracted to real kids, just the fantasies he creates, which are far removed from reality. This is why his work is what I'd call 'pornographic' because while it might not involve sex or explicit nudity it provides him with the safe effect. Maid Dragon is similar, although it wears its erotic nature much more openly on its shoulder.

Similarly, I find Blooma as she appears in the 1986 cartoon series as drawn and performed to be exceedingly akin to Clarisse or any of the other 1980s Lolicon Boom bishoujo characters. She's very cute and her personality and the antics she is involved in are very fantastical. It is scenes like hers that make me wish Dragon Ball wasn't aimed at kids because they feel very much like they're written for a niche that I can at least appreciate.
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