Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Noah wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:05 am
This probably already have been discussed her in a few other threads, but I always had the impression Kikuchi loved composing themes like the ones he did for Piccolo, there are too many like these and I love them all.
I love that basically you have themes for Piccolo, or Saiyans and Gohan... Goku had the Makafushigi Adventure theme that still blended in into the first two Z movies, before he came to adopt the Chala-Head-Chala take in a similar manner.
Yeah, I miss Kikuchi. He was classic composer, like John Williams. The music wasn't just background music like it is mostly nowadays, but it was complementary to the story, part of the DNA.
MCDaveG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:11 am
Yeah, I miss Kikuchi. He was classic composer, like John Williams. The music wasn't just background music like it is mostly nowadays, but it was complementary to the story, part of the DNA.
Agreed. Animated Dragon Ball lost part of its identity when it moved away from Kikuchi's sound and started sounding "modern" (RE: generic). GT wasn't as bad in that regard since Tokunaga's score was kinda emulating Kikuchi, but from Kai onward Dragon Ball music just sounds so bland and generic now.
Which is surprising since Yamammoto (plagiarism aside) produced awesome music for the video games and would have filled the hole Kikuchi left if he had brought that kind of work to Kai, but for whatever reason he went in a different, more generic direction and so only a few of his Kai tracks reach the level of his video game work to me.
Last edited by Majin Buu on Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:27 am, edited 4 times in total.
Noah wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:05 am
This probably already have been discussed her in a few other threads, but I always had the impression Kikuchi loved composing themes like the ones he did for Piccolo, there are too many like these and I love them all.
I love that basically you have themes for Piccolo, or Saiyans and Gohan... Goku had the Makafushigi Adventure theme that still blended in into the first two Z movies, before he came to adopt the Chala-Head-Chala take in a similar manner.
Yeah, I miss Kikuchi. He was classic composer, like John Williams. The music wasn't just background music like it is mostly nowadays, but it was complementary to the story, part of the DNA.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words? Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up! Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes! Cold World (Fanfic) "It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
Noah wrote: ↑Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:05 am
This probably already have been discussed her in a few other threads, but I always had the impression Kikuchi loved composing themes like the ones he did for Piccolo, there are too many like these and I love them all.
I love that basically you have themes for Piccolo, or Saiyans and Gohan... Goku had the Makafushigi Adventure theme that still blended in into the first two Z movies, before he came to adopt the Chala-Head-Chala take in a similar manner.
Yeah, I miss Kikuchi. He was classic composer, like John Williams. The music wasn't just background music like it is mostly nowadays, but it was complementary to the story, part of the DNA.
actually yknow what? Upon examining these themes more closely, Gokus leitmotif from Movie 4 on actually is a play on Cha La Head Cha La, just in a more subtle way. It plays on the chorus rather than the more frequently utilized intro or opening melody of the verses.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words? Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up! Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes! Cold World (Fanfic) "It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
MCDaveG wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 7:11 am
Yeah, I miss Kikuchi. He was classic composer, like John Williams. The music wasn't just background music like it is mostly nowadays, but it was complementary to the story, part of the DNA.
Agreed. Animated Dragon Ball lost part of its identity when it moved away from Kikuchi's sound and started sounding "modern" (RE: generic). GT wasn't as bad in that regard since Tokunaga's score was kinda emulating Kikuchi, but from Kai onward Dragon Ball music just sounds so bland and generic now.
Which is surprising since Yamammoto (plagiarism aside) produced awesome music for the video games and would have filled the hole Kikuchi left if he had brought that kind of work to Kai, but for whatever reason he went in a different, more generic direction and so only a few of his Kai tracks reach the level of his video game work to me.
Maybe he saw Dragon Ball Z as a generic action series and wasn't really inspired in coming up with fitting music for that reason, the generic OST reflected his views on what the series was supposed to be.
There's also the fact that making music for video game OST and animated series OST are completely different frameworks.
Ashur wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:38 pm
Maybe he saw Dragon Ball Z as a generic action series and wasn't really inspired in coming up with fitting music for that reason, the generic OST reflected his views on what the series was supposed to be.
This I don't buy, considering those video games were for the same franchise.
There's also the fact that making music for video game OST and animated series OST are completely different frameworks.
True, and I think this gets to a more likely reason: Maybe his strengths as a video game composer in making dynamic sounding tracks didn't translate to TV.
Ashur wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:38 pm
Maybe he saw Dragon Ball Z as a generic action series and wasn't really inspired in coming up with fitting music for that reason, the generic OST reflected his views on what the series was supposed to be.
This I don't buy, considering those video games were for the same franchise.
Ashur wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:38 pm
Maybe he saw Dragon Ball Z as a generic action series and wasn't really inspired in coming up with fitting music for that reason, the generic OST reflected his views on what the series was supposed to be.
This I don't buy, considering those video games were for the same franchise.
There's also the fact that making music for video game OST and animated series OST are completely different frameworks.
True, and I think this gets to a more likely reason: Maybe his strengths as a video game composer in making dynamic sounding tracks didn't translate to TV.
Yup, and he composed and arranged songs on the original series (including both opening themes)
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words? Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up! Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes! Cold World (Fanfic) "It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:24 am
Yup, and he composed and arranged songs on the original series (including both opening themes)
That's a great point, and his work there was great too.
Perhaps it was easier for him to bring what worked about his video game tracks to the original TV series due to the limited capacity he was working in there. I imagine coming up with a full series BGM is very different from working on theme songs and insert songs (though Kikuchi was able to do both of those well based on his non-Dragon Ball work).
Wasn't one of the common criticisms of the Kikuchi score by the Japanese fandom is that even in the 80s his music sounded dated and like " an old Samurai film" (Which worked for me artistically but I can understand why others weren't as enthused). Seems like Kenji Yamamoto was probably told to create something more modern so he made it sound like a contemporary Hollywood blockbuster film right down to just taking music from then recent movies like Avatar and Terminator Salvation.
MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:18 pm
Wasn't one of the common criticisms of the Kikuchi score by the Japanese fandom is that even in the 80s his music sounded dated and like " an old Samurai film" (Which worked for me artistically but I can understand why others weren't as enthused). Seems like Kenji Yamamoto was probably told to create something more modern so he made it sound like a contemporary Hollywood blockbuster film right down to just taking music from then recent movies like Avatar and Terminator Salvation.
A mandate from Toei is likely, considering Toei only ever returned to Kikuchi for the JATS and after Yamamoto's plagiarism was exposed at the tail end of Kai 1.0. If only he had gone with a more unique style instead of standard Hollywood blockbuster film score music.
jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 11:24 am
Yup, and he composed and arranged songs on the original series (including both opening themes)
Are we still talking about Yamamoto? Cause it really doesn't matter that his strenght was in videogame soundtracks if he had plagiarism cases in these too.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Yamamoto was basically this guy from youtube, who does guitar covers or making his own takes on music of others, being a technically skilled musician who plays in bands where other people are composing songs.
But the guys on youtube do it mostly for free with crediting the original.
Yamamoto is really a weird and insane case, as I don't remember anyone doing something like that for so long.
As such, I would really leave him out of the comparison discussions, because he is not a classic composer in the first place, like Kikuchi, Tokunaga and Sumitomo are. He was basically an arranger who got promoted through some connections I guess.
Ashur wrote: ↑Tue Oct 11, 2022 11:38 pm
Maybe he saw Dragon Ball Z as a generic action series and wasn't really inspired in coming up with fitting music for that reason, the generic OST reflected his views on what the series was supposed to be.
Honestly, all he needed to do, or all the directors had to ask him to do, was basically what DBZ: Kakarot did, which was re-arrange the Kikuchi tracks. Hindsight isn't even needed to arrive at this idea.
Majin Buu wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 10:54 am
True, and I think this gets to a more likely reason: Maybe his strengths as a video game composer in making dynamic sounding tracks didn't translate to TV.
As is commonly known, he wasn't a composer in that field either, that would be the Metroid guy instead :p
MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Wed Oct 12, 2022 2:18 pm
Wasn't one of the common criticisms of the Kikuchi score by the Japanese fandom is that even in the 80s his music sounded dated and like " an old Samurai film" (Which worked for me artistically but I can understand why others weren't as enthused). Seems like Kenji Yamamoto was probably told to create something more modern so he made it sound like a contemporary Hollywood blockbuster film right down to just taking music from then recent movies like Avatar and Terminator Salvation.
Tbf, he did indeed sound different from his contemporaries at the time, whether peers or newcomers, but that was effectively the point (especially considering it's Toriyama). It worked where Dragon Ball was concerned for sure. And I've said this a lot before, but if they wanted something more modern sounding, they really had lots of other options besides Yamamoto for actually composing a new score, and I mean lots (like, literally anyone else).
Majin Buu wrote: ↑Wed Oct 05, 2022 9:13 amAgreed. Animated Dragon Ball lost part of its identity when it moved away from Kikuchi's sound and started sounding "modern" (RE: generic). GT wasn't as bad in that regard since Tokunaga's score was kinda emulating Kikuchi, but from Kai onward Dragon Ball music just sounds so bland and generic now.
Which is surprising since Yamammoto (plagiarism aside) produced awesome music for the video games and would have filled the hole Kikuchi left if he had brought that kind of work to Kai, but for whatever reason he went in a different, more generic direction and so only a few of his Kai tracks reach the level of his video game work to me.
Frankly, the video games suffered the same issue. Maybe it was the first Raging Blast or Burst Limit but around that time the music (aside from Xenoverse) for the games has really devolved into guitar wankery. Some generic melody while some guitarist improvises solos over it. Like, it’s super jarring compared to how inspired and diverse the music in the games used to have. A lot of it sounds like “edgy” FUNimation DVD menu music from the early 2000’s. Definitely feels like something’s missing in that regard on the newer games.
