It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by super michael » Sun May 02, 2021 2:52 pm

Pan and Bra wins in the genetic lottery they are hybrid Saiyan which is better potential than full blooded Saiyan. Lets hope they don't get given the Goten and Trunks treatment.
Bra was born when Vegeta had Super Saiyan 2 and God Ki, while Pan was born when Gohan had Super Saiyan 2 and magic that unlocked his potential in base form.

Videl is full blooded human like Mr Satan, Krillin, Yamcha, etc, so her powers would be very limited.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 02, 2021 2:53 pm

I don’t think Videl needed to be super strong to still have some relevance in the story. Bulma isn’t a fighter at all, but she’s more relevant now than ever. Hell, Mr. Satan is a pretty significant character in the Boo arc. If Toriyama had any interest in Videl, he probably could’ve found a way to keep her semi-relevant, without making her as strong as the Saiyans.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun May 02, 2021 2:59 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:25 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:24 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:00 pm Videl was very much a victim of Toriyama’s decision to move away from making Gohan the main character.
Why? How? Chi Chi isn’t very important despite being Goku’s wife. I don’t see how Gohan no longer being the main character would have benefitted Videl.
What? He is saying that Videl got screwed over when Toriyama decided that Gohan would not be a main character.
I am aware and I’m asking where is the evidence of this is. Like Jjgp said, Gohan didn’t really lose his main character status until he got absorbed and Videl had long since been thrown in the background. I know Goku still being a main character is like a favorite scapegoat but no.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Dr. Casey » Sun May 02, 2021 3:01 pm

Yeah, I agree that there's not really any way to realistically make Videl powerful enough to be relevant during the two days the Buu arc proper entails. None of the power-ups featured in the series give that huge or rapid of a power boost; they're more along the lines of characters becoming several times stronger after months or years of training (with the exception of the Holy Water, Elder Guru, and the Z Sword), not becoming billions of times stronger within 48 hours. But in fairness to Julie, yeah, there's no reason Videl couldn't have been strong enough to participate more by the timeframe of Super.
Bulma isn’t a fighter at all, but she’s more relevant now than ever. Hell, Mr. Satan is a pretty significant character in the Boo arc. If Toriyama had any interest in Videl, he probably could’ve found a way to keep her semi-relevant, without making her as strong as the Saiyans.
That is true, and there's many more examples where that comes from. Yajirobe didn't do any fighting after killing Cymbal, but he was still basically the deuteragonist for much of the Piccolo Daimao arc.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun May 02, 2021 3:02 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 1:28 pm "It's a comic for boys, therefore the writing for the women has to suck and re-enforce negative societal expectations of women" is really dumb when you consider:

1. The cis boys reading these comics need to see women as more than just their nagging mothers or helpless girls who need to be saved.
2. The trans boys reading these comics need to see positive portrayals of men.
3. The trans girls reading these comics need to see positive portrayals of women, cis or otherwise.

Cis boys are not the only people who consume shounen comics nor are they the only people that those comics influence. Media informs how we see the world and people different from us, so it's important to not just make trash where gender roles are re-enforced.
Cis boys aren't the only people who consume these comics but they're the target audience. And I never said the writing of women has to suck. That's just the way it's going to play out in a comic that prioritizes comedy and fight scenes. With the important characters set in stone there's only so many things that can be done with the women introduced and, as we've seen with Gine and Videl, when the story tries to do a normie, non combatant woman it falls flat on its face. And as we've seen with Kale and Caulifa there isn't enough time to make combatant women fleshed out enough to be interesting.
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:59 pm I am aware and I’m asking where is the evidence of this is. Like Jjgp said, Gohan didn’t really lose his main character status until he got absorbed and Videl had long since been thrown in the background. I know Goku still being a main character is like a favorite scapegoat but no.
Because when Gohan fell into the background she had to be stepfordized. Her personality evaporated in order to make Gohan's transition into a normal desk jockey easier. If Gohan retained a main character role, once the plot moved away from combat she'd have gotten a more definitive personality like Goku's inner circle (Gohan, ChiChi, Krillin) enjoys.

Pretty obvious once you hop of DB's cock for a couple seconds.
Last edited by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips on Sun May 02, 2021 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Yuji » Sun May 02, 2021 3:06 pm

Dr. Casey wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:01 pmThat is true, and there's many more examples where that comes from. Yajirobe didn't do any fighting after killing Cymbal, but he was still basically the deuteragonist for much of the Piccolo Daimao arc.
And integral to the Vegeta fight in spite of being outmatched by everyone there.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 02, 2021 3:07 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:59 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:25 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:24 pm

Why? How? Chi Chi isn’t very important despite being Goku’s wife. I don’t see how Gohan no longer being the main character would have benefitted Videl.
What? He is saying that Videl got screwed over when Toriyama decided that Gohan would not be a main character.
I am aware and I’m asking where is the evidence of this is. Like Jjgp said, Gohan didn’t really lose his main character status until he got absorbed and Videl had long since been thrown in the background. I know Goku still being a main character is like a favorite scapegoat but no.
There is no concrete “evidence.” It’s just an observation I made, based on what we know about Toriyama’s thought process when writing the story at that point. It seems difficult to believe that Toriyama was perfectly on board with Gohan being the main character, right up until he got absorbed. That happens pretty late in the story. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t buy that Gohan not being the one to kill Boo was a last minute decision. He also apparently planned on having Goku fuse with Vegeta well before it actually happened, so there’s that.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun May 02, 2021 3:10 pm

Well I mean, he gave Gohan the hard sell when he returned to Earth. Farewell hug from Goku, inheriting his clothes, the big entrance, everything. I think Toriyama made a genuine effort to make it work then just realized it didn't feel the same. He was quite literally trying to put Gohan in a Goku costume and eventually decided, "Why bend Gohan into an imitation when I can go back to the real thing?"

Toriyama has two protagonists he gravitates towards: the naive, aloof weirdo who breaks all the rules just by existing (Arale, Goku) while the other is what I can only assume Toriyama making fun of himself: an goofball who earnestly tries to be seen as cool and awesome but is really a dork (Senbei Norimaki, Neko Majin, Jaco) [What I'm saying is I can sooner see a DB spinoff about King Kai than anyone else]. Gohan's neither, but he certainly tried to bend him into the latter, and then tried to bend him into a hero that could fill Goku's shoes. If he keeps having to alter the guy, he might as well just go back to what he knows.
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Sun May 02, 2021 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun May 02, 2021 3:18 pm

Yuji wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:06 pm
Dr. Casey wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:01 pmThat is true, and there's many more examples where that comes from. Yajirobe didn't do any fighting after killing Cymbal, but he was still basically the deuteragonist for much of the Piccolo Daimao arc.
And integral to the Vegeta fight in spite of being outmatched by everyone there.
Which is something the series, games, and characters all pretend didn't happen!

So there's probably a good reason why fans tend to forget
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun May 02, 2021 3:24 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:02 pm
Because when Gohan fell into the background she had to be stepfordized. Her personality evaporated in order to make Gohan's transition into a normal desk jockey easier. If Gohan retained a main character role, once the plot moved away from combat she'd have gotten a more definitive personality like Goku's inner circle (Gohan, ChiChi, Krillin) enjoys.

Pretty obvious once you hop of DB's cock for a couple seconds.
Right :roll: :roll:

Toriyama does not have a pattern of not knowing what to do with female characters. It was only because Gohan lost his main character status that Videl was reduced to housewife. Just like how Goku being a main character kept Chi chi relevant and not a joke character.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 02, 2021 3:28 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:24 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:02 pm
Because when Gohan fell into the background she had to be stepfordized. Her personality evaporated in order to make Gohan's transition into a normal desk jockey easier. If Gohan retained a main character role, once the plot moved away from combat she'd have gotten a more definitive personality like Goku's inner circle (Gohan, ChiChi, Krillin) enjoys.

Pretty obvious once you hop of DB's cock for a couple seconds.
Right :roll: :roll:

Toriyama does not have a pattern of not knowing what to do with female characters. It was only because Gohan lost his main character status that Videl was reduced to housewife. Just like how Goku being a main character kept Chi chi relevant and not a joke character.
Again, Chi-Chi was hardly relevant to begin with. That’s not a good comparison.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun May 02, 2021 3:29 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:07 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:59 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:25 pm

What? He is saying that Videl got screwed over when Toriyama decided that Gohan would not be a main character.
I am aware and I’m asking where is the evidence of this is. Like Jjgp said, Gohan didn’t really lose his main character status until he got absorbed and Videl had long since been thrown in the background. I know Goku still being a main character is like a favorite scapegoat but no.
There is no concrete “evidence.” It’s just an observation I made, based on what we know about Toriyama’s thought process when writing the story at that point. It seems difficult to believe that Toriyama was perfectly on board with Gohan being the main character, right up until he got absorbed. That happens pretty late in the story. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t buy that Gohan not being the one to kill Boo was a last minute decision. He also apparently planned on having Goku fuse with Vegeta well before it actually happened, so there’s that.
Sure, we don’t know 100 percent the exact moment Toriyama said “Yeah Gohan’s not going to work” but Gohan being put of commission via nearly being murdered by Fat Boo and take to Kaioshin’s planet to trak so the B team could fight Boo is consistent with Toriyama’s locked in formula of having Goku put out of commission so the other characters could fight the big bad until he arrived. Like I’m gonna hazard Gohan lost his main character destiny sometime between Toriyama setting the stage for him to get his massive power up and Goku being restored to life.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun May 02, 2021 3:32 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:02 pm

Because when Gohan fell into the background she had to be stepfordized. Her personality evaporated in order to make Gohan's transition into a normal desk jockey easier. If Gohan retained a main character role, once the plot moved away from combat she'd have gotten a more definitive personality like Goku's inner circle (Gohan, ChiChi, Krillin) enjoys.

Pretty obvious once you hop of DB's cock for a couple seconds.
Do you actually like Dragon Ball???

Chi-Chi has no character besides Goku's wife and Gohan's overprotective mother. She was never an important part of the show. Shit, you could've put Suno in Chi-Chi's role in the 23rd Tournament and it wouldn't have changed a single thing...shit, it might've actually been more romantic since Goku wasn't just rigidly sticking to an ignorant promise.

I imagine Videl would've just become someone who ocasionally slaps Gohan upside the head or quite literally Chi-Chi 2.0: girl with martial arts aspirations who becomes a school-obsessed mom, making Gohan into Son Oedipus.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun May 02, 2021 3:37 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:28 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:24 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:02 pm
Because when Gohan fell into the background she had to be stepfordized. Her personality evaporated in order to make Gohan's transition into a normal desk jockey easier. If Gohan retained a main character role, once the plot moved away from combat she'd have gotten a more definitive personality like Goku's inner circle (Gohan, ChiChi, Krillin) enjoys.

Pretty obvious once you hop of DB's cock for a couple seconds.
Right :roll: :roll:

Toriyama does not have a pattern of not knowing what to do with female characters. It was only because Gohan lost his main character status that Videl was reduced to housewife. Just like how Goku being a main character kept Chi chi relevant and not a joke character.
Again, Chi-Chi was hardly relevant to begin with. That’s not a good comparison.
Again there’s Toriyama’s general track record of female characters. Videl isn’t an isolated example. She became irrelevant as soon as Spopivitch beat her down. Videl being another “Well she’s a wife and mother so that’s her role now” character seems more of a reflection of Toriyama being a Japanese man who was born in the 50s

18 also suffered from this just not as bad because she’s significantly more powerful of a combatant.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 02, 2021 3:44 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:37 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:28 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:24 pm

Right :roll: :roll:

Toriyama does not have a pattern of not knowing what to do with female characters. It was only because Gohan lost his main character status that Videl was reduced to housewife. Just like how Goku being a main character kept Chi chi relevant and not a joke character.
Again, Chi-Chi was hardly relevant to begin with. That’s not a good comparison.
Again there’s Toriyama’s general track record of female characters. Videl isn’t an isolated example. She became irrelevant as soon as Spopivitch beat her down. Videl being another “Well she’s a wife and mother so that’s her role now” character seems more of a reflection of Toriyama being a Japanese man who was born in the 50s

18 also suffered from this just not as bad because she’s significantly more powerful of a combatant.
I can’t exactly argue against the fact that Toriyama isn’t good with female characters. He even inexplicably chose to keep #18 out of the action in Resurrection ‘F’, just so she could look after Marron. However, Videl was set up to be a prominent character, so the fact that she gets pushed to the sidelines is more noticeable than with Chi-Chi, who was little more than a one note joke character when she was introduced.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun May 02, 2021 3:44 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:32 pm
Chi-Chi has no character besides Goku's wife and Gohan's overprotective mother. She was never an important part of the show. Shit, you could've put Suno in Chi-Chi's role in the 23rd Tournament and it wouldn't have changed a single thing...shit, it might've actually been more romantic since Goku wasn't just rigidly sticking to an ignorant promise.
I dunno there’s something sweet about Goku marrying the daughter of his grandfather’s childhood best friend/former sparring partner. And Chi Chi being a hick like Goku I think informed her later tiger mom persona that shaped Gohan’s character...I can’t see that with Suno.
I imagine Videl would've just become someone who ocasionally slaps Gohan upside the head or quite literally Chi-Chi 2.0: girl with martial arts aspirations who becomes a school-obsessed mom, making Gohan into Son Oedipus.
I think Videl started out as “Oh Gohan fell for a woman who reminded him of his mom” but Chi Chi’s character is built on playing off Goku. Goku is kind of a lousy husband and his lack of education and being obsessed with fighting is what gives us Chi Chi wanting their son to be different and nagging at Goku for not being a good husband.

But when you have Gohan, who is a much more ideal husband and father, and has a good job it’s really hard to keep Videl like Chi Chi so we get “traditional homemaker” instead

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun May 02, 2021 3:54 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:44 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:32 pm
Chi-Chi has no character besides Goku's wife and Gohan's overprotective mother. She was never an important part of the show. Shit, you could've put Suno in Chi-Chi's role in the 23rd Tournament and it wouldn't have changed a single thing...shit, it might've actually been more romantic since Goku wasn't just rigidly sticking to an ignorant promise.
I dunno there’s something sweet about Goku marrying the daughter of his grandfather’s childhood best friend/former sparring partner. And Chi Chi being a hick like Goku I think informed her later tiger mom persona that shaped Gohan’s character...I can’t see that with Suno.
Good point. I word vomit a lot.

And our discussion of Gohan, responsible, career-focused father and husband goes back to why he doesn't fit as the main character. In a martial arts schlock-fest, he's best used as a supporting character whose priority issues are a secondary plot.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun May 02, 2021 4:04 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:32 pm Do you actually like Dragon Ball???
Yes? I'm pretty sure I do. Been following the series long enough.
Chi-Chi has no character besides Goku's wife and Gohan's overprotective mother. She was never an important part of the show. Shit, you could've put Suno in Chi-Chi's role in the 23rd Tournament and it wouldn't have changed a single thing...shit, it might've actually been more romantic since Goku wasn't just rigidly sticking to an ignorant promise.
ChiChi has a ton of personality. Probably too much personality (which is why the animators could over rely on her for a cheap gag). She's rigid in her views of social norms, she's passionate about her family, she has an overly romanticized view of married life, is incredibly ignorant of the larger world, has a very fiery temper, seems to think arguments are won by whoever is the loudest (relatable tbh). ChiChi leaves an impression.

Sure, plot wise you could replace her with Suno but then you'd have Goku married to Puar, a nothing character whose defining trait is that there's someone they're supportive of.
I imagine Videl would've just become someone who ocasionally slaps Gohan upside the head or quite literally Chi-Chi 2.0: girl with martial arts aspirations who becomes a school-obsessed mom, making Gohan into Son Oedipus.
Which would have at least made for a funny gag!

And I don't think that would have been the natural evolution of their relationship. Videl could have easily become the flip side of her father, a hopelessly outclassed fighter looking to push past her limits and constantly bullying Gohan into training with her. Gohan having to sneak off to study for his finals only for Videl to find him, admonish him for wasting his time, and dragging him off to go blow up rocks could have been a recurring gag. Heck, Videl could have become a parody of the sort of fan who doesn't think 'scholar' is a stupid thing to want to be when you're super human making Gohan the straight man constantly having to point out that rent and food cost money.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by PurestEvil » Sun May 02, 2021 4:35 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:04 pm And I don't think that would have been the natural evolution of their relationship. Videl could have easily become the flip side of her father, a hopelessly outclassed fighter looking to push past her limits and constantly bullying Gohan into training with her. Gohan having to sneak off to study for his finals only for Videl to find him, admonish him for wasting his time, and dragging him off to go blow up rocks could have been a recurring gag. Heck, Videl could have become a parody of the sort of fan who doesn't think 'scholar' is a stupid thing to want to be when you're super human making Gohan the straight man constantly having to point out that rent and food cost money.
LMAO, that sort of shit would not fly in Japan, I am certain a ton of parents would complain about Toriyama influencing schoolchildren to skip their studies or something (/j).

But in all seriousness, that would honestly make Videl look even more like a nagging bitch than Chi Chi. At least Chi Chi respects Goku's lifestyle, she just gets frustrated at his neglectful tendencies. Videl forcing Gohan to do what she wants would be blatantly toxic, to say the least.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by SuperSunnyDee » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:14 pm

I forgot how much fun Videl used to be. She had such a spunk and nosiness to her. I felt like she was a great character for Gohan to bounce off of and it was really neat how she would actually help out in fighting crime. I really wish they had pushed for that. I mean at that point you could write her into eventually being the chief of police or something. You’d be making use of something previously established instead of making a girl a stay at home wife for the third time. Nothing wrong with being a housewife but it seems like that’s all Toriyama can come up with for his strong female characters. Heck it’d be fun to see her maybe being Krillin’s boss and establish deeper friendships between the families.

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