It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

[MyVisionity]

An argument can be made about the asymmetry between misogyny and misandry, but denial is objectively wrong. I suppose those radfems who say "all men are trash" or that they want to abort male fetuses do not exist.

We're talking about misogyny/misandry on the systemic level, not on the interpersonal level or some other lower stage. The existence of those groups you refer to does not support the notion of any kind of structural misandry.

[goku the krump dancer]

Misandry isn't real, sir. Men are not oppressed by women for being men. That is not a thing that exists.

That is some "Power+prejudice" deception.
An argument can be made about the asymmetry between misogyny and misandry, but denial is objectively wrong. I suppose those radfems who say "all men are trash" or that they want to abort male fetuses do not exist.

Some conversations just arent worth the energy but I'm glad someone else pointed it out without me having to so THANK YOU for that.

So to avoid going down another senseless rabbit hole, I'll bring up some points that people just haven't tried to counter but deflected into their own personal world views.

1. Why would her personality be the same when she was only really acting that way because at the time she didnt know what she didnt know?

2. How is it somehow misogynistic and not equality for her to get beaten up when she chose to participate in an "ALL GENDER INCLUSIVE" fighting competition?

3. People are conveniently forgetting that #18 was a major antagonist in the previous arc and in two different scenarios she beat up or even killed the big, sweaty, meat head men. She HUMBLED Vegeta and made him realize that despite Super Saiyan being the holy grail of Saiyan folklore, there're still beings out there who can outstrip them in power and thus there must be higher levels to reach.

4. Why is a word like humble being held in the same light as a term like misogyny? Since when was it wrong to tell people that they may need to humble themselves a bit?

[PurestEvil]

An argument can be made about the asymmetry between misogyny and misandry, but denial is objectively wrong. I suppose those radfems who say "all men are trash" or that they want to abort male fetuses do not exist.

We're talking about misogyny/misandry on the systemic level, not on the interpersonal level or some other lower stage. The existence of those groups you refer to does not support the notion of any kind of structural misandry.

Julie said misandry does not exist full stop. I DID address that Misogyny has more power in patriarchal structure than Misandry.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Misandry isn't real, sir. Men are not oppressed by women for being men. That is not a thing that exists.

That is some "Power+prejudice" deception.
An argument can be made about the asymmetry between misogyny and misandry, but denial is objectively wrong. I suppose those radfems who say "all men are trash" or that they want to abort male fetuses do not exist.

Some conversations just arent worth the energy but I'm glad someone else pointed it out without me having to so THANK YOU for that.

So to avoid going down another senseless rabbit hole, I'll bring up some points that people just haven't tried to counter but deflected into their own personal world views.

1. Why would her personality be the same when she was only really acting that way because at the time she didnt know what she didnt know?

2. How is it somehow misogynistic and not equality for her to get beaten up when she chose to participate in an "ALL GENDER INCLUSIVE" fighting competition?

3. People are conveniently forgetting that #18 was a major antagonist in the previous arc and in two different scenarios she beat up or even killed the big, sweaty, meat head men. She HUMBLED Vegeta and made him realize that despite Super Saiyan being the holy grail of Saiyan folklore, there're still beings out there who can outstrip them in power and thus there must be higher levels to reach.

4. Why is a word like humble being held in the same light as a term like misogyny? Since when was it wrong to tell people that they may need to humble themselves a bit?

First the word isnt humble, its humbling. I know it doesnt sound like much of a difference but humbling IS a loaded term, especially when refering to the beating up of a girl. I will not say "Your an evil misogynist" but you are being irresponsible with the way you word things.

[MasenkoHA]

1. Why would her personality be the same when she was only really acting that way because at the time she didnt know what she didnt know?

She was quick tempered. How does learning about ki control and finding out her dad aint shit any correlation to cooling off (to the point of an absolute loss of personality) ? She didn’t have a swell head.

2. How is it somehow misogynistic and not equality for her to get beaten up when she chose to participate in an "ALL GENDER INCLUSIVE" fighting competition?

Context matters. It’s not that she got beat up. It’s that it was one of the brutal one sided fights in the series history and for the most part she never fights again. After that she stays in the sidelines cheering or worrying about Gohan and then becoming a complacent wife and mother.

3. People are conveniently forgetting that #18 was a major antagonist in the previous arc and in two different scenarios she beat up or even killed the big, sweaty, meat head men. She HUMBLED Vegeta and made him realize that despite Super Saiyan being the holy grail of Saiyan folklore, there're still beings out there who can outstrip them in power and thus there must be higher levels to reach.

Nobody is forgetting anything. Vegeta and Videl aren’t even in the same continent of comparability. Vegeta is a genocidal war criminal who is one of the strongest warriors in the universe. Videl is mostly a normal teenage girl who just learned to fly. 18’s defeat over Vegeta is nowhere near as one sided or brutal as Spopovitch’s beat down on Videl. Vegeta was allowed to keep on fighting and just doubled down on getting stronger. Videl was sidelined and essentially retired from fighting.

And yeah of course Videl never would have been able to keep up with the main cast when it came to intergalactic threats but there are ways to do this without showing her brutally get beat down.

4. Why is a word like humble being held in the same light as a term like misogyny? Since when was it wrong to tell people that they may need to humble themselves a bit?

Again context matters. She was “humbled” as a fighter by getting her ass beat. “Women need to be put in their place “ is still a pervasive line of thought in society. It’s incredibly common for men to jump to “if women want equality men should be allowed to hit women lol” instead of realizing nobody should be hitting anyone.

They could have easily humbled her by having her use two functional brain cell to realize how much stronger Gohan is than her dad and that his friends and family are way out of her league just by witnessing them.

But no she gets “humbled” by getting her ass beats and then just stands around worrying about Gohan the whole time.

[ABED]

Again context matters. She was “humbled” as a fighter by getting her ass beat. “Women need to be put in their place “ is still a pervasive line of thought in society. It’s incredibly common for men to jump to “if women want equality men should be allowed to hit women lol” instead of realizing nobody should be hitting anyone.

This is in the context of a combat sport.

[MasenkoHA]

Again context matters. She was “humbled” as a fighter by getting her ass beat. “Women need to be put in their place “ is still a pervasive line of thought in society. It’s incredibly common for men to jump to “if women want equality men should be allowed to hit women lol” instead of realizing nobody should be hitting anyone.

This is in the context of a combat sport.

Not the point. The point isn’t that she got beat by a man in a combat sport. The point is she was a gung ho firecracker that her beat down was one sided and the story pretty much relishes in her torture (lets focus on Spopovitch crushing her head, let’s show her get her teeth knocked out lets linger on Spopovitch bouncing her up and down on his knees) and then she becomes Gohan’s cheerleader and housewife after that.

People need to quit cherry picking the issues and comparing it to something else. The whole picture is what matters here. It’s not just that she got humbled. It’s not just that the fight was brutal. It’s not just that she retired from fighting. It’s that the story depicts her as being a tough as nails fighter in her own right with an attitude that then gets her ass beat in a completely one sided manner, has a male character needing to avenge her, and then she just gets sidelined and spends the rest of the time worrying about him and then became a homemaker with no personality. All in a story that barely uses female characters as is.

[ABED]

Him being a man is incidental. Like any normal person, she was in over her head. The scale of the story was such that there was no way to have her contribute in any meaningful way other than in the frst part of the arc where the scale was far smaller.

The story doesn't ever show her as being tough as nails. People here have got to stop overselling her. She's shown as stronger than your average person, but when she goes up against anything other than a ham and egger, she's hopelessly outclassed, and not because she's a woman. She was destined to always be a supporting character once the story got into the main conflict against Buu. I understand DB has a bad trend of not making good use of female characters, but we do have to understand the kind of story being told. Bulma's technical expertise has a clear function in DB that allows her to contribute in a meaningful way. 18 was an incredibly powerful antagonist that sadly got sidelined once her part in the story was complete. What is Videl's skillset and function? She's a stronger than average normal person who is by comparison to our heroes a newbie. Find a way to have her help in a way that doesn't stretch the credibility of even DB.

[goku the krump dancer]

The fight only lasted that long because she refused to quit, if anything it shows that she has has heart more than anything else. Sure Spopovich could've just flung her out the ring at any moment but he's the bad guy so you wouldn't expect that from him any way.

Her choosing to back off from joining Gohan and the others to see what Supreme Kai was talking about was her being wise and not stupid, she learned from her mistake during her tournament match, her mistake being "not knowing when to back off". She realize she was out classed and that she'd only slow Gohan down if things go too serious (which it did). Even if she chose to keep going she would've got spat on along side Krillin and Piccolo, you know, the "riff raff" as Dabura put it.

1. Why would her personality be the same when she was only really acting that way because at the time she didnt know what she didnt know?

She was quick tempered. How does learning about ki control and finding out her dad aint shit any correlation to cooling off (to the point of an absolute loss of personality) ? She didn’t have a swell head.

Once Boo is defeated we fast forward 10 years to where it shows that she and Gohan are married and have a family together, where is there any room for her to still be this "Spunky, Tough as Nails, energetic, quick tempered, firery go getter" that some of you seem to see her as? Why would she still act that way towards Gohan of all people, who's not only her husband but also the most polite character in the entire series? If anything it'll just come off as her being extremely crass for no reason thus being deemed arguably worse than "Nagging ChiChi".

[JulieYBM]

An argument can be made about the asymmetry between misogyny and misandry, but denial is objectively wrong. I suppose those radfems who say "all men are trash" or that they want to abort male fetuses do not exist.

We're talking about misogyny/misandry on the systemic level, not on the interpersonal level or some other lower stage. The existence of those groups you refer to does not support the notion of any kind of structural misandry.

Julie said misandry does not exist full stop. I DID address that Misogyny has more power in patriarchal structure than Misandry.

I was speaking within the context of symmetry. I figured that the context clues of the discussion made that clear but apparently not.

[PurestEvil]

We're talking about misogyny/misandry on the systemic level, not on the interpersonal level or some other lower stage. The existence of those groups you refer to does not support the notion of any kind of structural misandry.

Julie said misandry does not exist full stop. I DID address that Misogyny has more power in patriarchal structure than Misandry.

I was speaking within the context of symmetry. I figured that the context clues of the discussion made that clear but apparently not.

Well I apologize for my misunderstanding

[jjgp1112]

First the word isnt humble, its humbling.

?????????????

So we're just talking about the gerund here?

It does reach a point where you're just treating her with kid gloves when you won't apply the same definition of what happened to her that you would when Vegeta's being an arrogant dickhead (and misogynistic towards 18 at that!) and getting his arm turned into a pretzel.

[MasenkoHA]

when you won't apply the same definition of what happened to her that you would when Vegeta's being an arrogant dickhead (and misogynistic towards 18 at that!) and getting his arm turned into a pretzel.

Again the whole picture matters here. When Vegeta got put in his place he didn’t become Bulma’s dutiful house husband with no bark or bite who just sat in the sidelines and gushed over how amazing Kakarotto is. He doubled down got stronger and far surpassed the person who defeated him. And is pretty much co-protagonist with Goku in Super.

And before the bad faith arguments come in.

Videl does not need to be able to keep up with the aliens and the half machines and people trained by old martial arts masters

Videl does not need a role comparable to the Saiyans


But for god sake stop comparing what happened to her with what happened to Vegeta. One character got to be stronger for it. The other learned her place and became a stepford wife.


You can have Videl butt heads with Chi Chi. You can have Videl fighting low level crime the Z warriors don’t need to worry about as Saiyawoman. You can have Videl be a reverse Chi Chi where she wants Pan to be a a martial artist like her family. Like anything

[ABED]

Vegeta was introduced as a big bad. He was a featured player. Videl was introduced as someone who fought curtain jerkers in a romcom. She's destined to not be that important in the long run. The whole thread is about how she's wasted. What function can she serve to the story beyond a side character?

You can have Videl butt heads with Chi Chi. You can have Videl fighting low level crime the Z warriors don’t need to worry about as Saiyawoman. You can have Videl be a reverse Chi Chi where she wants Pan to be a a martial artist like her family. Like anything

I agree that there are better uses for her than as simply a housewife, but even if they do that, how much screentime is this worth?

Stepford Wife? Talk about exaggeration.

[jjgp1112]

when you won't apply the same definition of what happened to her that you would when Vegeta's being an arrogant dickhead (and misogynistic towards 18 at that!) and getting his arm turned into a pretzel.

Again the whole picture matters here. When Vegeta got put in his place he didn’t become Bulma’s dutiful house husband with no bark or bite who just sat in the sidelines and gushed over how amazing Kakarotto is. He doubled down got stronger and far surpassed the person who defeated him. And is pretty much co-protagonist with Goku in Super.

And before the bad faith arguments come in.

Videl does not need to be able to keep up with the aliens and the half machines and people trained by old martial arts masters

Videl does not need a role comparable to the Saiyans


But for god sake stop comparing what happened to her with what happened to Vegeta. One character got to be stronger for it. The other learned her place and became a stepford wife.


You can have Videl butt heads with Chi Chi. You can have Videl fighting low level crime the Z warriors don’t need to worry about as Saiyawoman. You can have Videl be a reverse Chi Chi where she wants Pan to be a a martial artist like her family. Like anything

Vegeta got stronger but continued the same behavior even after getting humbled and suffered even more embarrassments until he finally learned his place and stopped being a moron.

[Jackal puFF]

She was so badass when she appeared. I really hope they can show her sparring with Pan and Mr Satan. She still has so much potential to shine.

[super michael]

So Gohan a kid being beaten close to death by Reccoom in a life or death battle is ok, but Videl the teenage who was beaten really bad is wrong.

Why does it matter if it is a male or female that gets beaten up, if they choose to fight then that isn’t forced.

Gohan didn’t have the choice to back down, if he did he would get killed, so his only option was fight for survival. Gohan almost died in that battle.

Videl on the other hand she had the option to give up the fight whenever she wanted, but she chose to fight. She was beaten up really bad but not to the point of almost dying.

I actually don't think showing a kid getting his neck broken is appropriate for a kids comic. If I'm writing a story for adults, then sure, I'd probably do something like that without batting too many eyes, but that's a separate conversation.

Anyway, vacuums: we do not live in them. Cis men systemically control the lives of women, so the manner in which women are portrayed in mainstream media is important because media influences norms and mores.

Signed,
A bisexual trans woman who grew up fearing herself because of how normalized portraying trans women as ugly, serial killing psychopathic 'men in dresses'

In many manga there is no problem with a kid getting beat up, so I don't see the problem to be honest. It isn't like that will have any negative effect on someone.

I always separate the manga from the writer, that means what I see in the manga is what I talk about the manga. I don't try to assume what the manga writers intention was or the editor. I guess in short I try to keep discussion in-universe.

I don't know if the word humble is correct or not, but if it is wrong can someone tell me the correct word. At one point Goku thought he was the best since he defeated King Piccolo. It took Mr Popo beating him to show Goku that there are always opponent stronger than him. Of course Goku wasn't injured by that lesson, but then again Mr Popo isn't evil or bad.

Videl thought she was the best, she wasn't aware how out classed she was against other fighters. This is normal since she probably didn't experience losing at all, people gets arrogant when they win a lot, like I mentioned with Goku after beating King Piccolo.
When Spopovich beat her up, what she should have done afterward is train hard to at least become super human. Become strong enough that bullets can't hurt her and powerful enough to fight powerful aliens.

Plus we saw that Videl likes to fight, learn skills and be the best fighter. Videl showed she was a prodigy by learning to fly fast, that is something Master Roshi has never been able to do which is fly. Chi Chi and Yajirobe can't fly and they are super humans.



Like I said if they could add Mr Satan into the mix to fight Moro men, then there was no reason not to add Videl. They could have enemies appears near Videl location and then Videl fights that enemy.

Videl is the first human and only human to be involved in the Super Saiyan God Ritual, she temporarily turned Super Saiyan thanks to Pan inside. I don't see why she couldn't get Super Saiyan.

[MasenkoHA]

Vegeta got stronger but continued the same behavior even after getting humbled and suffered even more embarrassments until he finally learned his place and stopped being a moron.

And continued to be the second most important character of the series. It’s about the whole not the parts. Videl calming down is not bad. Videl getting quickly sidelined is not bad. Even Videl getting beat up is not necessarily bad when she’s a character in a kung fu cartoon. But all those parts together are bad.

. The whole thread is about how she's wasted. What function can she serve to the story beyond a side character?

I agree on the terms she came in way too late and was far to normal to be a major player in the story (without heavy pandering anyways) my problems lies within her personality lobotomy and how the story got from spunky girl to dutiful wife and mother.


Like I said way in the beginning of the thread it felt like Toriyama wanted Gohan to marry his mom then remembered Chi Chi wasn’t well liked but forgot to give her a personality as a replacement. But also Chi Chi’s progression felt natural and lacked the unfortunate subtext of a woman needing to learn her place is in the kitchen.

When I think wasted female combatant I think Android 18.

[ABED]

She was so badass when she appeared. I really hope they can show her sparring with Pan and Mr Satan. She still has so much potential to shine.

How was she a badass? Capable and driven against low level criminals, but that's hardly badass.

Plus we saw that Videl likes to fight, learn skills and be the best fighter. Videl showed she was a prodigy by learning to fly fast,

Do we really know that's all that quick?

I don't see why she couldn't get Super Saiyan.

Because she's not a Saiyan.

[super michael]

She was so badass when she appeared. I really hope they can show her sparring with Pan and Mr Satan. She still has so much potential to shine.

How was she a badass? Capable and driven against low level criminals, but that's hardly badass.

This is my opinion but what made her great are these things below:

1st She kept the city safe from criminals by fighting them, a teenager fighting adults with weapons.
2nd She was able to figure out Gohan identity and almost figured out that Gohan was the golden fighter.
3rd Videl was able to learn to fly, a skill which not even Master Roshi, Chi Chi and Yajirobe can use despite being super human.
4th Videl even though she was greatly outmatched against Spovovich, she never gave up. She put 100% effort into her fight.
5th She is the only person that has no connection to Goku and his friends and family who knew Mr Satan was a fake and didn't beat Cell, when she found out Gohan identity that confirmed it.

Do we really know that's all that quick?

Videl learned to fly in less than a month, in my book that is really fast. Videl was able to float a bit in one day, which was stated in chapter 429 page 11/14. It took 10 days for Videl to be able to freely fly which is stated in chapter 430 page 13/14, I don't know about you but that is super fast.

Because she's not a Saiyan.

She is 100% human true, but during the ritual she herself was Super Saiyan. She gained the trade mark of having yellow hair.
Edit I checked the movie and looks like that never happens, that is my bad.

Edit you should put my name in the 2nd and 3rd quote, because people may think Jackal puFF said those qutoes.