It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by JulieYBM » Sun May 02, 2021 11:50 am

super michael wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:49 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:41 am Ignoring the misogyny behind Videl just...not being allowed to fight would be better writing, so they should go with that.

Saiyans get magical power ups because they're male characters and the plot calls for it. It's godfuckingawful so while we're goofing off and not making Serious Thespian Art we might as well dick around and let Videl and Chi-Chi fight.

While we're at it, Yamcha being a joke is boring. Lets give him a cool Shida Naotoshi fight scene.
Caulifla, Kale and Kefla are Saiyans who are super strong. They gained Super Saiyan 1, Super Saiyan 2 and Legendary Super Saiyan in a short time span, even though they didn't know those transformations existed.

Lets not forget that Universe 7 has female Saiyans now since there Pan and Bra. Right now they are babies but I am sure they will grow up to be strong, we know Pan likes to train and fight due to her scene in EOZ.

As for Chi Chi she was personally training Goten, meaning that she herself started to train. Too bad that was dropped in DBS.
Drops in an ocean.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun May 02, 2021 11:56 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:50 am
super michael wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:49 am Caulifla, Kale and Kefla are Saiyans who are super strong. They gained Super Saiyan 1, Super Saiyan 2 and Legendary Super Saiyan in a short time span, even though they didn't know those transformations existed.

Lets not forget that Universe 7 has female Saiyans now since there Pan and Bra. Right now they are babies but I am sure they will grow up to be strong, we know Pan likes to train and fight due to her scene in EOZ.

As for Chi Chi she was personally training Goten, meaning that she herself started to train. Too bad that was dropped in DBS.
Drops in an ocean.
It's a shonen. 'Drops in an ocean' is about as high profile as women get in a shonen. Target demo and all that stuff.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by JulieYBM » Sun May 02, 2021 12:03 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:56 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:50 am
super michael wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:49 am Caulifla, Kale and Kefla are Saiyans who are super strong. They gained Super Saiyan 1, Super Saiyan 2 and Legendary Super Saiyan in a short time span, even though they didn't know those transformations existed.

Lets not forget that Universe 7 has female Saiyans now since there Pan and Bra. Right now they are babies but I am sure they will grow up to be strong, we know Pan likes to train and fight due to her scene in EOZ.

As for Chi Chi she was personally training Goten, meaning that she herself started to train. Too bad that was dropped in DBS.
Drops in an ocean.
It's a shonen. 'Drops in an ocean' is about as high profile as women get in a shonen. Target demo and all that stuff.
I'm a woman who has literally had her account on this forum for a shounen comic for more than half of her life. I KNOW the issues at hand, I'm going to continue to argue that they're bullshit excuses.

The children who read and watch shounen need proper treatment for women in their stories, too.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Yuji » Sun May 02, 2021 12:06 pm

Videl and Chi-Chi have both settled down into retirement pretty well, and they were never prominent or important fighters to begin with to justify their return (such as Muten Roshi or the other Earthlings). There are other female fighters in the series that are justifiably strong and get their own piece of the pie, and more can be introduced to replace whichever niche you feel Videl and Chi-Chi could have filled as fighters.

They can be important narratively in small-scale conflicts or by writing interesting character scenarios and interactions that suit their personalities, not by disregarding internal consistency and throwing them to the largest-scale conflicts in the universe for the sake of making up for botched execution. The ship has sailed, and if they want to catch up, they need to take a wooden raft and not a hydroplane.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by super michael » Sun May 02, 2021 12:22 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:03 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:56 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:50 am

Drops in an ocean.
It's a shonen. 'Drops in an ocean' is about as high profile as women get in a shonen. Target demo and all that stuff.
I'm a woman who has literally had her account on this forum for a shounen comic for more than half of her life. I KNOW the issues at hand, I'm going to continue to argue that they're bullshit excuses.

The children who read and watch shounen need proper treatment for women in their stories, too.
When it comes to anime I don't really care if a character is male or female, as long as they are written good that is all that matters. I can name a few shounen that treats female good:

Digimon
Yashahime (Inuyasha continuation)
Pokemon
Boruto (Naruto continuation)
Dragon Quest Dai Great Adventure

But I can understand that there are anime that treats woman like objects or slaves which is wrong. Like an example Bulma.

However anime like Naruto makes the male character look weak and pathetic by letting Sakura beat them up for no reason or silly reason with no retaliation at all.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by JulieYBM » Sun May 02, 2021 12:35 pm

super michael wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:22 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:03 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 11:56 am

It's a shonen. 'Drops in an ocean' is about as high profile as women get in a shonen. Target demo and all that stuff.
I'm a woman who has literally had her account on this forum for a shounen comic for more than half of her life. I KNOW the issues at hand, I'm going to continue to argue that they're bullshit excuses.

The children who read and watch shounen need proper treatment for women in their stories, too.
When it comes to anime I don't really care if a character is male or female, as long as they are written good that is all that matters. I can name a few shounen that treats female good:

Digimon
Yashahime (Inuyasha continuation)
Pokemon
Boruto (Naruto continuation)
Dragon Quest Dai Great Adventure

But I can understand that there are anime that treats woman like objects or slaves which is wrong. Like an example Bulma.

However anime like Naruto makes the male character look weak and pathetic by letting Sakura beat them up for no reason or silly reason with no retaliation at all.
The number of anime with fleeting moments in which a woman is written well are few and far between because they exist as out-growths of a system that is still extremely misogynistic and exclusionary of anyone who is not a cisgender, heterosexual male who is in most cases neuronormative (not autistic) and abled (not disabled). At JUMP in particular women are barred from being editors. So, when your only creators of widely-read comics for children are cishet men you are inevitably going to create comics that in majority perpetuate the misogynistic norms of society.

Anyway, those Sakura scenes are gags. Likely because Kishimoto is immature and doesn't feel comfortable writing women in general and also because JUMP in general just doesn't have very many roles for female characters.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sun May 02, 2021 12:55 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:03 pm I'm a woman who has literally had her account on this forum for a shounen comic for more than half of her life. I KNOW the issues at hand, I'm going to continue to argue that they're bullshit excuses.

The children who read and watch shounen need proper treatment for women in their stories, too.
It's not really a bullshit excuse. A more mixed cast where characters are better developed might lead to a better story but target demos are target demos for a reason. They let the writing staff zero in on who they need to pander to, with what, and what they can get away with. In other words, they let the writers focus on a specific vision for the show. Dragon Ball is a comedic power fantasy for boys so the cast is going to be tailored to make that easier. Now, lots of "male fantasy" stories manage to incoporate women into them but those stories tend to have much more complicated characters and problems that can't just be punched through. In DB the most you're going to get is someone like 18 or whatever Caulifla and Kale are supposed to be doing. Anything else and the series would lose its gag first feeling.
My opinions suck. You should probably mute me to spare yourself having to see them.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by super michael » Sun May 02, 2021 12:56 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:35 pm
super michael wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:22 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:03 pm

I'm a woman who has literally had her account on this forum for a shounen comic for more than half of her life. I KNOW the issues at hand, I'm going to continue to argue that they're bullshit excuses.

The children who read and watch shounen need proper treatment for women in their stories, too.
When it comes to anime I don't really care if a character is male or female, as long as they are written good that is all that matters. I can name a few shounen that treats female good:

Digimon
Yashahime (Inuyasha continuation)
Pokemon
Boruto (Naruto continuation)
Dragon Quest Dai Great Adventure

But I can understand that there are anime that treats woman like objects or slaves which is wrong. Like an example Bulma.

However anime like Naruto makes the male character look weak and pathetic by letting Sakura beat them up for no reason or silly reason with no retaliation at all.
The number of anime with fleeting moments in which a woman is written well are few and far between because they exist as out-growths of a system that is still extremely misogynistic and exclusionary of anyone who is not a cisgender, heterosexual male who is in most cases neuronormative (not autistic) and abled (not disabled). At JUMP in particular women are barred from being editors. So, when your only creators of widely-read comics for children are cishet men you are inevitably going to create comics that in majority perpetuate the misogynistic norms of society.

Anyway, those Sakura scenes are gags. Likely because Kishimoto is immature and doesn't feel comfortable writing women in general and also because JUMP in general just doesn't have very many roles for female characters.
I wasn't aware that female wasn't allowed to be an editors at JUMP, that is wrong to be honest. If that person is skillful to be an editor then that person should be allowed to become a editor regardless of that person gender.

People says that Kishimoto has no skill in writing female character, I think that is only an excuse. I think your explanation about Kishimoto is good.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by JulieYBM » Sun May 02, 2021 1:28 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:55 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:03 pm I'm a woman who has literally had her account on this forum for a shounen comic for more than half of her life. I KNOW the issues at hand, I'm going to continue to argue that they're bullshit excuses.

The children who read and watch shounen need proper treatment for women in their stories, too.
It's not really a bullshit excuse. A more mixed cast where characters are better developed might lead to a better story but target demos are target demos for a reason. They let the writing staff zero in on who they need to pander to, with what, and what they can get away with. In other words, they let the writers focus on a specific vision for the show. Dragon Ball is a comedic power fantasy for boys so the cast is going to be tailored to make that easier. Now, lots of "male fantasy" stories manage to incoporate women into them but those stories tend to have much more complicated characters and problems that can't just be punched through. In DB the most you're going to get is someone like 18 or whatever Caulifla and Kale are supposed to be doing. Anything else and the series would lose its gag first feeling.
"It's a comic for boys, therefore the writing for the women has to suck and re-enforce negative societal expectations of women" is really dumb when you consider:

1. The cis boys reading these comics need to see women as more than just their nagging mothers or helpless girls who need to be saved.
2. The trans boys reading these comics need to see positive portrayals of men.
3. The trans girls reading these comics need to see positive portrayals of women, cis or otherwise.

Cis boys are not the only people who consume shounen comics nor are they the only people that those comics influence. Media informs how we see the world and people different from us, so it's important to not just make trash where gender roles are re-enforced.
super michael wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 12:56 pmI wasn't aware that female wasn't allowed to be an editors at JUMP, that is wrong to be honest. If that person is skillful to be an editor then that person should be allowed to become a editor regardless of that person gender.

People says that Kishimoto has no skill in writing female character, I think that is only an excuse. I think your explanation about Kishimoto is good.
Not to talk down to you as if I'm your mother or anything but you'll find the older you get that the more society appears to be less and less the meritocracy you might think it is. Sucks in some respects, but I also believe that the idea of 'competition' instead of cooperation is completely bunk. Luckily platforms like the internet and the advancement of drawing tablets make it easier for marginalized creators (women, people of color, queer people, et cetera) can get their content out to the masses easily. Now we just need to unencumber those creative processes by guaranteeing housing, food and leisure to all people.

Anyway, getting back on track: with regards to Kishimoto he definitely suffers from what a lot of JUMP authors (and authors of comics aimed at males) suffer from in that he writes like he's never had a female friend in his life. I definitely get a sense that men view women as being different from men on some mystical 'biological' level and I think that definitely feeds off of centuries-long ingrained ideas about gender and gender roles. It's nonsense and definitely something I wish people thought more about so that we could at least improve how creators approach gender. Of course, allowing women, people of color, queer people, neurodivergent and disabled people into the creative space--whether independent creative spaces or corporate creative spaces--will enrichen those outcomes.

Anyway, this post is way too long at this point my bad y'all.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by Nosferatu93 » Sun May 02, 2021 1:44 pm

Like the whole brand not just her.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 02, 2021 2:00 pm

Videl was very much a victim of Toriyama’s decision to move away from making Gohan the main character.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by MasenkoHA » Sun May 02, 2021 2:24 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:00 pm Videl was very much a victim of Toriyama’s decision to move away from making Gohan the main character.
Why? How? Chi Chi isn’t very important despite being Goku’s wife. I don’t see how Gohan no longer being the main character would have benefitted Videl.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by PurestEvil » Sun May 02, 2021 2:25 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:24 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:00 pm Videl was very much a victim of Toriyama’s decision to move away from making Gohan the main character.
Why? How? Chi Chi isn’t very important despite being Goku’s wife. I don’t see how Gohan no longer being the main character would have benefitted Videl.
What? He is saying that Videl got screwed over when Toriyama decided that Gohan would not be a main character.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 02, 2021 2:27 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:24 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:00 pm Videl was very much a victim of Toriyama’s decision to move away from making Gohan the main character.
Why? How? Chi Chi isn’t very important despite being Goku’s wife. I don’t see how Gohan no longer being the main character would have benefitted Videl.
Chi-Chi was never as important as Videl was at the start of the Boo arc. Her relationship with Gohan is probably the closest the series has ever come to having a well developed romance, which is something Chi-Chi never had with Goku.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by JulieYBM » Sun May 02, 2021 2:28 pm

I think it's telling how we're framing the conversation as "Female character needs male character to be relevant." Really goes to show where the start point for acceptable discourse lie.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 02, 2021 2:30 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:28 pm I think it's telling how we're framing the conversation as "Female character needs male character to be relevant." Really goes to show where the start point for acceptable discourse lie.
I wasn’t suggesting that. I was saying that Toriyama seemed to just forget about Videl once he decided to drop Gohan as the main character.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun May 02, 2021 2:33 pm

It wasn't really until the Elder Kai restores Goku's life Deus Ex Machina that the idea of Gohan as the main character was truly discarded, and Videl had already been thrown in the bushes by then. Her significance as a character in a story like Dragon Ball was only really possible for the four chapters it was grounded in high school silliness.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 02, 2021 2:38 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:33 pm It wasn't really until the Elder Kai restores Goku's life Deus Ex Machina that the idea of Gohan as the main character was truly discarded, and Videl had already been thrown in the bushes by then. Her significance as a character in a story like Dragon Ball was only really possible for the four chapters it was grounded in high school silliness.
Even before that point, Toriyama already seemed to have apprehensions about Gohan being the main character. He was also setting up Goten and Trunks to be more significant than they ultimately ended up being, and Goku in general has more to do than Gohan does in the Boo arc. The Boo arc as a whole was basically Toriyama throwing things at the wall to see what stuck.

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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by JulieYBM » Sun May 02, 2021 2:39 pm

The decision to have Videl's strength limited was a conscious decision, though. There's no reason why having her be capable of greater power couldn't have been written into the story.
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Re: It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

Post by jjgp1112 » Sun May 02, 2021 2:44 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:38 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:33 pm It wasn't really until the Elder Kai restores Goku's life Deus Ex Machina that the idea of Gohan as the main character was truly discarded, and Videl had already been thrown in the bushes by then. Her significance as a character in a story like Dragon Ball was only really possible for the four chapters it was grounded in high school silliness.
Even before that point, Toriyama already seemed to have apprehensions about Gohan being the main character. He was also setting up Goten and Trunks to be more significant than they ultimately ended up being, and Goku in general has more to do than Gohan does in the Boo arc. The Boo arc as a whole was basically Toriyama throwing things at the wall to see what stuck.
Eh, you gotta remember, when Goku and Vegeta were having their tiff, Gohan's adventures with Supreme Kai were still placed front and center and Gohan was basically given the "If only Goku were here!" plot-removal role that is usually assigned to...well, Goku! Fusion was just the story spinning its wheels until Gohan came back...but then Toriyama just abandoned the idea of Gohan once that moment happened.

I think what wound up happening is Toriyama didn't want Gohan's fight with Buu to just end in an anticlimactic beatdown, which is why he pulled out the explosive temper tantrum card he also used with Frieza and Cell...but I think once he did that, he realized he would just have more fun doing all that with Goku in the main role instead of Gohan. And since he was probably always planning on bringing Vegeta back, he probably also realized Vegeta's return would only really be significant with Goku back in the fold, and so all that was the final nail in the coffin.
JulieYBM wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 2:39 pm The decision to have Videl's strength limited was a conscious decision, though. There's no reason why having her be capable of greater power couldn't have been written into the story.
It wouldn't have made any sense. He was already pushing it with the kids but at least they won the genetic lottery. Some teenage girl who's the daughter of a guy who doesn't even believe in Ki being stronger than any human in the history of the show would be fanfic nonsense, and that's coming from a guy who writes fanfic nonsense.
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