It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Did... did you just seriously say Spopovich humbled Videl? You know that implies she was a woman who dared step off her place and that she got what she had coming? Because that's what the term means. Please either use another term if you didnt mean that or if you did stop being awful.

[jjgp1112]

Did... did you just seriously say Spopovich humbled Videl? You know that implies she was a woman who dared step off her place and that she got what she had coming? Because that's what the term means. Please either use another term if you didnt mean that or if you did stop being awful.

Way to shovel some loaded words in his mouth. She got humbled no worse than Vegeta did for all of the dumbass shit he did

She was the daughter of a guy who lied himself to the top of the food chain, got arrogant as a result, and then realized that her and her father are actually insignificant ants.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I know it is and that I am being really unfair. But he should know how loaded that term is when referring to women.

[MyVisionity]

No, Cure Dragon 255 is right. It does imply exactly what he said. Spopovich's beating of Videl represents much more than simply "humbling" her.

[goku the krump dancer]

Lord have mercy can y'all stop trying to move the Goal Post?! My point is that she isn't the same woman post Boo arc as she was during it.

I'd hardly put humility on the same level as something like "Mysoginy" but I think it applies pretty well to her situation, I mean she was no mass murderer like Vegeta but this girl was RUNNING into armed robberies bare handed against dudes with machine guns and because she came out on top more often than not and because of her fathers false reputation, she clearly had a chip on her shoulder thinking she was hot shit until she met her half alien classmate and the muscle man possessed by a roach wizard.

Did... did you just seriously say Spopovich humbled Videl? You know that implies she was a woman who dared step off her place and that she got what she had coming? Because that's what the term means. Please either use another term if you didnt mean that or if you did stop being awful.

Way to shovel some loaded words in his mouth. She got humbled no worse than Vegeta did for all of the dumbass shit he did

She was the daughter of a guy who lied himself to the top of the food chain, got arrogant as a result, and then realized that her and her father are actually insignificant ants.

THANK YOU!

[coola]

Lord have mercy can y'all stop trying to move the Goal Post?! My point is that she isn't the same woman post Boo arc as she was during it.

I'd hardly put humility on the same level as something like "Mysoginy" but I think it applies pretty well to her situation, I mean she was no mass murderer like Vegeta but this girl was RUNNING into armed robberies bare handed against dudes with machine guns and because she came out on top more often than not and because of her fathers false reputation, she clearly had a chip on her shoulder thinking she was hot shit until she met her half alien classmate and the muscle man possessed by a roach wizard.

Did... did you just seriously say Spopovich humbled Videl? You know that implies she was a woman who dared step off her place and that she got what she had coming? Because that's what the term means. Please either use another term if you didnt mean that or if you did stop being awful.

Way to shovel some loaded words in his mouth. She got humbled no worse than Vegeta did for all of the dumbass shit he did

She was the daughter of a guy who lied himself to the top of the food chain, got arrogant as a result, and then realized that her and her father are actually insignificant ants.

THANK YOU!

In early Dragon Ball, martial artists were shown to be either immune to gunshots, or could easily catch them, i doubt Videl was weaker than pre 21th Budokai Goku or Bora.

Not sure if i would call Videl arrogant, she seriously trained for tournament, and said her father got lazy and actually want someone to beat some sense into him.

[Koitsukai]

But Videl did dare to step off her place, in the sense that she was a weakling fighting a juggernaut enhanced by an evil wizard to awaken Majin Buu. Even after Goku and Gohan advised her to back off, she kept going, she literally DARED TO STEP OFF HER PLACE even if she didn't know it. Just like her father stepped off his place against Cell and got what he had coming.

It's not a matter of gender, it's a matter of a weak ass race tangling with actual threats out of their league.

[ankokudaishogun]

In early Dragon Ball, martial artists were shown to be either immune to gunshots, or could easily catch them, i doubt Videl was weaker than pre 21th Budokai Goku or Bora.

Sure she was weaker than pre-21Tenkaichi Goku. He started as massively superhuman even compared to most martial artists.
Before learning Ki, she might have been at best about as strong as Bandit Yamcha.


The whole thread comes out as a "We have a lot of strong independent women who do not need no men, but they are not the one I want, so they do not count."

Videl works perfectly as foil to Nagging Chichi, Seducer Bulma and Mercenary #18 by being... a perfectly normal, well-adjusted wife and mother, happy with her life and her family.
Which is basically unheard of, in DB.

Not to say I wouldn't like to see more of her: I feel she should be more involved whenever Gohan has to fight, if only by showing her reactions to it.

[JulieYBM]

But Videl did dare to step off her place, in the sense that she was a weakling fighting a juggernaut enhanced by an evil wizard to awaken Majin Buu. Even after Goku and Gohan advised her to back off, she kept going, she literally DARED TO STEP OFF HER PLACE even if she didn't know it. Just like her father stepped off his place against Cell and got what he had coming.

It's not a matter of gender, it's a matter of a weak ass race tangling with actual threats out of their league.

Nothing is written in a vacuum. Toriyama specifically chose to use Videl for this role. If he has a kink for violence against woman I won't shame him for it but contextually it makes no sense to suddenly switch to this hyper-violent slaughter of a young girl character introduced as the 'lead' character's new deurtagonist in a magazine aimed at young, still-developing children (mostly 'boys') from a company run exclusively by what are most likely cishet-passing men. This being a company that exclusively does not consult the voice of women and minorities in its depictions of them even today.

A man writing and drawing a fight like that is entirely different from a woman writing and drawing a fight like that because woman actually do undergo physical and emotional abuse like that from men.


Anyway, gimme Indiana Jones Videl and Gohan going on adventures and then playing house couple on the side to break up the action.

[super michael]

So Gohan a kid being beaten close to death by Reccoom in a life or death battle is ok, but Videl the teenager who was beaten really bad is wrong.

Why does it matter if it is a male or female that gets beaten up, if they choose to fight then that isn’t forced.

Gohan didn’t have the choice to back down, if he did he would get killed, so his only option was fight for survival. Gohan almost died in that battle.

Videl on the other hand she had the option to give up the fight whenever she wanted, but she chose to fight. She was beaten up really bad but not to the point of almost dying.

Edit i like the idea of Videl and Gohan going on adventure. I can just imagine exploring places together on exciting places.

[Koitsukai]

But Videl did dare to step off her place, in the sense that she was a weakling fighting a juggernaut enhanced by an evil wizard to awaken Majin Buu. Even after Goku and Gohan advised her to back off, she kept going, she literally DARED TO STEP OFF HER PLACE even if she didn't know it. Just like her father stepped off his place against Cell and got what he had coming.

It's not a matter of gender, it's a matter of a weak ass race tangling with actual threats out of their league.

Nothing is written in a vacuum. Toriyama specifically chose to use Videl for this role. If he has a kink for violence against woman I won't shame him for it but contextually it makes no sense to suddenly switch to this hyper-violent slaughter of a young girl character introduced as the 'lead' character's new deurtagonist in a magazine aimed at young, still-developing children (mostly 'boys') from a company run exclusively by what are most likely cishet-passing men. This being a company that exclusively does not consult the voice of women and minorities in its depictions of them even today.

A man writing and drawing a fight like that is entirely different from a woman writing and drawing a fight like that because woman actually do undergo physical and emotional abuse like that from men.


Anyway, gimme Indiana Jones Videl and Gohan going on adventures and then playing house couple on the side to break up the action.

I won't argue with that because I agree with it and it was too gruesome, but that wasn't my point.
Somebody implied it was misogynist to point out that Videl was out of her depth because she's a girl, but it has nothing to do with Videl being a girl, it has to do with her being a regular human.
Her father wasn't a girl and he still got what he had coming for playing with the big wolves he had no business playing with.

[JulieYBM]

So Gohan a kid being beaten close to death by Reccoom in a life or death battle is ok, but Videl the teenage who was beaten really bad is wrong.

Why does it matter if it is a male or female that gets beaten up, if they choose to fight then that isn’t forced.

Gohan didn’t have the choice to back down, if he did he would get killed, so his only option was fight for survival. Gohan almost died in that battle.

Videl on the other hand she had the option to give up the fight whenever she wanted, but she chose to fight. She was beaten up really bad but not to the point of almost dying.

I actually don't think showing a kid getting his neck broken is appropriate for a kids comic. If I'm writing a story for adults, then sure, I'd probably do something like that without batting too many eyes, but that's a separate conversation.

Anyway, vacuums: we do not live in them. Cis men systemically control the lives of women, so the manner in which women are portrayed in mainstream media is important because media influences norms and mores.

Signed,
A bisexual trans woman who grew up fearing herself because of how normalized portraying trans women as ugly, serial killing psychopathic 'men in dresses'

[jjgp1112]

Goku and Vegeta got super tortured by Piccolo and Frieza respectively, five-year old Gohan got his neck snapped and had a viscerally realistic reaction to it, and Vegeta got his spinal cord turned into a churro in a San Antonio woman's hands by Cell; you can't tell me Videl's beatdown was worse than those.

[JulieYBM]

But Videl did dare to step off her place, in the sense that she was a weakling fighting a juggernaut enhanced by an evil wizard to awaken Majin Buu. Even after Goku and Gohan advised her to back off, she kept going, she literally DARED TO STEP OFF HER PLACE even if she didn't know it. Just like her father stepped off his place against Cell and got what he had coming.

It's not a matter of gender, it's a matter of a weak ass race tangling with actual threats out of their league.

Nothing is written in a vacuum. Toriyama specifically chose to use Videl for this role. If he has a kink for violence against woman I won't shame him for it but contextually it makes no sense to suddenly switch to this hyper-violent slaughter of a young girl character introduced as the 'lead' character's new deurtagonist in a magazine aimed at young, still-developing children mostly 'boys') from a company run exclusively by what are most likely cishet-passing men. This being a company that exclusively does not consult the voice of women and minorities in its depictions of them even today.

A man writing and drawing a fight like that is entirely different from a woman writing and drawing a fight like that because woman actually do undergo physical and emotional abuse like that from men.


Anyway, gimme Indiana Jones Videl and Gohan going on adventures and then playing house couple on the side to break up the action.

I won't argue with that because I agree with it and it was too gruesome, but that wasn't my point.
Somebody implied it was misogynist to point out that Videl was out of her depth because she's a girl, but it has nothing to do with Videl being a girl, it has to do with her being a regular human.
Her father wasn't a girl and he still got what he had coming for playing with the big wolves he had no business playing with.

Mr. Satan is a gag character in a gag scene. Videl's scene wasn't a gag-scene. Furthermore, again, you're trying to justify a real world choice with the inconsistent logic of a fictional world. That ignores the entire point of contention.

[ankokudaishogun]

Videl got beaten to show Babidi's emissaries were utter bastards, by having them beat down the weakest of the characters

It wasn't because she was a woman, but because she was weak.

[JulieYBM]

Videl got beaten to show Babidi's emissaries were utter bastards, by having them beat down the weakest of the characters

It wasn't because she was a woman, but because she was weak.

Why is the female deurtagonist of the story in a comic aimed at 'boys', produced, edited and published solely by men being deigned 'weak', needing to be violently and starkly realistically beaten within an inch of her life by a man with no real scratches on his body or psyche when that role could be fulfilled by a man like nearly every other role in the series is?

I'm not against women being a part of violent scenes in fiction but We. Must. Consider. The. Context. Of. Production. And. Publication.

Toriyama likes to write about the victimization of women in large part because he doesn't even consider them real people. Just look at how he speaks of writing women his interviews. He acts lile he's never spoken to a woman before and that's despite being married of all things.

[BWri]

Sure she was weaker than pre-21Tenkaichi Goku. He started as massively superhuman even compared to most martial artists.
Before learning Ki, she might have been at best about as strong as Bandit Yamcha.

Sounds about right. If an ordinary farmer is a 5 and Goku is a 10, I'd put Satan a peak human at a 6/7 and Yamcha at an 8. I don't think she's any weaker than Yamcha. Learning Ki probably boosted her up a lot as Bukujutsu is not an easy technique to learn. I think she would have been competitive in the 21st Budokai, better than Yamcha ... maybe even Krillin ... though not likely. So 4th strongest in the 21st TB era.

If she kept training, she'd be a beast. Her potential might even be higher than the other Earthlings.

[MyVisionity]

Goku and Vegeta got super tortured by Piccolo and Frieza respectively, five-year old Gohan got his neck snapped and had a viscerally realistic reaction to it, and Vegeta got his spinal cord turned into a churro in a San Antonio woman's hands by Cell; you can't tell me Videl's beatdown was worse than those.

Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are men. Videl is a woman.

It's not about who's beatdown was worse. It's about what it means to have a female character brutally beaten by a male character and then become "humbled" into quitting fighting, losing a good chunk of personality, and eventually becoming a housewife.

It's very much an issue of gender as much as it is anything else, if not more.

[The Monkey King]

As a human introduced in the BUU SAGA there was literally zero chance she'd be a relevant fighter

But I do really hate just how boring she became, like damn showing a couple scenes of her at least hitting a punching bag to stay sharp or sparing with Pan would go a long way.

Honestly Toei's depiction of Videl becoming the Great Saiyaman 2 in Wrath of the Dragon was a great continuation of her character.

[ABED]

Goku and Vegeta got super tortured by Piccolo and Frieza respectively, five-year old Gohan got his neck snapped and had a viscerally realistic reaction to it, and Vegeta got his spinal cord turned into a churro in a San Antonio woman's hands by Cell; you can't tell me Videl's beatdown was worse than those.

Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are men. Videl is a woman.

It's not about who's beatdown was worse. It's about what it means to have a female character brutally beaten by a male character and then become "humbled" into quitting fighting, losing a good chunk of personality, and eventually becoming a housewife.

It's very much an issue of gender as much as it is anything else, if not more.

It's absolutely whose beatdown was worse. would it have mattered had it been a female character who did it to her? Her entire personality prior to the tournament was her being suspicious of Gohan and kinda angry at him but the second they admit feelings, why would she continue to act that way? What personality did she lose?