It’s literally such a SHAME how LAME and WASTED Videl became.

[jjgp1112]

I don't think her personality is the issue. She's a lot more subdued but that fits in with the dynamic with other women. The issue is a lack of fighting, not the presence of...not obsessing over what an idiot her dad is or how "That Gohan-kun sure is sus!" Personally, telling off Chi-Chi and Barry in Super are two of her best moments. Certainly better than seeing her brutalized by Spopovitch.

I still wish that she had taken Gohan's place in the Tournament of Power and fought alongside Gokuu and Piccolo. That would have been a lot more fun to see.

....I'm sorry, what?

[JulieYBM]

I don't think her personality is the issue. She's a lot more subdued but that fits in with the dynamic with other women. The issue is a lack of fighting, not the presence of...not obsessing over what an idiot her dad is or how "That Gohan-kun sure is sus!" Personally, telling off Chi-Chi and Barry in Super are two of her best moments. Certainly better than seeing her brutalized by Spopovitch.

I still wish that she had taken Gohan's place in the Tournament of Power and fought alongside Gokuu and Piccolo. That would have been a lot more fun to see.

....I'm sorry, what?

Early Videl isn't the bastion of feminism that male critics make her out to be. Super Videl's problem is that she doesn't factor into the plot, have a character arc or have varied character interactions, not that she's not combative all the time.

Toriyama's problems with writing women are as bad as his problems with writing men and it's pretty annoying. I've honestly never seen Videl as being well-written because her storylines all revolve around men, whether it's Gohan or her dad. Then with the focus split off from Gohan Toriyama suddenly has nothing to do with her so the forced combativeness goes away.

[jjgp1112]

I don't think her personality is the issue. She's a lot more subdued but that fits in with the dynamic with other women. The issue is a lack of fighting, not the presence of...not obsessing over what an idiot her dad is or how "That Gohan-kun sure is sus!" Personally, telling off Chi-Chi and Barry in Super are two of her best moments. Certainly better than seeing her brutalized by Spopovitch.

I still wish that she had taken Gohan's place in the Tournament of Power and fought alongside Gokuu and Piccolo. That would have been a lot more fun to see.

....I'm sorry, what?

Early Videl isn't the bastion of feminism that male critics make her out to be. Super Videl's problem is that she doesn't factor into the plot, have a character arc or have varied character interactions, not that she's not combative all the time.

Toriyama's problems with writing women are as bad as his problems with writing men and it's pretty annoying. I've honestly never seen Videl as being well-written because her storylines all revolve around men, whether it's Gohan or her dad. Then with the focus split off from Gohan Toriyama suddenly has nothing to do with her so the forced combativeness goes away.

I supposed I should've isolated the bit about fighting in the ToP

[JulieYBM]

....I'm sorry, what?

Early Videl isn't the bastion of feminism that male critics make her out to be. Super Videl's problem is that she doesn't factor into the plot, have a character arc or have varied character interactions, not that she's not combative all the time.

Toriyama's problems with writing women are as bad as his problems with writing men and it's pretty annoying. I've honestly never seen Videl as being well-written because her storylines all revolve around men, whether it's Gohan or her dad. Then with the focus split off from Gohan Toriyama suddenly has nothing to do with her so the forced combativeness goes away.

I supposed I should've isolated the bit about fighting in the ToP

Oh, that? Yeah. Why not? It'd really like to see how she interacts with characters, especially Gokuu, but also it'd give her a chance to develop rivals and goals. Also, I just think it would be hilarious to see her switching between mama mode and cool mode.

[PurestEvil]

Early Videl isn't the bastion of feminism that male critics make her out to be. Super Videl's problem is that she doesn't factor into the plot, have a character arc or have varied character interactions, not that she's not combative all the time.

Toriyama's problems with writing women are as bad as his problems with writing men and it's pretty annoying. I've honestly never seen Videl as being well-written because her storylines all revolve around men, whether it's Gohan or her dad. Then with the focus split off from Gohan Toriyama suddenly has nothing to do with her so the forced combativeness goes away.

I supposed I should've isolated the bit about fighting in the ToP

Oh, that? Yeah. Why not? It'd really like to see how she interacts with characters, especially Gokuu, but also it'd give her a chance to develop rivals and goals. Also, I just think it would be hilarious to see her switching between mama mode and cool mode.

Why would anyone in the Z team want to bring Videl, one of the weakest fighters in that circle, into a tournament where the whole existence of their universe is at risk instead of Gohan, THE THIRD STRONGEST ONE?
I know the ToP isn't exactly regarded for having the best logistics and consistencies, but damn...

[JulieYBM]

I supposed I should've isolated the bit about fighting in the ToP

Oh, that? Yeah. Why not? It'd really like to see how she interacts with characters, especially Gokuu, but also it'd give her a chance to develop rivals and goals. Also, I just think it would be hilarious to see her switching between mama mode and cool mode.

Why would anyone in the Z team want to bring Videl, one of the weakest fighters in that circle, into a tournament where the whole existence of their universe is at risk instead of Gohan, THE THIRD STRONGEST ONE?
I know the ToP isn't exactly regarded for having the best logistics and consistencies, but damn...

Dragon Ball is the most arbitrary thing ever. Saiyans are arbitrary strong, so why not make Videl arbitrarily strong? Say she never stopped training and that it's Gohan's turn to watch Pan.

Fuck, if I have to put up with fucking Tenshinhan amd his brown paper bag personality for every fucking story arc then at least throw in someone different for once. Actually, replace Tenshinhan with Chi-Chi, too.

[jjgp1112]

Dragon Ball has a lot of arbitrary things but it at least keeps some internal consistency and brings some logic to their arbitrary power ups. We see characters earn their power, whether the humans through hard work, or the Saiyans being born to a freakishly strong alien race.

Even by the Android saga, the Saiyans and Piccolo had surpassed the humans so much that some teenage human brat that's the daughter of a man who doesn't even believe in Ki just showing up as strong as the Super Saiyans and also displacing the humans that we've already seen struggling would have been an actual Mary Sue.

And let's be real: the presence Krillin, Tien, and Roshi are nostalgia plays for early Dragon Ball/Z and throwing old characters a bone they've been deprived of since Frieza showed up, really. Nobody's really clamoring to see characters who have never contributed anything suddenly in the fray.

[Jiren The Alpha]

Shame, lame, wasted... You could say that about every character that is not Goku or Vegeta. But I agree. I didn't like her at first (at my first ever encounter with her as a kid) but she did grow on me. What Super did was even worse than what GT did. But it was bad here and there (except design, GT Videl is awesome, S Videl is... meh).
Well, she's wasted. She is no longer a character. She's just a background for Gohan and Pan (and they are background for other characters, so...).

[Android 17: Won the tournement and was helping in a lot of fights.

Android 18: Eliminated Ribrianne and saved Android 17.

Krillin: Beat Gohan, saved Android 18 and Eliminated 2 fightes from universe 4.

Gohan: Helped eliminate Dyspo (a dangerous fighter in the tournement with his speed) and the universe 6 namekians.

Roshi: Eliminated 3 fighters from universe 4 (one of them was someone who could get strong enough to challenge Goku and Vegeta if he did not get eliminated right away) and saved Vegeta from elimination.

Piccolo: Helps eliminate the universe 6 namekians and a fighter from universe 10 and 4.

Tien: Eliminating a sniper that could be dangerous in the TOP.

Frieza: Helps eliminate Jiren and saved Goku from elimination.

Future Trunks: Was fighting Goku Black and Zamasu with Goku and beat Merged Zamasu.

Majin buu: Beating Basil and Goku in a sparring match.

By the way, does anyone know were i can watch the Goku and Vegeta show? I can't seem to find it anywhere

[PurestEvil]

Dragon Ball is the most arbitrary thing ever. Saiyans are arbitrary strong, so why not make Videl arbitrarily strong? Say she never stopped training and that it's Gohan's turn to watch Pan.

Fam, just because something is arbitrary does not mean it cannot be consistent or logical. And just because consistencies and logic has been disregarded at some points in Dragon Ball for the sake of fans service does not mean it should be applied more often. I mean, what you are basically proposing is for Videl to get the Roshi-asspull treatment.
Ultimately, yes, I find that Videl had been treated less than optimally in DBS, but so have all the other human characters. But you know what, I would rather take a well written "Goku and Vegeta" show than a nonsensical fan-servicey hot mess involving the human fighters.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball is the most arbitrary thing ever. Saiyans are arbitrary strong, so why not make Videl arbitrarily strong? Say she never stopped training and that it's Gohan's turn to watch Pan.

Fam, just because something is arbitrary does not mean it cannot be consistent or logical. And just because consistencies and logic has been disregarded at some points in Dragon Ball for the sake of fans service does not mean it should be applied more often. I mean, what you are basically proposing is for Videl to get the Roshi-asspull treatment.
Ultimately, yes, I find that Videl had been treated less than optimally in DBS, but so have all the other human characters. But you know what, I would rather take a well written "Goku and Vegeta" show than a nonsensical fan-servicey hot mess involving the human fighters.

It was a conscientious to make Videl weak and not involved in fights in the first place. There's really no reason--other than continuing to buy into misogynistic practices--to not arbitrarily ignore those past decisions. What's the worst that can happen, Dragon Ball gets passed up for a Emmy? Your dad calls you a faggot?

[super michael]

I don't think her personality is the issue. She's a lot more subdued but that fits in with the dynamic with other women. The issue is a lack of fighting, not the presence of...not obsessing over what an idiot her dad is or how "That Gohan-kun sure is sus!" Personally, telling off Chi-Chi and Barry in Super are two of her best moments. Certainly better than seeing her brutalized by Spopovitch.

I still wish that she had taken Gohan's place in the Tournament of Power and fought alongside Gokuu and Piccolo. That would have been a lot more fun to see.

Gohan is one of the top fighters in Universe 7, so it wouldn't make sense to exclude Gohan. Maybe have Videl take Krillin spot since he doesn't train. Although Goten and Trunks are more skillful and way stronger than Videl, so Goten and Trunks deserve that spot better than Videl.

In RoF it never made sense why C18 who is many times stronger than Krillin stayed behind to take care of Marron, while Krillin who is many times weaker went to the battle field. That was the worst writing of all time to be honest.

[jjgp1112]

Dragon Ball is the most arbitrary thing ever. Saiyans are arbitrary strong, so why not make Videl arbitrarily strong? Say she never stopped training and that it's Gohan's turn to watch Pan.

Fam, just because something is arbitrary does not mean it cannot be consistent or logical. And just because consistencies and logic has been disregarded at some points in Dragon Ball for the sake of fans service does not mean it should be applied more often. I mean, what you are basically proposing is for Videl to get the Roshi-asspull treatment.
Ultimately, yes, I find that Videl had been treated less than optimally in DBS, but so have all the other human characters. But you know what, I would rather take a well written "Goku and Vegeta" show than a nonsensical fan-servicey hot mess involving the human fighters.

It was a conscientious to make Videl weak and not involved in fights in the first place. There's really no reason--other than continuing to buy into misogynistic practices--to not arbitrarily ignore those past decisions. What's the worst that can happen, Dragon Ball gets passed up for a Emmy? Your dad calls you a faggot?

Wanting to stay consistent with an established narrative isn't misogynistic.

I dunno, I like things to make some sense before anything. A character that couldn't have even hung in the 21st Martial Arts Tournament and never had much strength-based relevance in her "prime" to begin with is just a terrible narrative choice for anything like the Tournament of Power, especially if she's used in lieu of well-established players, and ESPECIALLY Gohan.

[PurestEvil]

It was a conscientious to make Videl weak and not involved in fights in the first place. There's really no reason--other than continuing to buy into misogynistic practices--to not arbitrarily ignore those past decisions. What's the worst that can happen, Dragon Ball gets passed up for a Emmy? Your dad calls you a faggot?

I was not arguing against making Videl relevant. I agree that having Videl actually have a substantial role in the story and "coming back" would be beneficial. However, it still needs to be executed well, not just some offscreen "she was secretly training and now she can beat Android 18" rubbish. This is what I meant by arguing against her being in the TOP.

[It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips]

Dragon Ball is the most arbitrary thing ever. Saiyans are arbitrary strong, so why not make Videl arbitrarily strong? Say she never stopped training and that it's Gohan's turn to watch Pan.

Fam, just because something is arbitrary does not mean it cannot be consistent or logical. And just because consistencies and logic has been disregarded at some points in Dragon Ball for the sake of fans service does not mean it should be applied more often. I mean, what you are basically proposing is for Videl to get the Roshi-asspull treatment.
Ultimately, yes, I find that Videl had been treated less than optimally in DBS, but so have all the other human characters. But you know what, I would rather take a well written "Goku and Vegeta" show than a nonsensical fan-servicey hot mess involving the human fighters.

We're not getting a well written "Goku and Vegeta" show either so we might as well get a fan-servicey hot mess involving the human fighters. It's already pretty god damn stupid that the series takes place on Earth and yet every fighter actually from Earth is a joke.

This is Dragon Ball, anime pro wrestling. Fan service and spectacle is about all it can really trade on right now.

EDIT: To lay my cards completely on the table, I don't really care whether Videl gets a super secret off screen power up. It's more that, after Freeza catching up to SSG within a few months and Roshi coming back in the ToP, I feel like the series can pretty much come up with whatever at this point. What's it going to hurt? The internal consistency of a series that hasn't had any since the late 80s?

[super michael]

The story has to make sense how a character got really strong, that is why DBS Anime is really bad since C17 got as strong as Super Saiyan Blue without doing anything. Krillin was able to give Goku trouble, even though Krillin did weak training. Freeza by beating a weakling he got to Super Saiyan Blue Tier in 4 months.

If Videl got to Super Saiyan Blue Tier by secret training or weak training that would have been awful.

[jjgp1112]

Android 17 and Frieza already had a natural baseline of power that put their potential training gains into an absurd stratosphere.

Look at where Goku is now and where he started. The Androids and Frieza already started stronger than 90% of the universe.

If Frieza had Goku and Vegeta's work ethic he would rule the entire omniverse.

[PurestEvil]

We're not getting a well written "Goku and Vegeta" show either so we might as well get a fan-servicey hot mess involving the human fighters.

I never said that the current storyline was actually good. I was specifically talking in hypotheticals to make the point that a well written story should have a priority over character inclusion. Obviously, fan-service is not inherently bad, but it is executed badly too often.

It's already pretty god damn stupid that the series takes place on Earth and yet every fighter actually from Earth is a joke.

Not since Moro appeared.

This is Dragon Ball, anime pro wrestling. Fan service and spectacle is about all it can really trade on right now.

At the very fucking least they can write a story that is above average.

[JulieYBM]

Ignoring the misogyny behind Videl just...not being allowed to fight would be better writing, so they should go with that.

Saiyans get magical power ups because they're male characters and the plot calls for it. It's godfuckingawful so while we're goofing off and not making Serious Thespian Art we might as well dick around and let Videl and Chi-Chi fight.

While we're at it, Yamcha being a joke is boring. Lets give him a cool Shida Naotoshi fight scene.

[jjgp1112]

Videl and Chi-Chi are damaged goods. Who really cares about them as fighting characters at this stage?

[super michael]

Ignoring the misogyny behind Videl just...not being allowed to fight would be better writing, so they should go with that.

Saiyans get magical power ups because they're male characters and the plot calls for it. It's godfuckingawful so while we're goofing off and not making Serious Thespian Art we might as well dick around and let Videl and Chi-Chi fight.

While we're at it, Yamcha being a joke is boring. Lets give him a cool Shida Naotoshi fight scene.

Caulifla, Kale and Kefla are Saiyans who are super strong. They gained Super Saiyan 1, Super Saiyan 2 and Legendary Super Saiyan in a short time span, even though they didn't know those transformations existed.

Lets not forget that Universe 7 has female Saiyans now since there Pan and Bra. Right now they are babies but I am sure they will grow up to be strong, we know Pan likes to train and fight due to her scene in EOZ.

As for Chi Chi she was personally training Goten, meaning that she herself started to train. Too bad that was dropped in DBS.