In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

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In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by CaJae10 » Tue May 04, 2021 9:27 pm

The DB World lost the Wuxia feel after the arc, the world feels ordinary/mundane now. It turned ordinary feats like ki blasts into oddities for the populace. The animal people and giant fantasy creatures are gone too.

Martial artists seem to be rare after the Piccolo Daimao arc well I'm not saying that doesn't make sense; it actually makes sense considering people would go into hiding from being scared of another Piccolo. Martial artist feats portrayed in the tournament and RRA arc were considered normal by society for example, General Blue see's Goku and Krillin fight the Pirate Robot and he's astonished that kids could do something like that; then it clicks in his head that they're martial artist so them doing stuff like that is normal.

Ordinary ki beams like the Kamehameha seems to be popular or known enough for the Tournament Announcer to be surprised by it, it's popular enough between fighter but no one uses it because its hard to master, so the announcer is surprised when he see's Goku and Jackie Chun do it. In the Cell arc this completely changes a cynical world view is taken by Toriyama where people forget that normal martial artist feats and they're oddities (like I said in the beginning), society regresses and they believe Mr. Satan/Hercule when they clearly see these feats during the Cell Games fight. Humans become more dumbed down like in Invader Zim, where they are gullible enough to believe his lies even though they just saw a SSJ Goku and Cell who can destroy planets, duking it out.

I won't hate Hercule/Mr. Satan for not knowing these feats (since the characters that could do this stuff have grown out of tournaments and don't really like being in public like that) but he still lies to save face, in the end he does eventually find out that it's real and I don't hate him for trying to save his career. But it seems martial arts in the DB world is kinda of dying out when the tournaments have become more commercial which are keeping those who like it for the sport and it being a spiritual only in "3 years" or in "once every year" type of thing.

This simply comes down to that Toriyama forgot which explains everything.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by CaJae10 » Tue May 04, 2021 9:40 pm

Post-writing this, ki blasts arent normal and only appeared in Piccolo arc. Rohsi was a famous martial artists so it explains why the Kamehameha was well-known. I mean there really isn't any reason to focus on Earth anymore since the characters are too strong and Goku has already basically explored the world. Once again ki blasts aren't normal and if you aren't a well trained fighter then you can't use them.

By the 21st tournament; Goku and Krillin were basically the strongest at that point since Roshi trained them. Nobody could come close but only could give them a good fight; Roshi himself joined it so they wouldn't just stomp the whole thing. Only other rival martial artist schools could take them on. The only ki blast that was seen is the KHH, Goku copying the KHH like that would be a astounding feat for it's time.

Oh Oolong and Puar are still here so I wouldn't say all the animal people are gone. The king of the world is irrelevant since he isn't connected to the main characters anymore nor he is he needed for the story anymore.

This is all I wanted to say correct me if wrong or argue against my points.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed May 05, 2021 8:43 am

Ki blast were never ordinary feats...

The main characters are still all martial artist.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed May 05, 2021 9:47 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:43 am Ki blast were never ordinary feats...

The main characters are still all martial artist.
Yeah...

The extraordinary fighters from the old tournaments just stop showing up due to being scared of Goku and co along with the commercialization of the Tenkaichi Budokai.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed May 05, 2021 10:06 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 9:47 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:43 am Ki blast were never ordinary feats...

The main characters are still all martial artist.
Yeah...

The extraordinary fighters from the old tournaments just stop showing up due to being scared of Goku and co along with the commercialization of the Tenkaichi Budokai.
They had vendors set up everywhere and sold official keychains and t-shirts.

At the 22nd a boxer turned movie star was a quarterfinalist.

It was always commercialized. This whole fandom misconception that the Tenkaichi Tournament was some underground thing until Mr.Satan made it popular seems to be fans trying to justify why the general populace is too stupid to remember Goku won a tournament and finished 2nd in two others and was famous for ending Piccolo Daimao’s reign of terror.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Wed May 05, 2021 10:17 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:06 am
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 9:47 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 8:43 am Ki blast were never ordinary feats...

The main characters are still all martial artist.
Yeah...

The extraordinary fighters from the old tournaments just stop showing up due to being scared of Goku and co along with the commercialization of the Tenkaichi Budokai.
They had vendors set up everywhere and sold official keychains and t-shirts.

At the 22nd a boxer turned movie star was a quarterfinalist.

It was always commercialized. This whole fandom misconception that the Tenkaichi Tournament was some underground thing until Mr.Satan made it popular seems to be fans trying to justify why the general populace is too stupid to remember Goku won a tournament and finished 2nd in two others and was famous for ending Piccolo Daimao’s reign of terror.
Having vendor and selling merch doesn't prove the Tenkaichi Budokai was mainstream. They weren't broadcasted like the newer tournaments and the stadium was nowhere near as big.

Also Goku wasn't famous for defeating Piccolo Daimao. Hardly anyone witnessed the battle and you know Goku wouldn't put his name out there like that.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed May 05, 2021 10:21 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:17 am
Having vendor and selling merch doesn't prove the Tenkaichi Budokai was mainstream.
You’re right having all these vendors and merchandise being set up because of the expectation that enough people will go for them to profit doesn’t prove anything.

And we definitely did not see normies and groupies and families attending the tournament.

Also Goku wasn't famous for defeating Piccolo Daimao. Hardly anyone witnessed the battle and you know Goku wouldn't put his name out there like that.
They literally had reporters going to Kame House to interview Goku...

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed May 05, 2021 10:25 am

I think there was a clear change of the scene though. The original tournaments weren't exactly underground fight clubs but the Tenkaichi didn't exactly seem mainstream either, it seemed to mainly appeal to a niche audience of martial arts enthusiasts. The entire event was hosted on a little island with a tiny arena and only a small audience in attendance (there aren't even any elevated seats so if you're stuck at the back of the crowd, you won't see shit). Contrast this against the 25th Budokai where suddenly the arena is upgraded into a fullblown stadium with seats and camera crews everywhere. The Z-Warriors seem disappointed by how much more commercialised it became.

They may have had a few vendors, a bit of merch and a couple of high-profile competitors but it wasn't necessarily a huge mainstream thing. The local zoo can just as easily have all of those.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed May 05, 2021 10:32 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:25 am, it seemed to mainly appeal to a niche audience of martial arts enthusiasts.
And again we saw completely normal people who didn’t seem to know shit about martial arts attending. Like the groupies at the 22nd or Shen, the guy Kami possessed, who just seemed like some middle aged poindexter taking his son.

Did Mr.Satan make it even bigger than it already was and possibly revived the sport ? (I mean assuming he just recently won before the Cell Games there was 10 years between tournaments) Absolutely. Was it already a somewhat commercialized event? Yes.


ETA: There’s also the fact that Mr.Satan was already treated as a big deal simply for winning ONE single tournament. Part of that is probably just him being ambitious to capitalize off of his victory but I think ots fair to say he wouldn’t have been able to get all that attention if the Tenkaichi Tournament wasn’t already commercialized....and then when he allegedly saved the world from Cell it both boosted his fame as well as the popularity of the tournament
Last edited by MasenkoHA on Wed May 05, 2021 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed May 05, 2021 10:42 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:32 am
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 10:25 am, it seemed to mainly appeal to a niche audience of martial arts enthusiasts.
And again we saw completely normal people who didn’t seem to know shit about martial arts attending. Like the groupies at the 22nd or Shen, the guy Kami possessed, who just seemed like some middle aged poindexter taking his son.

Did Mr.Satan make it even bigger than it already was and possibly revived the sport ? (I mean assuming he just recently won before the Cell Games there was 10 years between tournaments) Absolutely. Was it already a somewhat commercialized event? Yes.
They were probably just locals from Papaya Island. If there's a biggish sporting event or festival going on, some normies are bound to attend, but a bit of commercialisation doesn't make something super mainstream. Like I said, any establishment can print off t-shirts and stuff. Do you know the results of everything that goes down in every single sporting event in the world? Probably not.

Obviously the Tenkaichi was always considered prestigious and important but we only saw it from the perspectives of our protagonists and other martial artists. In the manga at least, I don't think there was a clear sense that it was this massive mainstream phenomena. Like after the 22nd, as soon as the tournament ends, all the spectators just bugger off with their lives. There's no big press conference or major celebration (there is a bit more of this in the anime at least).

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by Yuji » Wed May 05, 2021 12:23 pm

In-universe it's been decades since Goku was a kid. It's entirely possible that the ethos of the Dragon World changed since then. There are Holocaust deniers and 9/11 truthers right now. Now imagine a world where those beliefs became the norm.

@MasenkoHA Pretty sure the reporter scene was anime-only.

Also, yes, the TB after Mr. Satan is the world cup whereas the TB before him is like the national football cup of Singapore or something. Which event do you think more people are knowledgeable about?

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by WittyUsername » Wed May 05, 2021 4:17 pm

I never got the impression that the Tenkaichi Budokai was some underground thing that only martial arts enthusiasts were aware of. I also don’t understand how the world could just more or less forget about Piccolo Daimao’s televised reign of terror. The Dragon Ball world as a whole definitely starts to feel more mundane by the time we meet characters like Mr. Satan. I’m also not a fan of how the animal characters got phased out overtime, but I imagine that was done to highlight the contrast between Dragon Ball’s Earth and the characters from other planets.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by Kunzait_83 » Thu May 06, 2021 10:59 am

Just to throw this out there: whether or not mystical Ki/Chi techniques is commonly known to the broader populace is a story element that varies HEAVILY from one Wuxia story to the next. Some Wuxia stories have it so that every common rando knows that martial artists are capable of superhuman feats like flying, Ki blasts, etc. while some have such things be these deeply hidden secrets known only to the most devoted and hardcore practitioners of the fighting arts: in the latter case, they might be rumored or urban legends in certain corners of the world, but generally speaking are not widely accepted as a real thing by the broader populace.

Again, throughout the genre's entire history, Wuxia has taken BOTH of these approaches numerous, numerous times, and its basically down to the author's preference/choice as to the extent of what the general populace of the story's basic working knowledge of mystical Ki/Chi techniques might be.

Picking from one approach or the other does nothing whatsoever to "dilute" the Wuxia-ness of a given story, as both types are more or less equally prevalent throughout the genre's whole history.

Another interesting wrinkle to this that a lot of Wuxia stories set in modern or futuristic settings have used is the idea that mystical Chi martial arts techniques WERE at one time centuries/millennia ago in ancient times much more commonly known, but as times modernized the broader populace "forgot" about them, or relegate them as fairly tales that were never actually real.

Again though, this story element varies WILDLY throughout the whole entire genre, and just about every shade or variance of this has been used at one time or another across countless Wuxia movies/books/comics/video games/plays/etc. for almost the genre's entire centuries' long history.
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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu May 06, 2021 11:21 am

WittyUsername wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:17 pm I never got the impression that the Tenkaichi Budokai was some underground thing that only martial arts enthusiasts were aware of.
It wasn't exactly underground but it wasn't a commercialized event that is globally recognized like it became after its revival.

Also people probably blocked it out of their memory plus it's been years since it happened so it's not relevant to recent memory.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by WittyUsername » Thu May 06, 2021 1:09 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:21 am
WittyUsername wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:17 pm I never got the impression that the Tenkaichi Budokai was some underground thing that only martial arts enthusiasts were aware of.
It wasn't exactly underground but it wasn't a commercialized event that is globally recognized like it became after its revival.

Also people probably blocked it out of their memory plus it's been years since it happened so it's not relevant to recent memory.
That still doesn’t explain how people would just forget about Piccolo Daimao after less than 20 years.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu May 06, 2021 3:56 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 1:09 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 11:21 am
WittyUsername wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 4:17 pm I never got the impression that the Tenkaichi Budokai was some underground thing that only martial arts enthusiasts were aware of.
It wasn't exactly underground but it wasn't a commercialized event that is globally recognized like it became after its revival.

Also people probably blocked it out of their memory plus it's been years since it happened so it's not relevant to recent memory.
That still doesn’t explain how people would just forget about Piccolo Daimao after less than 20 years.
The second paragraph of my post does..
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by TrunksTrevelyan0064 » Thu May 06, 2021 4:47 pm

People forgot about Daimao because he only reigned for a couple of hours (not counting his previous reign during Mutaito's era).

Imagine if this happened. Crazy dude comes on TV saying he's the king now and that he's going to destroy everyone. Very scary, except that a mere few hours later, it is announced that the crazy dude was killed... by a child.

You would think "Why was I so scared of that guy?" and forget it ever happened. The whole thing would feel like some weird prank.
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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu May 06, 2021 5:33 pm

TrunksTrevelyan0064 wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 4:47 pm People forgot about Daimao because he only reigned for a couple of hours (not counting his previous reign during Mutaito's era).

Imagine if this happened. Crazy dude comes on TV saying he's the king now and that he's going to destroy everyone. Very scary, except that a mere few hours later, it is announced that the crazy dude was killed... by a child.

You would think "Why was I so scared of that guy?" and forget it ever happened. The whole thing would feel like some weird prank.

People at the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament fled when they realized Junior was a reincarnated Daimao so...no?

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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by ABED » Thu May 06, 2021 6:24 pm

The dude destroyed an entire city. They'd remember that guy.
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Re: In my opinion, after the Saiyan Arc...

Post by WittyUsername » Thu May 06, 2021 8:54 pm

9/11 lasted less than a day. Everyone still remembers that. The idea that people would just “block out” that time a demon briefly took over the world and destroyed an entire city is absurd. I know Dragon Ball is a fantasy world, but that just seems like lazy writing.

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