Not sure what your point is, but okay.Anonymous Friend wrote: ↑Wed May 26, 2021 5:44 pmCasuals are the ones who bring the bank. Nerds are the ones keeping it alive. Street Fighter 5 launched with one single player mode, Survival, and look at the flack it got for it. Heck, MvCI had some of the best gameplay in a fighting game but failed due to roster choices and character designs.ABED wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 8:21 pmThe stories are a selling point but if it were the most important aspect, why make it a video game, especially a side scroll fighting game?Anonymous Friend wrote: ↑Mon May 24, 2021 5:52 pm
MK3 or 4 started getting serious with the story and lore.
Stories in general are very important to a lot of gamers. The storymodes in NRS games are some of the finest ones in fighting games and having been bringing in tons of players. There's plenty of money to be made when you announce your fighter have a big storymode.
The stories weren't what made MK a hit. It was already a hit by then.
And I'll say it loud again, screw lore. It's not a selling point. It's stupid, it's boring, and no one but nerds care.
Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
I believe he's trying to say that story mode (and single player content in general) help make the game seem more of a viable purchase to casual gamers.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
That and the fact that while gamers love to shout "gameplay<everything else", that's not the truth.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
Story is a selling point as human beings love stories, but gameplay is the most important thing in a video GAME otherwise it's not the right medium.Anonymous Friend wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 1:53 pmThat and the fact that while gamers love to shout "gameplay<everything else", that's not the truth.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
Case in point if the Legacy of Kain games had game play on par with its fantastic story telling, the series would've gone on much longer.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
You do actually play through the story mode via playing the fights. Its not like you are watching a two hour movie straight.
Anyways, I'm not saying story is the only thing that sells it, but let's look at the most helpful reviews of Mortal Kombat 11 that show up on Steam.
Anyways, I'm not saying story is the only thing that sells it, but let's look at the most helpful reviews of Mortal Kombat 11 that show up on Steam.
This game is fantastic. Great story. Fighting is awesome. The fatality and friendship are fantastic and brutal.
The storyline is way more catchy then the latest MK 2021 movie.
1) this game is great if you want to play solo it offers GREAT graphics , good story mode , and even a good casual experience fighting vs your friends and family 2)BUT , if you are a competitive player that love to challenge yourself and take your skills online , this is the worst game ever made . even after 1k hours you will lose vs the most random/scrubiest players online why ? because the game is cattering to casual players and filled with scrub tactics and mechanics.
This game was a blast to play. New players can pick it up. Vets can start where the left off. Learning combos is easy and special moves are simple to pull off. I loved the story and the DLC.
i got the game on switch and is one of the best mk on history
I excluded one's that were just blank or blatent trolling, but as you can see 4 out of 6 mentioned the story as part of their enjoyment. So it's definitely a factor.Friendship is the best! If they brought back "babality" also, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥! Game is great though!
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
Graphics, Gameplay and Story are the trifecta that is the gaming experience especially when they're all done exceptionally well.
That said people who are still playing MK11, Street Fighter 5 or Tekken 7 today, despite those games being more than 2 years old or more a piece are playing them because of the Gameplay, they're not running back to story mode over and over again.. Hell even for the older games, folks don't pop in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo or DOA 3 or whatever because of the story, it's the gameplay that keeps people coming back. Thats not to say story doesn't have its place and I know for a fact that fans of certain fighting game series' would love a story mode as interesting as Mortal Kombat's but the problem is that a lot of the Japanese developers don't seem to take their character's progression very seriously from a narrative stand point. For example, none of Tekken's legacy characters except for Jin have really evolved past their incarnations in Tekken 5. Granted we are talking about fighting games here where the gameplay and graphics play a much bigger factor in the game's overall success long term, so its probably a marketing strategy above all else, I mean if people love Paul Phoenix, you can't just write him out of the story and not expect huge back lash but if you keep him in every game, his personality wont grow much. Tekken 7 had shitty budget though.
I'm sure when it comes to RPGs/JRPGs, the story takes precedence since the game play is just turn based strategy.
That said people who are still playing MK11, Street Fighter 5 or Tekken 7 today, despite those games being more than 2 years old or more a piece are playing them because of the Gameplay, they're not running back to story mode over and over again.. Hell even for the older games, folks don't pop in Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo or DOA 3 or whatever because of the story, it's the gameplay that keeps people coming back. Thats not to say story doesn't have its place and I know for a fact that fans of certain fighting game series' would love a story mode as interesting as Mortal Kombat's but the problem is that a lot of the Japanese developers don't seem to take their character's progression very seriously from a narrative stand point. For example, none of Tekken's legacy characters except for Jin have really evolved past their incarnations in Tekken 5. Granted we are talking about fighting games here where the gameplay and graphics play a much bigger factor in the game's overall success long term, so its probably a marketing strategy above all else, I mean if people love Paul Phoenix, you can't just write him out of the story and not expect huge back lash but if you keep him in every game, his personality wont grow much. Tekken 7 had shitty budget though.
I'm sure when it comes to RPGs/JRPGs, the story takes precedence since the game play is just turn based strategy.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
Understood, and at no point did I say that story doesn't matter at all. That said, story was not as big of thing when video games were far less capable (for lack of a better word) than they are now.I excluded one's that were just blank or blatent trolling, but as you can see 4 out of 6 mentioned the story as part of their enjoyment. So it's definitely a factor.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
Seems like we're all on the same page now?
I agree that gameplay and presentations are factors. MK plays compontenly enough and the presentation is good. Love how NRS gives the series a face lift each game. Characters like Kitana and Mileena look very distinct from their MK9 -> MK11 designs. Where as DOA6 and Tekken 7 looks very similar to their predecessor at times.
Another thing I'd like to point out is MK has been really well positioned in the past 10 years. We've had 3 games all of which are direct sequels. In comparison Capcom has released SF, Tekken crossover, Marvel crossovers and updates. It can be overwhelming unless you're a hardcore follower of the series.
(For all intents and purposes Paul Phoenix was bascially written outside of the story anyways. He made it to the final of the first three games but was turned into a joke after 4).
I agree that gameplay and presentations are factors. MK plays compontenly enough and the presentation is good. Love how NRS gives the series a face lift each game. Characters like Kitana and Mileena look very distinct from their MK9 -> MK11 designs. Where as DOA6 and Tekken 7 looks very similar to their predecessor at times.
Another thing I'd like to point out is MK has been really well positioned in the past 10 years. We've had 3 games all of which are direct sequels. In comparison Capcom has released SF, Tekken crossover, Marvel crossovers and updates. It can be overwhelming unless you're a hardcore follower of the series.
(For all intents and purposes Paul Phoenix was bascially written outside of the story anyways. He made it to the final of the first three games but was turned into a joke after 4).
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
To bring it back fully on topic, I've never understood this whole "we must invent a new character for this adaptation so the audience will understand the story". I appreciate that someone wants to make sure the adaptation doesn't just speak to hardcore fans, but when theses properties were first created, they had to introduce the world to the audience. They were brand new properties/stories/games at some point. To keep this about DB, Toriyama made generous use of tropes, and he had Goku be naive to the world around him. Everything had to be explained to him, and thus the audience. Much like Cheers used Coach and Woody (i.e. the dumb characters) to help deliver exposition, Goku can serve that same function. There's no need to go outside the narrative to help deliver information about it.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
And that's why their made. It's a huge selling point. Selling to casuals with a great story, makes more money than selling to a hardcore who may play the game for four years straight. Story and characters are big. Some people choose their mains based off how cool they look.ABED wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 5:39 pmStory is a selling point as human beings love stories, but gameplay is the most important thing in a video GAME otherwise it's not the right medium.Anonymous Friend wrote: ↑Fri May 28, 2021 1:53 pmThat and the fact that while gamers love to shout "gameplay<everything else", that's not the truth.
Back to Insert characters, if you're adapted something that already exists, books or video game or whatnot, where the thing just begins and you might want many of the lore and story bits explained to a newcomer, you would use an insert character. Many, many movies and shows do it. You might just never noticed it. Rachel from Friends, Robin from HIMYM, the human in that Sonic movie, the protag from Tenet ... all newcomers who had to be introduced to the premise. Most things just use one or more characters from the story to do so. Original Inserts can be used if you don't want any of the "main" group to have to be That Guy.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
This is why I don't understand when people say they'd have to skip straight to Z to do a movie...like, do people realize every hit show started off as an unknown? The pervading presence of tentpole franchises and recycled media has warped people's minds. Like Kunzait said, people need to stop analyzing this shit like a Hollywood executive and just bet on a wider audience falling in love with the characters. Every movie is a [carefully calculated] gamble.ABED wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:26 pm To bring it back fully on topic, I've never understood this whole "we must invent a new character for this adaptation so the audience will understand the story". I appreciate that someone wants to make sure the adaptation doesn't just speak to hardcore fans, but when theses properties were first created, they had to introduce the world to the audience. They were brand new properties/stories/games at some point. To keep this about DB, Toriyama made generous use of tropes, and he had Goku be naive to the world around him. Everything had to be explained to him, and thus the audience. Much like Cheers used Coach and Woody (i.e. the dumb characters) to help deliver exposition, Goku can serve that same function. There's no need to go outside the narrative to help deliver information about it.
Remember guys, Ironman was a C-List character and back in the 90s, the Avengers were looked at as the Dork Squad compared to X-Men.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
I stopped frequenting Batman on Film because this ridiculously dumb POV was pervasive. "No, WB shouldn't adapt anyone but Batman and Superman because no one in the mainstream knows anyone but them. What? Adapt Aquaman? You fanboy." 1 Billion plus later and the proprietor hasn't learned the lesson.jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:23 pmThis is why I don't understand when people say they'd have to skip straight to Z to do a movie...like, do people realize every hit show started off as an unknown? The pervading presence of tentpole franchises and recycled media has warped people's minds. Like Kunzait said, people need to stop analyzing this shit like a Hollywood executive and just bet on a wider audience falling in love with the characters. Every movie is a [carefully calculated] gamble.ABED wrote: ↑Sun May 30, 2021 2:26 pm To bring it back fully on topic, I've never understood this whole "we must invent a new character for this adaptation so the audience will understand the story". I appreciate that someone wants to make sure the adaptation doesn't just speak to hardcore fans, but when theses properties were first created, they had to introduce the world to the audience. They were brand new properties/stories/games at some point. To keep this about DB, Toriyama made generous use of tropes, and he had Goku be naive to the world around him. Everything had to be explained to him, and thus the audience. Much like Cheers used Coach and Woody (i.e. the dumb characters) to help deliver exposition, Goku can serve that same function. There's no need to go outside the narrative to help deliver information about it.
Remember guys, Ironman was a C-List character and back in the 90s, the Avengers were looked at as the Dork Squad compared to X-Men.
This whole idea of stand in characters being created for adaptations underestimates the audience's ability to understand rather simple premises.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
For me Sonic having a brand new character worked because the original game only has two named characters anyways.Anonymous Friend wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:09 pm Back to Insert characters, if you're adapted something that already exists, books or video game or whatnot, where the thing just begins and you might want many of the lore and story bits explained to a newcomer, you would use an insert character. Many, many movies and shows do it. You might just never noticed it. Rachel from Friends, Robin from HIMYM, the human in that Sonic movie, the protag from Tenet ... all newcomers who had to be introduced to the premise. Most things just use one or more characters from the story to do so. Original Inserts can be used if you don't want any of the "main" group to have to be That Guy.
Where as Dragon Ball and Mortal Kombat each arc has a ton of characters to pick off. No need for an OC.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
You know, I just remembered a really terrible example, not in a film adaptation, surprisingly enough, but in a sequel to the original source material. I'm talking about Tekken 7 and that goddamn Reporter character. Talk about adding a pointless audience perspective character who quite literally ruins the entire story. Huge spoilers below for anyone who hasn't played.
TK7's story mode is groundbreaking in many ways. It's supposed to be the denouement to the Kazuya-Heihachi Mishima conflict which has been going on since the very first game, making it the longest ongoing sequential storyline not just in fighting games, but video games period (Harada even got a Guinness World Record for it). As such, it pretty much entirely focuses on them while other characters make scant cameo appearances. Usually, fighting game story modes try to cram in every playable character and give them an arbitrary role to play. Here, there's no forced illusion that all of these characters are equally important, which I actually kinda respect. TK7 laser-focuses on the original Mishima father-son conflict and even writes out Jin to do so, a pretty risky move considering he's the most popular protagonist. The cutscenes innovate by gorgeously integrating gameplay seamlessly. You can be in the middle of a fight and suddenly the camera pans out to a satellite observing the battle in space. They even incorporate Akuma/Gouki from Street Fighter into the storyline, which I've never seen done before with a crossover guest character. He actually plays a really important role (perhaps too important...)
But for whatever reason, they decided to ruin all that potential by introducing The Reporter, some cripplingly bland, generic NPC guy who comments on the entire story in the driest, dullest tone of voice you could possibly imagine. So he hates Jin Kazama because the Mishima Zaibatsu under his command destroyed his home town and killed his family (so pretty much a watered down Miguel) and decides to investigate everything going on with the Mishima family. Except Jin literally spends 99.9% of this game in a coma, so why does he care about Kazuya or Heihachi? Why should we care? His sole purpose is to artificially pad out an otherwise concise, compelling story into agonisingly boring chunks. It's like, you enjoying this awesome interactive cutscene of Heihachi and Gouki throwing hands in a dojo? Too bad, time for another exposition dump about the Hachijo dynasty. Criminal.
All that screentime could've been used to expand the roles of, ya know, the actual characters we care about. Kazumi, Kazuya's mother and the origin of the Mishima Devil Gene, gets relegated to a posthumous cameo even though she's the final boss of arcade mode and was hyped as having a huge role to play. Lars and Alisa get a sweet reunion for fans of TK6's story, but they're just kinda there for the sake of it, even though Lars' Mishima connection (he's Heihachi's bastard son and therefore Kazuya's half-brother) could've been explored further. Even Kazuya feels like he could've been used more effectively.
The Reporter plays a somewhat important role in getting the scoop about Heihachi's past and his role in Kazumi's death, but I would've preferred it if they made Heihachi's story an unreliable account, and they didn't need to focus on this reporter character for so long just to build up to this scene. I don't know how I feel about this sudden sympathetic origin for Heihachi when he's been nothing but a cold-hearted evil bastard in every other game, including this one. In an earlier scene, he literally laughs while launching a satellite laser to annihilate a populated city block. Maybe Kazuya could've given a different version of events? Maybe Kazumi comes back from the dead, Heihachi kills her again (drawing doubt that his sob story was true), and that drives Kazuya into an apeshit frenzy during his climactic volcano duel against his father?
Anyway, yeah... point is, audience insert characters suck dick. Don't want it in Dragon Ball.
TK7's story mode is groundbreaking in many ways. It's supposed to be the denouement to the Kazuya-Heihachi Mishima conflict which has been going on since the very first game, making it the longest ongoing sequential storyline not just in fighting games, but video games period (Harada even got a Guinness World Record for it). As such, it pretty much entirely focuses on them while other characters make scant cameo appearances. Usually, fighting game story modes try to cram in every playable character and give them an arbitrary role to play. Here, there's no forced illusion that all of these characters are equally important, which I actually kinda respect. TK7 laser-focuses on the original Mishima father-son conflict and even writes out Jin to do so, a pretty risky move considering he's the most popular protagonist. The cutscenes innovate by gorgeously integrating gameplay seamlessly. You can be in the middle of a fight and suddenly the camera pans out to a satellite observing the battle in space. They even incorporate Akuma/Gouki from Street Fighter into the storyline, which I've never seen done before with a crossover guest character. He actually plays a really important role (perhaps too important...)
But for whatever reason, they decided to ruin all that potential by introducing The Reporter, some cripplingly bland, generic NPC guy who comments on the entire story in the driest, dullest tone of voice you could possibly imagine. So he hates Jin Kazama because the Mishima Zaibatsu under his command destroyed his home town and killed his family (so pretty much a watered down Miguel) and decides to investigate everything going on with the Mishima family. Except Jin literally spends 99.9% of this game in a coma, so why does he care about Kazuya or Heihachi? Why should we care? His sole purpose is to artificially pad out an otherwise concise, compelling story into agonisingly boring chunks. It's like, you enjoying this awesome interactive cutscene of Heihachi and Gouki throwing hands in a dojo? Too bad, time for another exposition dump about the Hachijo dynasty. Criminal.
All that screentime could've been used to expand the roles of, ya know, the actual characters we care about. Kazumi, Kazuya's mother and the origin of the Mishima Devil Gene, gets relegated to a posthumous cameo even though she's the final boss of arcade mode and was hyped as having a huge role to play. Lars and Alisa get a sweet reunion for fans of TK6's story, but they're just kinda there for the sake of it, even though Lars' Mishima connection (he's Heihachi's bastard son and therefore Kazuya's half-brother) could've been explored further. Even Kazuya feels like he could've been used more effectively.
The Reporter plays a somewhat important role in getting the scoop about Heihachi's past and his role in Kazumi's death, but I would've preferred it if they made Heihachi's story an unreliable account, and they didn't need to focus on this reporter character for so long just to build up to this scene. I don't know how I feel about this sudden sympathetic origin for Heihachi when he's been nothing but a cold-hearted evil bastard in every other game, including this one. In an earlier scene, he literally laughs while launching a satellite laser to annihilate a populated city block. Maybe Kazuya could've given a different version of events? Maybe Kazumi comes back from the dead, Heihachi kills her again (drawing doubt that his sob story was true), and that drives Kazuya into an apeshit frenzy during his climactic volcano duel against his father?
Anyway, yeah... point is, audience insert characters suck dick. Don't want it in Dragon Ball.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
Just saying, that's not a great argument against lore considering it's nerds who even play the games in the first place.
"Bogs down the story we're trying to watch, waters down the themes that worked in the original, creates overwrought "verses" that serve no purpose in series that don't need them, and only works when lore is the point of the story" are better arguments against lore and the obsession over it, but "only nerds care" is ULTRA counterintuitive when it comes to nerdy hobbies like video games and especially video game movies. Because I do agree with you; the worst things these movies do is add bullshit lore that we didn't need or better yet ALREADY HAD, but saying only nerds care makes no sense!
Which, if I may present a devil's advocate, I wish these movies were geared MORE towards. I want video game movies to appeal more to nerds and probably written by nerds, not for casual audiences. That's why video game movies have been shit for decades. That's why we have this whole shitty problem of audience stand-in characters and making the themes and characters safer and less like the video games— it's not for the nerds' benefit, and THAT is the problem.
AND ON TOPIC...
"Live action Dragon Ball" is a terrible idea without caveats because let's face it: when people say "live action Dragon Ball," what are they really saying?
Americanized Hollywood-created martial arts-themed superhero movie with Dragon Ball branding. They only ever view the live-action moviemaking process through the lens of Hollywood and its bullshit and trying to fit Dragon Ball into that doesn't work. Even if Evolution was more faithful to the source material, it wouldn't have worked. The people behind it would all but have to go meet the original Hong Kong filmmakers, learn how they did it right, and then come back and dedicate themselves to combining THAT with the special effects used for MCU movies rather than try "kung fu-ing" an MCU or DCU movie.
It's entirely because of Hollywood that we even have to discuss "audience stand-in" characters, whom for Dragon Ball would be some stale piece of shit suburban whitebread kid who is a big anime fan that everything's explained to because characters like Krillin and Bulma are just too unrelatable. If we ever get a live-action Dragon Ball movie, I really do wish it would just be the heroes, the villains appearing, some bullshit motivation, and then fight until the ending on a shot of Live-Action Goku thumbing-up the camera while laying in a field all bruised and beaten. That's how it should go. No BS with "here's a kid who learns about Saiyans and Namekians and whoever else and only heard about all this on his Japanese toons," no useless lore, no forced comedy scenes (save for anything Toriyama may approve), DEFINITELY no romantic subplot because you just know Hollywood or Netflix needs those, just do it right! FUCK.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
Yeah, most non-nerds I know just play shooters or sports games.Yuli Ban wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:13 pmJust saying, that's not a great argument against lore considering it's nerds who even play the games in the first place.
"Bogs down the story we're trying to watch, waters down the themes that worked in the original, creates overwrought "verses" that serve no purpose in series that don't need them, and only works when lore is the point of the story" are better arguments against lore and the obsession over it, but "only nerds care" is ULTRA counterintuitive when it comes to nerdy hobbies like video games and especially video game movies. Because I do agree with you; the worst things these movies do is add bullshit lore that we didn't need or better yet ALREADY HAD, but saying only nerds care makes no sense!
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
Yeah, the fact that live-action Dragon Ball threads are dominated by talk of Hollywood directors and actors perplexes me. I mean, it's fairly universal that the majority here are purists for the original Japanese story, right? And we all remember what a trainwreck Evolution was? Yet a surprising number of people then go ahead and court the idea of Hollywood having another crack at it and undoubtedly making the exact same mistakes, in the same breath. "Fuck those talentless hacks from Texas who mutilated our favourite show... Oh hey, Hollywood, fancy mutilating our favourite show again?" I don't get it.Yuli Ban wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:13 pm "Live action Dragon Ball" is a terrible idea without caveats because let's face it: when people say "live action Dragon Ball," what are they really saying?
Americanized Hollywood-created martial arts-themed superhero movie with Dragon Ball branding. They only ever view the live-action moviemaking process through the lens of Hollywood and its bullshit and trying to fit Dragon Ball into that doesn't work. Even if Evolution was more faithful to the source material, it wouldn't have worked. The people behind it would all but have to go meet the original Hong Kong filmmakers, learn how they did it right, and then come back and dedicate themselves to combining THAT with the special effects used for MCU movies rather than try "kung fu-ing" an MCU or DCU movie.
It's entirely because of Hollywood that we even have to discuss "audience stand-in" characters, whom for Dragon Ball would be some stale piece of shit suburban whitebread kid who is a big anime fan that everything's explained to because characters like Krillin and Bulma are just too unrelatable. If we ever get a live-action Dragon Ball movie, I really do wish it would just be the heroes, the villains appearing, some bullshit motivation, and then fight until the ending on a shot of Live-Action Goku thumbing-up the camera while laying in a field all bruised and beaten. That's how it should go. No BS with "here's a kid who learns about Saiyans and Namekians and whoever else and only heard about all this on his Japanese toons," no useless lore, no forced comedy scenes (save for anything Toriyama may approve), DEFINITELY no romantic subplot because you just know Hollywood or Netflix needs those, just do it right! FUCK.
The majority of American directors who could feasibly pull of a Dragon Ball movie tend to be more invested in the media that inspired Dragon Ball. They're of the generation that were regularly popping to the pictures to see Jackie Chan in his prime. They don't care nearly so much about some kids' manga starring monkey-tailed bed-head Jackie Chan.
I think a great choice of director for a Dragon Ball movie made on its home soil would be Takashi Miike. He already has a strong calibre for manga and video game adaptations that manage to be entertaining while being painstakingly accurate to the source material (as live-action anime movies tend to be). He can do violence (boy, can he do violence), he can do tongue-in-cheek surreal humour. He's the man. Forget Hollywood.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
I appreciate your perspective, but I stand by my statement in large part because it wasn't nerds who played Mortal Kombat. I remember when it came out. EVERYONE was playing it and talking about it whether they were the nerds or the popular kids. I can see where you see a connection between not trying to appeal to hardcore fans and audience stand ins, but I don't think the issue is that cut and dry. The original MK movie didn't overthink a rather simple premise. That's the issue, people tend to overthink these things.
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Re: Audience "Stand-In" characters (Cole Young) and Narrative Liberties with Live Action Dragon Ball
I myself have started to come to the conclusion that maybe something as distinctly Eastern as Dragon Ball would be better off being made in Asia. At this point, I have doubts that Hollywood adaptations of manga and anime will ever truly catch on. Alita: Battle Angel came close, but it didn’t make enough to justify a sequel, and that had James Cameron’s direct involvement.Yuli Ban wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 5:13 pmJust saying, that's not a great argument against lore considering it's nerds who even play the games in the first place.
"Bogs down the story we're trying to watch, waters down the themes that worked in the original, creates overwrought "verses" that serve no purpose in series that don't need them, and only works when lore is the point of the story" are better arguments against lore and the obsession over it, but "only nerds care" is ULTRA counterintuitive when it comes to nerdy hobbies like video games and especially video game movies. Because I do agree with you; the worst things these movies do is add bullshit lore that we didn't need or better yet ALREADY HAD, but saying only nerds care makes no sense!
Which, if I may present a devil's advocate, I wish these movies were geared MORE towards. I want video game movies to appeal more to nerds and probably written by nerds, not for casual audiences. That's why video game movies have been shit for decades. That's why we have this whole shitty problem of audience stand-in characters and making the themes and characters safer and less like the video games— it's not for the nerds' benefit, and THAT is the problem.
AND ON TOPIC...
"Live action Dragon Ball" is a terrible idea without caveats because let's face it: when people say "live action Dragon Ball," what are they really saying?
Americanized Hollywood-created martial arts-themed superhero movie with Dragon Ball branding. They only ever view the live-action moviemaking process through the lens of Hollywood and its bullshit and trying to fit Dragon Ball into that doesn't work. Even if Evolution was more faithful to the source material, it wouldn't have worked. The people behind it would all but have to go meet the original Hong Kong filmmakers, learn how they did it right, and then come back and dedicate themselves to combining THAT with the special effects used for MCU movies rather than try "kung fu-ing" an MCU or DCU movie.
It's entirely because of Hollywood that we even have to discuss "audience stand-in" characters, whom for Dragon Ball would be some stale piece of shit suburban whitebread kid who is a big anime fan that everything's explained to because characters like Krillin and Bulma are just too unrelatable. If we ever get a live-action Dragon Ball movie, I really do wish it would just be the heroes, the villains appearing, some bullshit motivation, and then fight until the ending on a shot of Live-Action Goku thumbing-up the camera while laying in a field all bruised and beaten. That's how it should go. No BS with "here's a kid who learns about Saiyans and Namekians and whoever else and only heard about all this on his Japanese toons," no useless lore, no forced comedy scenes (save for anything Toriyama may approve), DEFINITELY no romantic subplot because you just know Hollywood or Netflix needs those, just do it right! FUCK.