Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 70 - DBZ 149-153

[Robo4900]

Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 70 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

Another late posting this week. Sorry.
It's also once again a fairly trivia-light thread.

I'll try to aim for beefier trivia sections when I have a bit more free time. (KBABZ should be back soonish too, hopefully, so that should help us along with trivia quite a lot. )

Previous thread: Week 69 (nice) (DBZ 144-148)
Next thread: Week 71 (DBZ 154-158)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 302 - How I Have Waited For this Day!! Cell’s Prologue to Perfection (DBZ episode 149)
Dub title: He's Here
Originally aired 22nd of July 1992
Kai equivalent: Episode 73 - This is the Power of a Super Namekian! No. 17 vs Piccolo
Written by: Katsuyuki Sumisawa
Episode director: Daisuke Nishio
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama

Piccolo and No. 17 continue their even battle, with neither of them giving an inch. The island is destroyed by this tremendous collision of power, and crumples into the sea. Having finally completed the artificial humans’ emergency deactivation controller, Bulma takes the infant Trunks and hurries to Kame House in her plane. While No. 17’s energy never falls no matter how much he fights, Piccolo is gradually losing stamina. At this point, the powered-up Cell appears.

Anime-only/filler content: Extra dialogue between Goku and Gohan, extensions to the Piccolo vs 17 fight, Dr. Brief tending to baby Trunks.

Episode 303 - The Suicidal Counterattack Proves Ineffective! Piccolo’s Flame Burns Out!! (DBZ episode 150)
Dub title: Up to Piccolo
Originally aired 29th of July 1992
Kai equivalent: Episode 74 - Run, No. 17! Piccolo’s Suicidal Resistance
Written by: Aya Matsui
Episode director: Kazuya Hisada
Animation supervisor: Mitsuo Hashimoto

As he appears before Piccolo and No. 17, Cell has already acquired tremendous power. Kuririn flies off to meet Bulma, in order to get the artificial humans’ emergency stop controller just a little bit sooner. They have to destroy the artificial humans before they are absorbed by Cell!! Piccolo faces Cell so that the artificial humans could escape, but before Tenshinhan’s eyes he is pierced through by Cell’s energy blast.

Anime-only/filler content: Gohan trying to run to help Piccolo (and Goku stopping him).

Episode 304 - One Final Remaining Hope… The Silent Warrior No. 16 Takes Action!! (DBZ episode 151)
Dub title: Silent Warrior
Originally aired 5th of August 1992
Kai equivalent: Episode 74 - Run, No. 17! Piccolo’s Suicidal Resistance and Episode 75 - Unmeasured Power! The Silent Warrior No. 16 Makes his Move
Written by: Aya Matsui
Episode director: Mitsuo Hashimoto
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama

At God’s temple, Goku and the others sense that Piccolo’s ki has vanished. Goku stops Gohan as he tries to fly off, unable to tolerate this, since if he goes it will just increase the number of victims. Meanwhile, having defeated Piccolo, Cell beats No. 17 around, trying to absorb him. At this point, No. 16 steps in. It turns out that his power is formidable enough for him to be able to battle evenly with Cell. He rips off Cell’s tail, so that Cell will be unable to absorb No. 17 and 18. But Cell regenerates his tail, since he has Piccolo’s cells.

Anime-only/filler content: Goku punching Gohan when he tries to go to fight Cell, extensions to 17's fight with Cell, Trunks playing with the Androids' shutdown remote.

Episode 305 - No. 17 is Swallowed… The Transforming Cell is a Super Gourmet (DBZ episode 152)
Dub title: Say Goodbye, 17
Originally aired 12th of August 1992
Kai equivalent: Episode 75 - Unmeasured Power! The Silent Warrior No. 16 Makes his Move
Written by: Aya Matsui
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Tadayoshi Yamamuro

In order to protect No. 17, No. 16 has challenged Cell to battle. Unleashing power on par with Cell, No. 16 uses his special attack, the Hell’s Flash, to finally inflict huge damage to Cell! But Cell survives, and succeeds in catching No. 17 off-guard and absorbing him. Transforming as he gives off violent ki, he blows No. 16 away with a single blow. Cell then uses No. 17’s voice to try and pressure No. 18 into merging with him. In order for No. 18 to escape, Tenshinhan prepares himself for death and unleashed the Shin Kikōhō against Cell.

Anime-only/filler content: Goku and Gohan commentating the Cell vs 16 fight, Cell getting used to his new body.

Episode 306 - Tomorrow I am Going to Pulverize You!! Goku’s Challenge (DBZ episode 153)
Dub title: Sacrifice
Originally aired 19th of August 1992
Kai equivalent: Episode 76 - Tenshinhan’s Do-or-Die Shin Kikōhō! Save Your Brother-in-Arms, Son Goku
Written by: Hiroshi Toda
Episode director: Daisuke Nishio
Animation supervisor: Yukio Ebisawa

Even Cell is unable to move at the rapid fire of the Shin Kikōhō. No. 16 and 18 escape during this time. After Tenshinhan uses up all of his energy and Cell is about to finish him off, Goku teleports there. He challenges Cell, saying that he will definitely defeat him in one day. Saving Tenshinhan and the barely alive Piccolo, Goku teleports to God’s temple, while Cell chases after No. 18. Vegeta and Trunks then finally emerge from the Room of Spirit and Time.

Anime-only/filler content: Chaozu asking Yamucha and Roshi to help Ten.

-

Interesting trivia:

• At this point in time in the manga, Cell curbstomps Vegeta, Trunks begins powering up to his new, bulked-up form, and we learn Trunks's origin story.
  • We'll talk about Trunks: The Story when we get to the Trunks TV special, in six weeks.
• Funimation's script for Z episode 149 mistakenly refers to the Room of Spirit and Time as the Pendulum Room.
• Z episode 151 features the one and only time Imperfect Cell is drawn with teeth.
• Funimation's script for Z episode 151 has 16 explain that Cell couldn't absorb him because he's "a different model", not because he's entirely cybernetic.
• In the end-of-episode narration in Z episode 152, the narrator once again refers to the Room of Spirit and Time as the Pendulum Room.
• Funimation would later reuse the name Sacrifice for their dub of Z episode 25.
• In addition to Funi's scripts seeming to have even more obvious problems in these episodes compared to the last several, the episode titles are once again nothing to do with the original Japanese titles (whereas the past few weeks' Funi episode titles were mostly just a shortened version of the Japanese titles). It's possible they once again didn't have Simmons' translations to hand when they were producing these episodes and it'll improve some time in the next few weeks.
• There are 15 redrawn shots in Kai episode 73, there are 14 in episode 74, there are 7 in episode 75, and there are 15 in episode 76.
• At the end of this week's viewing, you'll have seen as much Z as there is (original) Dragon Ball... Not that there should be distinction between the two, of course.

Episode summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide. Dragon Ball logo provided by KBABZ.

[MasenkoHA]

Me: Goku may not be a responsible parent but the “Goku is a bad dad” people can get wrecked he’s a good dad who lo...

*Sees Goku knock Gohan down*


Goddamit

[KBABZ]

Me: Goku may not be a responsible parent but the “Goku is a bad dad” people can get wrecked he’s a good dad who lo...

*Sees Goku knock Gohan down*


Goddamit

Cut from Kai, thank goodness.

Interesting that they'd call it the Pendulum Room, that of course is the room from the OG-DB filler episode where Goku travelled back to Mutaito's time.

[MasenkoHA]

Interesting that they'd call it the Pendulum Room, that of course is the room from the OG-DB filler episode where Goku travelled back to Mutaito's time.

It’s also the room where the Z Warriors go back to the war torn planet to fight the two Saiyans in Saiyan arc filler.


Seems they confused the room where characters go back in time (or an illusion of going back in time) with the room where 365 days equals one day outside.


I guess it’s an easy mistake to make?

[Robo4900]

Me: Goku may not be a responsible parent but the “Goku is a bad dad” people can get wrecked he’s a good dad who lo...

*Sees Goku knock Gohan down*

Goddamit

My sentiments exactly.

Interesting that they'd call it the Pendulum Room, that of course is the room from the OG-DB filler episode where Goku travelled back to Mutaito's time.

It’s also the room where the Z Warriors go back to the war torn planet to fight the two Saiyans in Saiyan arc filler.

Seems they confused the room where characters go back in time (or an illusion of going back in time) with the room where 365 days equals one day outside.

I guess it’s an easy mistake to make?

It's an easy mistake to make when your scripts have zero quality control. This is circa 2001 Funimation, remember. I'm very glad their standards are higher these days.

Anyway, do note that by this point, Funimation likely hadn't dubbed the DB episode with the time room yet (they may have started on DB by this point, I'm not entirely sure, but they sure as hell hadn't got as far as the heavenly training arc), so it would entirely be confusion with that Saiyan arc filler which they'd dubbed back in 1996, a full five years earlier. My guess is they assumed this "Room of Spirit and Time" was that time room from five years ago and resurrected the name in their first draft scripts, then realised it was entirely different later on and corrected it on their scripts, but some uses of "Pendulum Room" fell through the cracks.

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah since the dub Piccolo arcs didn’t come out until 2003 they definitely hadn’t gotten that far when they were dubbing the Cell saga. I don’t think they actually started working on Dragon Ball until after the Cell Games.

[Robo4900]

Yeah since the dub Piccolo arcs didn’t come out until 2003 they definitely hadn’t gotten that far when they were dubbing the Cell saga. I don’t think they actually started working on Dragon Ball until after the Cell Games.

Apparently Funi's DB dub began airing between the Cell Games and Afterlife Tournament arcs, so they were probably recording it at the same time as the second half of the Cell arc.

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah since the dub Piccolo arcs didn’t come out until 2003 they definitely hadn’t gotten that far when they were dubbing the Cell saga. I don’t think they actually started working on Dragon Ball until after the Cell Games.

Apparently Funi's DB dub began airing between the Cell Games and Afterlife Tournament arcs, so they were probably recording it at the same time as the second half of the Cell arc.

There was an 8 month gap between the last episode of the Cell saga and the first episode of the Dragon Ball dub. “Find that Stone!” aired the same day as “Warriors of the Dead. “ So I would think they started dubbing Dragon Ball more or less when they started dubbing “Season 5” of DBZ

But Funimation is really weird about release dates and crap so who knows they very well could have started dubbing Dragon Ball towards the end of Cell and just waited that long to start running the episodes

[MyVisionity]

I don't remember them ever calling the Room of Spirit and Time the "Pendulum Room" before. Are you sure this isn't just in the Remastered version??

You guys really didn't like Goku knocking Gohan in the face? I thought it was appropriate given the severity of the situation, and felt that Goku was actually doing right by Gohan as a father. Plus they're both warriors, it seems like natural behavior given their lifestyle. And it's not like Gohan can't take it.

I did find it amusing how Funi added in the extra dialogue with the apologies and I love you's between them or whatever it was lol.

[MasenkoHA]

I don't remember them ever calling the Room of Spirit and Time the "Pendulum Room" before. Are you sure this isn't just in the Remastered version??

There wasn’t any redubbing done at this point outside of Kyle Hebert replacing Dale Kelly. If they referred to it as the Pendulum Room (I can’t recall either way) it was done in both versions.

You guys really didn't like Goku knocking Gohan in the face? I thought it was appropriate given the severity of the situation, and felt that Goku was actually doing right by Gohan as a father. Plus they're both warriors, it seems like natural behavior given their lifestyle. And it's not like Gohan can't take it.

No, I consider that child abuse and there was no justifying it.

And it doesn’t matter how strong Gohan is, Goku literally knocked him down to the ground.


[/quote]

[Cure Dragon 255]

Me: Goku may not be a responsible parent but the “Goku is a bad dad” people can get wrecked he’s a good dad who lo...

*Sees Goku knock Gohan down*


Goddamit

That's Toei shit. And even if it wasnt it was Goku trying to stop Gohan from killing himself fighting Cell.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

I don't remember them ever calling the Room of Spirit and Time the "Pendulum Room" before. Are you sure this isn't just in the Remastered version??

There wasn’t any redubbing done at this point outside of Kyle Hebert replacing Dale Kelly. If they referred to it as the Pendulum Room (I can’t recall either way) it was done in both versions.

You guys really didn't like Goku knocking Gohan in the face? I thought it was appropriate given the severity of the situation, and felt that Goku was actually doing right by Gohan as a father. Plus they're both warriors, it seems like natural behavior given their lifestyle. And it's not like Gohan can't take it.

No, I consider that child abuse and there was no justifying it.

And it doesn’t matter how strong Gohan is, Goku literally knocked him down to the ground.

[/quote]

Yeah, i think that was a little excessive on Goku's part and am glad they struck it from Kai. He could've stopped Gohan in another way that doesn't involve smashing him right in the face.

[Robo4900]

You guys really didn't like Goku knocking Gohan in the face? I thought it was appropriate given the severity of the situation, and felt that Goku was actually doing right by Gohan as a father. Plus they're both warriors, it seems like natural behavior given their lifestyle. And it's not like Gohan can't take it.

No, I consider that child abuse and there was no justifying it.

And it doesn’t matter how strong Gohan is, Goku literally knocked him down to the ground.

Yeah, i think that was a little excessive on Goku's part and am glad they struck it from Kai. He could've stopped Gohan in another way that doesn't involve smashing him right in the face.

Agreed. Hitting children (or anyone, really, in 90% of situations) is not just bad parenting, but bad human-ing.

[KBABZ]

You guys really didn't like Goku knocking Gohan in the face? I thought it was appropriate given the severity of the situation, and felt that Goku was actually doing right by Gohan as a father. Plus they're both warriors, it seems like natural behavior given their lifestyle. And it's not like Gohan can't take it.

You have the worst opinions, don't you?

[Cure Dragon 255]

"Quietly wishes he hadnt said what he did"

Anyway, despite my horrible take I now regret voicing that's a Toei thing. You cant fault Goku for something he didnt do in the manga.

[MasenkoHA]

You cant fault Goku for something he didnt do in the manga.

But, I can fault Goku for doing something in the anime when discussing the anime.

And I do.

[Cure Dragon 255]

But the way you phrased it is as if Goku really is that way.

[MasenkoHA]

It’s a rewatch and discussion of the anime. The context is pretty freakin clear here.

[KBABZ]

But the way you phrased it is as if Goku really is that way.

He is that way as presented in the anime for that moment.

By this point, it's no secret that there are at least five different Gokus. There's emotional impulse Toriyama Kid Goku, there childishly nostalgic Toei Kid Goku, there's "I want a good fight but will fight for blood if you hurt people" Goku, there's "I'm a hero" Toei Goku, and then there's "I'm a fight-seeking buffoon" Super Goku.

Toriyama has stated in the past that Toei's interpretation of Goku has always been a bit more heroic than he feels he really is, and that's not considering how his personality changes over time. For Toriyama Goku's a character who is less heroic and more able to be criticized by the audience compared to Toei's, who is treated a bit more as a straight hero (but not nearly as much as Funi's dub, of course).

So with that in mind, yeah, you can call Goku an asshole for that moment in the anime, especially given how prominent the anime is over the manga that makes it more than worth discussing as its own entity separate from the manga.

[MasenkoHA]

But the way you phrased it is as if Goku really is that way.

He is that way as presented in the anime for that moment.

By this point, it's no secret that there are at least five different Gokus. There's emotional impulse Toriyama Kid Goku, there childishly nostalgic Toei Kid Goku, there's "I want a good fight but will fight for blood if you hurt people" Goku, there's "I'm a hero" Toei Goku, and then there's "I'm a fight-seeking buffoon" Super Goku.

Toriyama has stated in the past that Toei's interpretation of Goku has always been a bit more heroic than he feels he really is, and that's not considering how his personality changes over time. For Toriyama Goku's a character who is less heroic and more able to be criticized by the audience compared to Toei's, who is treated a bit more as a straight hero (but not nearly as much as Funi's dub, of course).

So with that in mind, yeah, you can call Goku an asshole for that moment in the anime, especially given how prominent the anime is over the manga that makes it more than worth discussing as its own entity separate from the manga.

All of this tbh.


Again, not even really discussing Goku’s character as a whole just this one specific isolated moment that left a sour taste in my mouth. No different than talking about Toei adding in more lecherous moments with Roshi ad how gross that was.