Which is the character that you don't like

[ABED]

Because saving my home isn't a superheroic feat. In this case, home wouldn't be metaphorical. Saving the (home)world is by definition superheroic.

Because you brought up Gero randomly by saying, and I quote "Had they been proactive about stopping Dr. Gero, they wouldn't have to train." which had nothing to do with what I was saying. You said they wouldn't have to train which would imply that they preemptively killed him. Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing?

No because people can disagree with you without arguing for its own sake. I'm gonna use your own line against, you, that implication is your own. Stopping him doesn't require killing Gero that early in the game because he physically isn't a threat until he gets turned into a cyborg. How my point wasn't applicable to yours, I have ZERO idea because it was very much on point. I'd love to read the train of thought to understand how you read that and thought it had nothing to do with what you were saying.

They are. If the Earth is invaded or threatened in any way, they defend it. Not sure what else you think qualifies that duty.

people who don't also actively put it in danger to begin with.

Your grade on how they choose to fight misses the point. It's not about how you think they should act, it's about whether the characters would react in a particular way.

And most if not all of them would have Shunkan Ido

It took Goku a year to learn it and he didn't do anything else. Teaching the others would be too time consuming.

[BWri]

Because saving my home isn't a superheroic feat. In this case, home wouldn't be metaphorical. Saving the (home)world is by definition superheroic.

Again, a pointless distinction for what we're talking about. Every big fight puts the entire planet in danger which includes their actual homes and family members (think Frieza wiping out an entire city and destroying the planet in RoF). Every one of Moro's henchman had the power to destroy the planet which again is where they live. I can only consider this distinction you're making to be a deflection.

No because people can disagree with you without arguing for its own sake. I'm gonna use your own line against, you, that implication is your own. Stopping him doesn't require killing Gero that early in the game because he physically isn't a threat until he gets turned into a cyborg.

Except that wasn't even an option. Now who thinks these characters are superheroes? I say that because it sounds like you're assuming the Z fighters would imprison Gero or report him to the authorities, something that no member of the cast has done at that point, not even Krillin since he wasn't a cop yet. The whole conversation Goku had with Bulma was predicated on killing him. Bulma specifically mentions attacking Gero preemptively. These guys aren't Batman. They don't start emphasizing non-lethal strategies until RoF (more superhero tactics ). If they don't imprison him, kill him, or report him to the authorities then what do they do? Knock him out and leave? What good would that do? They could destroy his stuff, but it doesn't seem like that would stop him either and they'd have to do it every few years and keep tabs on him (like superheroes). But again, this wasn't even in Goku and Bulma's conversation. They only mention assaulting him.

Your grade on how they choose to fight misses the point. It's not about how you think they should act, it's about whether the characters would react in a particular way.

It may miss whatever point is on your mind, which I'm not comprehending, but it is very much so on point in saying that they are crap at doing the thing they are supposedly so interested in doing which is protecting the Earth, or better yet, let's just call it preparing for the next big threat. I know they aren't superheroes and are selfish people, that goes without saying, but their negligence is now taking them beyond that into the realm of complete idiots. That's what I have a problem with because self preservation should be very important (and is according to the Universal Survival arc). In terms of reactions, we know that the characters are capable of strategy and preparation as seen in many of Z's arcs. We even know that they do in fact have heroic and selfless tendencies along with a strong desire to survive. Most of them are battle maniacs but nothing I previously outlined negates that. What I've suggested only enhances their potential strength gain and preparedness for combat. Goku and Vegeta would barely change, they'd only check in more often at home or setup a better warning whenever an enemy that Gohan and Piccolo couldn't handle shows up. But the other characters would be better prepared for this stuff. We've already seen glimpses of this type of preparation when they joined the Ginga Patrol and prepared for Moro's invasion. Why haven't they figured out that they should be doing this all the time?

It took Goku a year to learn it and he didn't do anything else. Teaching the others would be too time consuming.

Not at all. Goku could take them to Yardrat and explain the danger that's coming. Since he has a good relationship with Pybara, I'm sure the Elder would be accommodating. And the humans are smart enough to know that they'd be better off with such a useful skill since they couldn't hope to match the Super Saiyans. I'm sure they'd consider it a great use of their time. I mean, even if only Yamcha and Chaozu learned it, it's a win for the group. But again, as far as the Cell arc goes, I'm fine with it as is. The characters can be as dumb as they're already written, but since that time, I think it's nonsensical that they wouldn't have learned from the experience to be better prepared.

[ABED]

doing the thing they are supposedly so interested in doing which is protecting the Earth

That isn't their primary goal! What are you not getting? How many times have they put the fight above the safety of the planet? I've given you a plethora of examples and you keep insisting that they are crappy protectors of the planet. Yes they are but that's not their priority.

but their negligence is now taking them beyond that into the realm of complete idiots

If you think that it's a remotely new development, you are clearly missing something right in front of you.

I can only consider this distinction you're making to be a deflection.

Of course, you are incapable of thinking that anyone could possibly disagree with your point. Superheroes save the world pre-emptively because that's their primary aim. They spend their time trying to stop threats before they become anything.

[Hulk10]

I have 3 characters I REALLY don't like. Grand Zeno both versions, Zamasu, and Dr. Gero, both of the latter two for obvious reasons.

Zeno I don't like because of the fact that he is WAY too quick to erase things and he is WAAAY too immature to be the King of All.

[ABED]

I dig that the king of all is a child. It's very Toriyama and undercuts the whole divinity idea.

Except that wasn't even an option.

Goku let Piccolo go. He also admonished Vegeta for killing the Ginyu Force when they were helpless. He's fine with non-lethal means. He's used them before. So yes, it would be an option. Bulma may have thought the only option was to kill Gero (can't recall off the top of my head) but Goku's response was half hearted. He didn't think it through because he didn't really care about that. He wanted to fight the cyborgs and that's that. It's not like his whole "we can't hurt him, he hasn't done anything yet" was some well thought out philosophical response. It was an off the cuff rationalization so he could convince her to not argue the point any further.

[Cipher]

DB is the only fiction I read with such uniquely irresponsible and intellectually lazy cast. Everyone just does the same stuff over and over. Like real people but worse.

Oh, man. Accidentally touching on part of why I love DB in a post intended to criticize it.

[BWri]

That isn't their primary goal! What are you not getting? How many times have they put the fight above the safety of the planet? I've given you a plethora of examples and you keep insisting that they are crappy protectors of the planet. Yes they are but that's not their priority.

It's their priority in every arc. They care about survival.

If you think that it's a remotely new development, you are clearly missing something right in front of you.

I'm not, it's just getting worse, like I've said previously. They aren't learning.

Superheroes save the world pre-emptively because that's their primary aim. They spend their time trying to stop threats before they become anything.

That's not what superheroes do. That's what the Justice Lords do, an evil alternate version of the Justice League who took the justice thing a little too far. Superheroes are reactive. There's a robbery, they go stop it. There's a big destructive event, they go put an end to it and save as many people along the way.

[LoganForkHands73]

The thing about the Dragon Team, they all suck at long-term foresight. Or even short-term. They all basically exist in the moment, like dogs. Dr. Gero's gonna build psychotic androids that'll murder everyone they know and destroy the planet? Naaah, it's good, we'll just train to get stronger and meet half an hour beforehand and hope it works out. I wouldn't want to see them form a militaristic global defence force or anything ("Earth's Special Forces", anyone?) because they're all just a ragtag group of martial artists.

[BWri]

The thing about the Dragon Team, they all suck at long-term foresight. Or even short-term. They all basically exist in the moment, like dogs. Dr. Gero's gonna build psychotic androids that'll murder everyone they know and destroy the planet? Naaah, it's good, we'll just train to get stronger and meet half an hour beforehand and hope it works out.

It makes perfect sense for that arc. They were better prepared than they were for the Saiyans and for Namek, but still sloppy. The Earth hadn't literally been blown up at that point ... twice.

I wouldn't want to see them form a militaristic global defence force or anything ("Earth's Special Forces", anyone?) because they're all just a ragtag group of martial artists.

They already do this several times throughout the series though. Specifically when Moro invades. They're ready and prepped and literally a global defense force. That's like the most extreme version of that so far, with the united logos and everything. All I'm saying is, be better prepared. This stuff happens all the time now. There's a huge gulf of competency between where the "team" is now and a superheroic defense force. If a well oiled Global Defense Force is a 10 and what they're doing now is a 0, logically, just for the sake of survival, these guys should at least be at a 2.

[LoganForkHands73]

Eh, I'd say they were about as well prepared as they could possibly be for the Saiyan arc. At that point, simply getting the gang back together really was the best they could do in the circumstances, plus it took a lot of coordination to get Goku back to life at the right time. I think the Moro arc was the one acceptable exception to their usual style since they were all cooperating with the Galactic Patrol to fight off a huge invasion armada that they knew about in advance, not just one or two strong enemies. Even then they didn't have that long to prepare. When the Macareni Gang first show up, they were all as unprepared as they usually are.

Without bringing up the superhero comparison, it's worth reiterating that none of the Z-Warriors were equipped to be protectors of the planet. Of course, it makes sense for them to fill that role since they represent Earth's strongest defence, but that was never the expected goal of their training. It's like trying to force Mike Tyson to fight aliens, it's simply not their genre. Ultimately, their lackadaisical approach, stupid as it is, usually does work out well enough in the end (at this point, they all know full well that the whole point of their existence is to stall for Goku's eventual arrival) so they don't have much motivation to fix what ain't broke. Though thinking about it, aside from doing more training to keep in shape, there's not much more they can do to prepare for a random Freeza attack. So long as they have a sack o' senzu from Karin on hand and enough time to convene in a random tableland, they're usually good for any eventuality. I would like to see them have measures in place to make sure Buu participates, like just chuck him in the ROSAT if he falls asleep again.

[ABED]

That isn't their primary goal! What are you not getting? How many times have they put the fight above the safety of the planet? I've given you a plethora of examples and you keep insisting that they are crappy protectors of the planet. Yes they are but that's not their priority.

It's their priority in every arc. They care about survival.

If you think that it's a remotely new development, you are clearly missing something right in front of you.

I'm not, it's just getting worse, like I've said previously. They aren't learning.

Superheroes save the world pre-emptively because that's their primary aim. They spend their time trying to stop threats before they become anything.

That's not what superheroes do. That's what the Justice Lords do, an evil alternate version of the Justice League who took the justice thing a little too far. Superheroes are reactive. There's a robbery, they go stop it. There's a big destructive event, they go put an end to it and save as many people along the way.

yes, survive, but also they want to be victorious. They are martial artists, not suicidal. Goku put victory above his immediate safety. He clearly didn't want to die. he wanted to win the tournament. However, he didn't want help because that would get him disqualified. Is that someone whose priority is saving the world?

It's only getting worse because the stakes are higher, but the fundamentals are always there. They put the love of battle above the safety of the world, universe, multiverse, etc.

Preemptively doesn't mean killing people. Where did you get that idea? It just means stopping something before it even becomes an issue. Stopping doesn't mean lethal force. If they know something is going to go down, they aren't going to let it go down then react later.

[BWri]

DB is the only fiction I read with such uniquely irresponsible and intellectually lazy cast. Everyone just does the same stuff over and over. Like real people but worse.

Oh, man. Accidentally touching on part of why I love DB in a post intended to criticize it.

Believe it or not, I do like these aspects of the cast as well, just not to the degree it makes them look like complete idiots. Flaws are one thing but some of this stuff just feels ill-conceived.

[ABED]

They aren't stupid. Their primary goal is not what you are claiming and there's ample evidence that you don't acknowledge.

[BWri]

They aren't stupid. Their primary goal is not what you are claiming and there's ample evidence that you don't acknowledge.

I don't agree.

[nhienphan2808]

Fanon Goku, Fanon Vegeta, Fanon Bulma which takes up 99% of the fandom for these characters even with the new dub - "fandom" including Toyotaro's manga!Vegeta
Also everyone when dubbed by Chris Sabat ever, and Roshi's pervertedness.
Outside the manga, TV Special Bardock.

[ABED]

They aren't stupid. Their primary goal is not what you are claiming and there's ample evidence that you don't acknowledge.

I don't agree.

Shocker, but seriously, your argument boils down to them talking about wanting to save the world. You keep disregarding that they put the world in danger and it's not a recent development.

[PurestEvil]

Outside the manga, TV Special Bardock.

What do you not like about TV-Bardock? Is it because he is a dick?

[BWri]

They aren't stupid. Their primary goal is not what you are claiming and there's ample evidence that you don't acknowledge.

I don't agree.

Shocker, but seriously, your argument boils down to them talking about wanting to save the world. You keep disregarding that they put the world in danger and it's not a recent development.

I'm not sure how that really factors into the conversation we were having. I can't disregard it because just don't even know what point you're making.

Do their actions often-times put the world at risk? Yes. Do they purposely want to put the world at risk? No. Do they want to protect the Earth? Yes, they do it all the time and talk about it every arc. Have they protected the Earth since Piccolo Daimou's return to power? Yes, regularly. At least once every few years with a major 7 year hiatus in-between. Sometimes there are multiple world ending threats in the same year.

[Cold Skin]

I really dislike Raditz. It's probably the only character in the whole story that I strongly dislike and that I am never happy to see anywhere.
I can't find him appealing either in his appearance nor in his behavior, he's like an ugly, dull, barking brat to me.

And with the Kakarot game more obviously showing how he is treated as weak trash by Nappa and Vegeta, I could see more evidently why he possibly relishes being able to be the superior one and going "mwa ha ha ha, yeah I'm bad and I make the rules here, you're all ridiculous compared to me, I can betray and murder my own family unlike you guys", etc... It could have been a way to make me like him more in his behavior, at least...

But that little extra emphasis on this "mistreated as inferior, therefore relishing when he can be the superior super bad guy for once" sadly wasn't enough to change the way I feel: I don't like him physically (horrible costume, horrible color pattern, horrible haircut, everything...), I don't like him mentally at any point either. Not nice to see, not nice to hear (talking about his lines and not the voice itself which has nothing really wrong in itself), not anything to bring to the table in any aspect as he currently is...

But that is only my opinion, I guess even if there is technically nothing wrong with him, he is just unlucky enough to manage to hit every little thing I can dislike physically and mentally in a character somehow. It's not that surprising that it can happen with a franchise involving a thousand different characters, that there can be at least once an unlucky combination of everything I dislike.

[ABED]

I don't know how you don't know the point I'm trying to make. They don't want to see their homes destroyed but their PRIMARY goal, their raison detre, the thing that gets them up in the morning is the love of the fight. It's why they let threats live - so they can fight them. Saving the world comes second.

Your ONLY bit of evidence for your viewpoint is that they TALK about it, but actions speak louder than words. Goku cared way more about winning that championship than the safety of the world. He doesn't want to see people get hurt. He's not a monster but that isn't what's motivating him. If it were, he would allow the others to help, especially after Piccolo injured all four limbs.