How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Skar » Tue May 25, 2021 1:07 pm

Shaddy wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 7:17 amBut the animation is something that's directly comparable, and a lot less-arguably equivalent between Z and Super. You could actually measure which episodes had rushed production, overloaded staff or just poor work, and Super would probably hold up poorly compared to Z, even if it didn't have Yamamuro's chunky designs. You can't do that for power scaling inconsistencies, because the scale itself was never objective. Animation quality certainly isn't objective either, but it's a lot harder to argue that it doesn't matter if an animated series has good animation than it is to argue that power scaling debates based on mostly assumptions aren't very important.

I feel this kinda misses my point. Before we even knew about rushed production or any other problems, there were people arguing that this animation quality is acceptable basically because it's only as bad as the worst we've seen in DBZ. The studio didn't resort to this type of reasoning and acknowledged it wasn't intentional and that they wanted to improve it. Fans are far more accepting of that than being told they shouldn't complain about it.

Once again I'm not talking about only power scaling because it falls under the general criticism of an inconsistency such as an unnecessary retcon or out of character moment. If someone is arguing these are good for the story that's different but there shouldn't be a need to tell someone they shouldn't complain or that it's unimportant. If it's unimportant to them and not something they would argue in favor of keeping, it shouldn't matter to them if someone is suggests a certain inconsistency, retcon or any kind of questionable writing could be cut out of the story completely or handled differently.

There were some suggestions from fans that I didn't care for but since I was indifferent towards them meant I wouldn't mind if they did happen or changed. For example, there are fan recuts that remove some of these scenes. I haven't seen anyone questioning why they would do that since it's unimportant because the fact that they're unimportant and don't impact the story is why they could be removed with minimal effort. Not all the scenes they cut I thought needed to be but if I didn't think that scene added anything worthwhile then it didn't impact my viewing experience to see it removed. They're not saying those scenes completely ruin the story but they caused them to stop for a second and question so no harm in making a version without them.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Tue May 25, 2021 3:06 pm

Skar wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 1:07 pm I feel this kinda misses my point. Before we even knew about rushed production or any other problems, there were people arguing that this animation quality is acceptable basically because it's only as bad as the worst we've seen in DBZ. The studio didn't resort to this type of reasoning and acknowledged it wasn't intentional and that they wanted to improve it. Fans are far more accepting of that than being told they shouldn't complain about it.
But the problem with saying Super and Z have just as many animation issues is that it's wrong. To equate Z and Super's animation problems is to argue that animation itself isn't important, which is a much dumber thing to say than power scaling, because it's actually a real part of the show.
Skar wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 1:07 pm Once again I'm not talking about only power scaling because it falls under the general criticism of an inconsistency such as an unnecessary retcon or out of character moment. If someone is arguing these are good for the story that's different but there shouldn't be a need to tell someone they shouldn't complain or that it's unimportant. If it's unimportant to them and not something they would argue in favor of keeping, it shouldn't matter to them if someone is suggests a certain inconsistency, retcon or any kind of questionable writing could be cut out of the story completely or handled differently.
That's a very useful rule if you want people posting inane bullshit I guess. By this logic, isn't there absolutely no standard for what is and isn't a fair complaint? You have to draw the line somewhere, what is such a travesty about me drawing it at "not following made-up rules the old shows never followed"?
Skar wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 1:07 pm There were some suggestions from fans that I didn't care for but since I was indifferent towards them meant I wouldn't mind if they did happen or changed. For example, there are fan recuts that remove some of these scenes. I haven't seen anyone questioning why they would do that since it's unimportant because the fact that they're unimportant and don't impact the story is why they could be removed with minimal effort. Not all the scenes they cut I thought needed to be but if I didn't think that scene added anything worthwhile then it didn't impact my viewing experience to see it removed. They're not saying those scenes completely ruin the story but they caused them to stop for a second and question so no harm in making a version without them.
...Because fan edits can be completely personalized and don't affect official material. You can't compare those to legitimate grievances with the show because it's not necessarily representative of an inherent belief about what would be better narratively. Sometimes you just make a change for fun. Either way, I don't see a reason to demand this level of justification for saying something isn't important but not for the inverse. If I was supposed to give a shit about power scaling, maybe there should have been something in the actual story to convince the audience of that?

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Skar » Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm

Shaddy wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 3:06 pmBut the problem with saying Super and Z have just as many animation issues is that it's wrong. To equate Z and Super's animation problems is to argue that animation itself isn't important, which is a much dumber thing to say than power scaling, because it's actually a real part of the show.
My point was that there were some people who were quick to dismiss the criticism and make accusations of some double standard before we even knew the pre-production issues. There were people legitimately arguing that animation quality wasn't important and that it was acceptable. It was an example of how that logic never works to convince anyone because it's only seen as an excuse and having those complaints acknowledged and given an actual explanation was more effective. There's some criticism I've seen that I was willing to overlook based on circumstances surrounding the series like it being a revival, Toriyama not having worked on the series for decades, a whole new staff, etc.
That's a very useful rule if you want people posting inane bullshit I guess. By this logic, isn't there absolutely no standard for what is and isn't a fair complaint? You have to draw the line somewhere, what is such a travesty about me drawing it at "not following made-up rules the old shows never followed"?
I mean that's fine if you want to draw the line there but we've already established multiple times that strict power levels are not what I'm discussing and that I agree those fans are a minority. I'm not really sure why you keep jumping back to that. I tried to clarify in almost every comment how someone could criticize a power-up without caring about exact power levels. I included retcons, out of character moments, or any other writing someone might criticize because I've seem them get the same kind of dismissive response that hasn't worked to discourage anyone from discussing them. Granted it is less often than a few years ago so it's one of those things that dies down with time I guess.
...Because fan edits can be completely personalized and don't affect official material. You can't compare those to legitimate grievances with the show because it's not necessarily representative of an inherent belief about what would be better narratively. Sometimes you just make a change for fun. Either way, I don't see a reason to demand this level of justification for saying something isn't important but not for the inverse. If I was supposed to give a shit about power scaling, maybe there should have been something in the actual story to convince the audience of that?
Could you point to me where I've asked you to care about power scaling or any of the other things I've mentioned? I also didn't say you needed to justify why you think something is unimportant since that's an opinion you're free to have. I'm not sure what you meant by about the fan edits. Of course fan edits don't affect the official material but they're an option if someone wants to rewatch a shorter version and won't miss what was removed since they're usually listed. Not affecting the official material is a reason why I don't think anyone should be bothered by these discussions they deem unimportant.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Tue May 25, 2021 10:16 pm

Skar wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm My point was that there were some people who were quick to dismiss the criticism and make accusations of some double standard before we even knew the pre-production issues. There were people legitimately arguing that animation quality wasn't important and that it was acceptable. It was an example of how that logic never works to convince anyone because it's only seen as an excuse and having those complaints acknowledged and given an actual explanation was more effective. There's some criticism I've seen that I was willing to overlook based on circumstances surrounding the series like it being a revival, Toriyama not having worked on the series for decades, a whole new staff, etc.
And if you want to talk about that being stupid, because it is stupid, go right ahead. But I can't see how it relates to me calling it hypocritical when people judge one series for a thing that's just so typical for the series. You seem to be going after arguments in Super's favor that you consider unreasonable here, but I'm not making an argument in Super's favor here. Saying "power levels are bullshit" is dismissing every power scaling inconsistency in every Dragon Ball series, and I'm fine with that. So I'm struggling to see how the things you're saying relate to me if I'm not the guy doing the things you're talking about.
Skar wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm I mean that's fine if you want to draw the line there but we've already established multiple times that strict power levels are not what I'm discussing and that I agree those fans are a minority. I'm not really sure why you keep jumping back to that. I tried to clarify in almost every comment how someone could criticize a power-up without caring about exact power levels. I included retcons, out of character moments, or any other writing someone might criticize because I've seem them get the same kind of dismissive response that hasn't worked to discourage anyone from discussing them. Granted it is less often than a few years ago so it's one of those things that dies down with time I guess.
I'm bringing it up because you keep responding to me, and it's hard for me to discern just what the fuck you're talking about here, honestly. It's a little weird to see you explaining and explaining this alleged behavior that's oh-so unhelpful to discussion, that you seemingly equate with my own rhetoric, while you're also claiming I'm not doing it. I'm just trying to figure out what you expect me to do with all this dialogue.
Skar wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pm Could you point to me where I've asked you to care about power scaling or any of the other things I've mentioned? I also didn't say you needed to justify why you think something is unimportant since that's an opinion you're free to have.
Well, it sure as hell sounds like it, when you keep trying to paint pointing out a hypocrisy in criticism as somehow damaging rhetoric in discussion. The idea of equating calling it hypocritical to attack Super's power scaling and excuse Z's to calling it hypocritical to attack Super's animation but not Z's hinges on the idea that each of those pairs are inherently equivalent. But what I am saying is that if we treat power scaling as a legitimate concern, there's virtually no standard by which there's a significant difference in the consistency of Z and Super (in tandem with the endless digression of potential theories and loopholes for how gaining strength works in the series), and thus it's not a concern that we should treat as legitimate when brought up for either series. I can't see how this hurts discussion of Super in the way you're claiming it does. It's necessarily distinct from the animation, which besides being an actual part of the show, is a lot easier to actually track and measure in terms of how each episode's consistency and their respective staff match up, and an area where Z and Super are very much not equal.
Skar wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 9:16 pmI'm not sure what you meant by about the fan edits. Of course fan edits don't affect the official material but they're an option if someone wants to rewatch a shorter version and won't miss what was removed since they're usually listed. Not affecting the official material is a reason why I don't think anyone should be bothered by these discussions they deem unimportant.
Well, you seemed to be talking about how changes from fans that you thought were pointless but that which didn't additionally bother you was some measure of how little issue it would be if those changes had been there in the official material, but I was trying to communicate that that makes assumptions about the intentions behind editing in that manner and the way we consume fan material and how it differs from our view of official content.

And as for why this stuff annoys me, it's because it always manages to distract from more meaningful discussions of the story. I see all the time someone with a legitimate grievance about Super, only for things to spiral into a totally different (and sometimes completely chaotic) discussion when someone follows up that grievance about the series not lining up with their power level headcanon. I think it's kind of a pain to see you keep responding to this by saying "but what about a power up that isn't handled well for x other reason", because that's not what we're friggin' talking about.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Hulk10 » Tue May 25, 2021 11:40 pm

Shouldn't we all be polite and respectful?
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Skar » Wed May 26, 2021 12:03 am

Shaddy wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:16 pmWell, it sure as hell sounds like it, when you keep trying to paint pointing out a hypocrisy in criticism as somehow damaging rhetoric in discussion. The idea of equating calling it hypocritical to attack Super's power scaling and excuse Z's to calling it hypocritical to attack Super's animation but not Z's hinges on the idea that each of those pairs are inherently equivalent. But what I am saying is that if we treat power scaling as a legitimate concern, there's virtually no standard by which there's a significant difference in the consistency of Z and Super (in tandem with the endless digression of potential theories and loopholes for how gaining strength works in the series), and thus it's not a concern that we should treat as legitimate when brought up for either series. I can't see how this hurts discussion of Super in the way you're claiming it does. It's necessarily distinct from the animation, which besides being an actual part of the show, is a lot easier to actually track and measure in terms of how each episode's consistency and their respective staff match up, and an area where Z and Super are very much not equal.
I haven't even said you have to treat power scaling as a legitimate concern and only understand why anyone would want to discuss it. You're free to treat it as unimportant as you want but you're still claiming there's some hypocrisy so that's a form of what I was talking about. I still don't understand how this hypocrisy only applies to DBS since fans having been discussing power-ups or general inconsistencies and ways they could've been avoided or handled differently in literally every series official or not well before DBS began. The DBS anime ended three years ago but it's still being discussed for the manga and any fanwork that has come out since.

I'm also not saying that assuming hypocrisy is all that damaging rhetoric since it hasn't really damaged any discussion or what I'm assuming it set out to do. I would say it's more of an annoyance because some people legitimately assume it's going to work then surprised when someone points out why it doesn't or ignores it. I've seen it used very often so I just think at some point they have to try something else. The way some people respond it sounds like these discussions or suggestions hinders their enjoyment of the series to the point that they feel the need to shut them down. I'm saying it shouldn't if it's something they consider unimportant.
Well, you seemed to be talking about how changes from fans that you thought were pointless but that which didn't additionally bother you was some measure of how little issue it would be if those changes had been there in the official material, but I was trying to communicate that that makes assumptions about the intentions behind editing in that manner and the way we consume fan material and how it differs from our view of official content.
I can understand that but most fan edits explain what their intention is. The ones I've seen mentioned that they tried to reduce inconsistencies, unresolved plot threads, padding, etc. I still view the official material differently but I've already watched it so this is just an optional way to experience it again. I would still prefer to see an official recut of the series that follow Toriyama's outline more closely and have more time to work him to make it how he envisioned it.
And as for why this stuff annoys me, it's because it always manages to distract from more meaningful discussions of the story. I see all the time someone with a legitimate grievance about Super, only for things to spiral into a totally different (and sometimes completely chaotic) discussion when someone follows up that grievance about the series not lining up with their power level headcanon. I think it's kind of a pain to see you keep responding to this by saying "but what about a power up that isn't handled well for x other reason", because that's not what we're friggin' talking about.
Like I said, I haven't noticed this but I can understand if it causes threads to be derailed. I've only seen power scaling discussions kept to their own threads. When the DBS manga has a new chapter, the discussion on that thread is about plot developments and anyone who wants to discuss anything new revealed about a character's strength goes to that particular thread. In the General Franchise discussion, this thread about power scaling has been the only one I've seen in a while and only one on the first page.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Wed May 26, 2021 2:21 am

Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:03 am I haven't even said you have to treat power scaling as a legitimate concern and only understand why anyone would want to discuss it. You're free to treat it as unimportant as you want but you're still claiming there's some hypocrisy so that's a form of what I was talking about.
But it'd be hypocrisy if it were the reverse, too. So how is this specific to DBS?
Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:03 am I still don't understand how this hypocrisy only applies to DBS since fans having been discussing power-ups or general inconsistencies and ways they could've been avoided or handled differently in literally every series official or not well before DBS began. The DBS anime ended three years ago but it's still being discussed for the manga and any fanwork that has come out since.
Because it doesn't only apply to DBS, and I'm pretty sure I never implied that it did. If people treat DBS's power scaling as fine and the original series' as totally broken, that would be just as bad. That just doesn't happen as much.
Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:03 am I'm also not saying that assuming hypocrisy is all that damaging rhetoric since it hasn't really damaged any discussion or what I'm assuming it set out to do. I would say it's more of an annoyance because some people legitimately assume it's going to work then surprised when someone points out why it doesn't or ignores it. I've seen it used very often so I just think at some point they have to try something else.
Well, that assumes that you're coming into a discussion to make everyone believe the thing you do, and that everything you say has to be some airtight argument, instead of literally just saying and talking about the things you think. It doesn't always have to come pre-packaged with a mission statement.
Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:03 am The way some people respond it sounds like these discussions or suggestions hinders their enjoyment of the series to the point that they feel the need to shut them down. I'm saying it shouldn't if it's something they consider unimportant.
That equates the discourse with the subject of the discourse. A thing can be meaningless, and discussion of that thing and also be distracting or derailing.
Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:03 am I can understand that but most fan edits explain what their intention is. The ones I've seen mentioned that they tried to reduce inconsistencies, unresolved plot threads, padding, etc. I still view the official material differently but I've already watched it so this is just an optional way to experience it again. I would still prefer to see an official recut of the series that follow Toriyama's outline more closely and have more time to work him to make it how he envisioned it.
Okay? I guess that's fine? I was never trying to deny the existence of people caring about it.
Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:03 am Like I said, I haven't noticed this but I can understand if it causes threads to be derailed. I've only seen power scaling discussions kept to their own threads. When the DBS manga has a new chapter, the discussion on that thread is about plot developments and anyone who wants to discuss anything new revealed about a character's strength goes to that particular thread. In the General Franchise discussion, this thread about power scaling has been the only one I've seen in a while and only one on the first page.
Well, this forum has actual good moderation that guides users to separate places for power and story discussion (which, interesting that those are separated considering people call it "bad writing" when they don't like a character's strength level), but the rest of the net is a vast jungle of wackiness.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Skar » Wed May 26, 2021 12:14 pm

Shaddy wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 2:21 amBecause it doesn't only apply to DBS, and I'm pretty sure I never implied that it did. If people treat DBS's power scaling as fine and the original series' as totally broken, that would be just as bad. That just doesn't happen as much.
Why does there need to be assumed there's hypocrisy at all when these discussions have existed before. Some believed Toriyama's writing became sloppier and had more inconsistencies after the Freeza saga because he was burned out. There were similar complaints about GT like the staff might've been burned out after a decade long run and trying to extent the series a little while longer. DBS has circumstances that could affect some writing decisions that differ from the original series. It's Toriyama's first time writing for the series in decades and he's only making a brief outline while a team of new writers are adding their own ideas each episode. If a fan feels it's not something Toriyama would've written, sometimes he isn't the one who came up with it. There's usually less criticism for the DBS movies than either the manga or anime at least from me and what I've seen which could be due to them being mostly having one writer. I think fans are more willing to accept something by considering the circumstances of why they happened than being accused you don't feel is true and only see as an excuse.
Well, that assumes that you're coming into a discussion to make everyone believe the thing you do, and that everything you say has to be some airtight argument, instead of literally just saying and talking about the things you think. It doesn't always have to come pre-packaged with a mission statement.
Well what's usually the goal of making accusations of hypocrisy? It's to discredit someone's argument and attempt to put an end to the discussion. Like I've said, it's not just power scaling because I've seen it attempted when any kind of criticism is given. It's implying they have some ulterior motive when someone jumps to the conclusion that they're singling out DBS and these can't possibly be their honest opinions or that they've never given this type of criticism before for any other part of the series.
Well, this forum has actual good moderation that guides users to separate places for power and story discussion (which, interesting that those are separated considering people call it "bad writing" when they don't like a character's strength level), but the rest of the net is a vast jungle of wackiness.
I said in an earlier comment that I avoid other fandoms but that also includes other sites to discuss DB since is this the only fandom forum I visit. This is the largest DB forum with the most knowledgeable fans and mods about everything having to do with the franchise so I don't feel the need to discuss the series somewhere else. At the end of the day, the series exists whether we discuss it or not so I rather leave a site if I don't like the tone and not having any fun engaging with those people.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Wed May 26, 2021 5:56 pm

Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:14 pm Why does there need to be assumed there's hypocrisy at all when these discussions have existed before.
Because they haven't. If they did, I wouldn't be saying anything. Again, if someone treats Z's scaling with the same scrutiny they do Super, that's not who I'm talking about. You keep speaking as if I'm necessarily equating hypocrisy with any inherent criticism of Super, when it's really two steps removed, power scaling (a meaningless thing) and double-standards (people who think it matters saying Super's scaling is bad and Z's is flawless). Again, I don't know what you expect me to do with criticism of a behavior I'm neither talking about nor participating in.
Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:14 pm Well what's usually the goal of making accusations of hypocrisy? It's to discredit someone's argument and attempt to put an end to the discussion.
Uh, says who? Pointing out hypocrisy can serve a lot of ends, making people reexamine their own takes or signal to others with similar arguments why it might be flawed. Neither is necessarily an attempt to silence people. I mean, just look at us here! We've gone on with this crap for like four or five pages now.
Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 12:14 pm Like I've said, it's not just power scaling because I've seen it attempted when any kind of criticism is given. It's implying they have some ulterior motive when someone jumps to the conclusion that they're singling out DBS and these can't possibly be their honest opinions or that they've never given this type of criticism before for any other part of the series.
Okaaaay, so then those times, it's bad. I don't know what to tell you, man. I'm not defending it in other less-stupid contexts than power levels.

But also, you should apply criticisms consistently, I don't think there's a reason someone shouldn't be allowed to suggest that no matter what the context is. You'd have to actually verify that someone does in fact treat each part of the series with the same amount of scrutiny for that argument to be truly bad. And yes, someone making that argument would look like a doofus if they turned out to be wrong, which is why I'm not doing that.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Skar » Wed May 26, 2021 11:17 pm

Shaddy wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 5:56 pmBecause they haven't. If they did, I wouldn't be saying anything. Again, if someone treats Z's scaling with the same scrutiny they do Super, that's not who I'm talking about. You keep speaking as if I'm necessarily equating hypocrisy with any inherent criticism of Super, when it's really two steps removed, power scaling (a meaningless thing) and double-standards (people who think it matters saying Super's scaling is bad and Z's is flawless). Again, I don't know what you expect me to do with criticism of a behavior I'm neither talking about nor participating in.
How would you know they haven't? Discussions about the original series long before DBS show that it's been criticized for years including comparing it to other shonen series and how they handled certain concepts better. I've never seen anyone claim anything about it was flawless. Some might exist but they probably wouldn't be the type of diehard fan who would be interested in discussing the series in depth online since they would've seen all the criticizing it has received over the years.
Uh, says who? Pointing out hypocrisy can serve a lot of ends, making people reexamine their own takes or signal to others with similar arguments why it might be flawed. Neither is necessarily an attempt to silence people. I mean, just look at us here! We've gone on with this crap for like four or five pages now.
That could happen if someone is proven to be a hypocrite and then called out for it. Generally, immediately accusing someone of being a hypocrite online when you know nothing about them is meant to discredit their argument. In most of examples of hypocrisy, there's something to gain since it's not a good trait to have. There's nothing really to gain by being a fan of a series and only hypocritical towards part of it.
But also, you should apply criticisms consistently, I don't think there's a reason someone shouldn't be allowed to suggest that no matter what the context is. You'd have to actually verify that someone does in fact treat each part of the series with the same amount of scrutiny for that argument to be truly bad. And yes, someone making that argument would look like a doofus if they turned out to be wrong, which is why I'm not doing that.
There's no way to really verify if someone has criticizing the series before unless you can look through their post history or something but they usually mention it when accused. It shouldn't be a requirement to have to review your criticism of the original series before giving your opinion on a continuation or spin-off in order to avoid being accused of hypocrisy though. When it comes to criticism of a popular franchise, there might only be so many possible opinions out there. If ten fans happen to have share the same opinion on a certain topic, somehow proving one is a hypocrite wouldn't invalidate the opinions of the other nine.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Thu May 27, 2021 4:03 am

Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 11:17 pm How would you know they haven't?
Because I am talking about the scenario in which the person in question literally hasn't. If they had, I wouldn't be complaining as if they hadn't. You're the one supplying the idea that this would only happen to people that already treat Z and Super with equal amounts of scrutiny.
Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 11:17 pm That could happen if someone is proven to be a hypocrite and then called out for it. Generally, immediately accusing someone of being a hypocrite online when you know nothing about them is meant to discredit their argument.
Okay, but that's a thing that I'm neither doing nor defending, again. It seems like you are deliberately constructing a scenario where an opinion being called hypocritical is done in bad faith and trying to assert that that is the only context said argument can be made in.
Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 11:17 pm In most of examples of hypocrisy, there's something to gain since it's not a good trait to have. There's nothing really to gain by being a fan of a series and only hypocritical towards part of it.
Well, yeah, if you're operating on the basis of logic, cause and effect and so on, but that's not what opinions on art are about. There's no goal in thinking the things you think about a TV show.
Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 11:17 pm There's no way to really verify if someone has criticizing the series before unless you can look through their post history or something but they usually mention it when accused.
Okay, so it sounds like what you're actually taking issue with is calling people hypocrites when they aren't hypocrites, then. If you had conveyed that earlier, we could have saved a lot of time, namely because that's an obvious and mostly-unrelated thing I would have no reason to even respond to.
Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 11:17 pmIt shouldn't be a requirement to have to review your criticism of the original series before giving your opinion on a continuation or spin-off in order to avoid being accused of hypocrisy though.
I'm not saying it's a requirement, but I don't think it's so evil to expect some amount of consistency when someone tries to tell me why the thing I like sucks, especially if the reason doesn't hold up. And obviously, there are endless reasons one person might believe a different thing from one series to another, but they're not all equal, and to just say "nobody can question me on this" seems a bit hostile to examining those reasons.
Skar wrote: Wed May 26, 2021 11:17 pm When it comes to criticism of a popular franchise, there might only be so many possible opinions out there. If ten fans happen to have share the same opinion on a certain topic, somehow proving one is a hypocrite wouldn't invalidate the opinions of the other nine.
If nine people say that Dragon Ball's power scaling is bullshit across the entire franchise and then one guy says only Super's is bullshit (a thing that, contrary to what you seem to think, plenty of people say), then that guy doesn't share the same opinion as the others.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by super michael » Thu May 27, 2021 10:54 am

There is Granola that made his wish to be the stronger in the Universe, by sacrificing his life span he is now the strongest. What do you think of his gain? In my opinion I think it is great, that like Granola doing the best and hardest possible training for 147 years, which is his gain and new skills.

Basically think of it like Future Gohan and Present Gohan. Future Gohan was weak since the best fighters to train him were dead, while Present Gohan had Piccolo (Nail fused), Goku and then the ROSAT to train in.

Gohan is prove how training with the best can make a huge difference, while training without the best would result in lower gains.

I would say DB/DBZ makes more sense in power gain and power scaling than DBS.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Skar » Thu May 27, 2021 12:45 pm

Shaddy wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 4:03 amOkay, but that's a thing that I'm neither doing nor defending, again. It seems like you are deliberately constructing a scenario where an opinion being called hypocritical is done in bad faith and trying to assert that that is the only context said argument can be made in.
Well it's only context I've seen when someone is immediately accused of hypocrisy over an opinion of a fictional series. It was attempted occasionally with GT, fanwork, or other franchises but I've never seen those work to convince someone to see the truth or reevaluate their opinion. It's usually always considered as an excuse, they point out that they're not being hypocritical, and continue on with the discussion.
Well, yeah, if you're operating on the basis of logic, cause and effect and so on, but that's not what opinions on art are about. There's no goal in thinking the things you think about a TV show.
That's what I'm saying. There is usually no goal if someone goes out of their way to express their opinion about a series they like online other than expressing that opinion. In examples of actual hypocrisy, I think there's usually some goal or motive. If you like a series and the author, you usually wouldn't have a reason to hold other work he's involved in to a different standard.
I'm not saying it's a requirement, but I don't think it's so evil to expect some amount of consistency when someone tries to tell me why the thing I like sucks, especially if the reason doesn't hold up. And obviously, there are endless reasons one person might believe a different thing from one series to another, but they're not all equal, and to just say "nobody can question me on this" seems a bit hostile to examining those reasons.
I don't think I've ever said you can't question them. Saying "someone tries to tell me why the thing I like sucks" I think takes some of the criticism personally. From what I've seen, the fans still around discussing DBS at this point don't think the entire thing sucks and only discussing the specific moments that they think could've been improved or hope improve in later arcs.

I enjoyed DBS: Broly and considered one of my favorite movies in the franchise or might eventually be my favorite. There were some fans who thought it was pointless fan service, didn't achieve what it set out to do, or something about the movie didn't make sense to them and think should've been handled differently. I don't take these personally because they don't attack my own opinion of the movie. It's fair to question them but I think at some point I have to agree to disagree because there isn't much I could offer to change their opinions. The last thing I would do is accuse them of any form of hypocrisy because that's the absolute least likely argument to change their opinion.
If nine people say that Dragon Ball's power scaling is bullshit across the entire franchise and then one guy says only Super's is bullshit (a thing that, contrary to what you seem to think, plenty of people say), then that guy doesn't share the same opinion as the others.
I mean those are two differing opinions. If someone is saying that all of DBS's is bullshit then you're free to tell them that you think all of it is BS across the franchise. Someone who care about power scaling usually only disagrees with specific cases in DBS. If they don't mind most of it and only discussing a few cases, jumping in to accuse them that they're declaring the whole thing is bullshit is going to have the same result as accusing them of hypocrisy when they're not doing it.
super michael wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 10:54 amThere is Granola that made his wish to be the stronger in the Universe, by sacrificing his life span he is now the strongest. What do you think of his gain? In my opinion I think it is great, that like Granola doing the best and hardest possible training for 147 years, which is his gain and new skills.
I liked it and reminded me of the conditions in HxH. It's always something I've wondered about in the original series and what would happen if someone tried to wish to be stronger. I think there could other consequences aside from shortening his lifespan that are revealed later or different conditions depending on the individual if one of the villains tries the same wish.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Thu May 27, 2021 2:27 pm

Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 12:45 pm Well it's only context I've seen when someone is immediately accused of hypocrisy over an opinion of a fictional series. It was attempted occasionally with GT, fanwork, or other franchises but I've never seen those work to convince someone to see the truth or reevaluate their opinion. It's usually always considered as an excuse, they point out that they're not being hypocritical, and continue on with the discussion.
Okay, so if you treat someone pointing out hypocrisy as having an ulterior motive, but also acknowledge it never works, is it maybe possible that it's not actually intended the way you think it is?
Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 12:45 pm That's what I'm saying. There is usually no goal if someone goes out of their way to express their opinion about a series they like online other than expressing that opinion. In examples of actual hypocrisy, I think there's usually some goal or motive. If you like a series and the author, you usually wouldn't have a reason to hold other work he's involved in to a different standard.
But that's making your own accusation, isn't it? You're essentially saying that anyone who uses this rhetoric you don't like is doing it in bad faith, and nobody could possibly have flawed reasoning for treating two things differently.
Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 12:45 pm I don't think I've ever said you can't question them. Saying "someone tries to tell me why the thing I like sucks" I think takes some of the criticism personally. From what I've seen, the fans still around discussing DBS at this point don't think the entire thing sucks and only discussing the specific moments that they think could've been improved or hope improve in later arcs.
I think I'd have to admit power scaling was somehow a legitimate critique to be offended by it as a criticism. I don't like GT at all, and saying power scaling was what was wrong with that show is just as incorrect.
Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 12:45 pm I enjoyed DBS: Broly and considered one of my favorite movies in the franchise or might eventually be my favorite. There were some fans who thought it was pointless fan service, didn't achieve what it set out to do, or something about the movie didn't make sense to them and think should've been handled differently. I don't take these personally because they don't attack my own opinion of the movie. It's fair to question them but I think at some point I have to agree to disagree because there isn't much I could offer to change their opinions. The last thing I would do is accuse them of any form of hypocrisy because that's the absolute least likely argument to change their opinion.
Calling something hypocritical and agreeing to disagree aren't mutually exclusive. People can have their own opinions and those opinions can be poorly-founded. It's not the job of someone with one opinion to change the minds of the others, and if you keep saying it never succeeds at this, then it's foolish to assume that that was the intent in the first place.
Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 12:45 pm I mean those are two differing opinions. If someone is saying that all of DBS's is bullshit then you're free to tell them that you think all of it is BS across the franchise.
That...is what I have been doing this whole time. Do you think I'm just going around to anyone with one or two instances of a thing not making sense to them and shouting "hypocrite!" like that wins the entire argument? If so, that seems like a strawman on your part.
Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 12:45 pm Someone who care about power scaling usually only disagrees with specific cases in DBS. If they don't mind most of it and only discussing a few cases, jumping in to accuse them that they're declaring the whole thing is bullshit is going to have the same result as accusing them of hypocrisy when they're not doing it.
Okay, sure, in this hypothetical scenario you've constructed where the person I'm arguing with has a different opinion than the one I'm arguing against here, then yes, the fake version of me that's making an argument I'm not making in a place where I never said it was warranted, I'd be in the wrong. We are all completely blown away by this stunning revelation.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Skar » Thu May 27, 2021 4:18 pm

Shaddy wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 2:27 pmOkay, so if you treat someone pointing out hypocrisy as having an ulterior motive, but also acknowledge it never works, is it maybe possible that it's not actually intended the way you think is?
You said it could lead to people reexamining their opinion which I agreed could happen if they're proven to be hypocritical. The way you described these discussions continuing on other sites you visit made me think you weren't getting these results.
But that's making your own accusation, isn't it? You're essentially saying that anyone who uses this rhetoric you don't like is doing it in bad faith, and nobody could possibly have flawed reasoning for treating two things differently.
People could definitely have flawed reasoning in instances of actual hypocrisy. The original author being involved is usually treated as a point in its favor since fans are more accepting even if they have criticism so I'm still surprised there could DB fans who have a double standards towards it. From what I've seen, it's applying the same standard to the original and everything DB that came out after the manga ended.
I think I'd have to admit power scaling was somehow a legitimate critique to be offended by it as a criticism. I don't like GT at all, and saying power scaling was what was wrong with that show is just as incorrect.
Ok I just wasn't sure why you mentioned a "someone tries to tell me a show I like sucks". I got the impression that it affected you personally so I thought it would help showing how someone telling me what I liked sucked didn't affect me.
That...is what I have been doing this whole time. Do you think I'm just going around to anyone with one or two instances of a thing not making sense to them and shouting "hypocrite!" like that wins the entire argument? If so, that seems like a strawman on your part.
Well I gave a some examples to explain why someone could only disagree with a someone power-ups without being obsessed with power levels but it sounded like you were treating them all the same. I could be remembering wrong but you started talking about potential hypocrisy when I was pointing out only those few examples.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Thu May 27, 2021 5:10 pm

Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 4:18 pmYou said it could lead to people reexamining their opinion which I agreed could happen if they're proven to be hypocritical. The way you described these discussions continuing on other sites you visit made me think you weren't getting these results.
I am not getting many results of any sort, I stay away from these discussions when they're not invading other ones I'm trying to have. Hence, pointing out how hypocritical a lot of power-scale crap can be can both have an effect, and I don't have any particular intent to change their minds.
Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 4:18 pmPeople could definitely have flawed reasoning in instances of actual hypocrisy.
Okay, so why just assume that when I say there are instances of actual hypocrisy, that I'm not talking about actual hypocrisy?
Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 4:18 pm The original author being involved is usually treated as a point in its favor since fans are more accepting even if they have criticism so I'm still surprised there could DB fans who have a double standards towards it. From what I've seen, it's applying the same standard to the original and everything DB that came out after the manga ended.
Okay, that's just as bad, then. Do you think I wouldn't think that? Dragon Ball things are not better or worse depending on who works on them, but by whether those people are good. The trend for Toriyama's things to be better are because he's still good at certain things that other people aren't, not because he's the creator.
Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 4:18 pm Well I gave a some examples to explain why someone could only disagree with a someone power-ups without being obsessed with power levels but it sounded like you were treating them all the same. I could be remembering wrong but you started talking about potential hypocrisy when I was pointing out only those few examples.
Because from the start I was tackling overly-exaggerated criticisms from people just being annoying, so when you respond to me making a point in defense of a different but similar opinion without really explaining the distinction between that and the thing I was talking about without telling me, it sure looks like you're defending across-the-board dismissal of Super on the basis of power scaling with no regard for other DB stories.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Skar » Thu May 27, 2021 8:04 pm

Shaddy wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 5:10 pmI am not getting many results of any sort, I stay away from these discussions when they're not invading other ones I'm trying to have. Hence, pointing out how hypocritical a lot of power-scale crap can be can both have an effect, and I don't have any particular intent to change their minds.
Well this was a thread with power scaling in the title but you joined and it wasn't invading a current discussion you were having. I assumed you might've ocassionally entered these discussions on other sites to call them out. What's the benefit of discussing the series on those sites if people derail random threads to talk about power scaling? I just think if it's mostly frustration from these other sites why not spend that time on here since it's more organized and these people keep to their own threads. That way if you want to talk about power scaling at all then you could visit those threads and not have to worry about them trying to derailing unrelated discussions. The more unreasonable types get banned fairly quickly on here while some sites let them stick around for a while. Some sites might never ban them at all and it's only when they're bored discussing a series they hate that they leave.
Okay, so why just assume that when I say there are instances of actual hypocrisy, that I'm not talking about actual hypocrisy?
The way you were describing it sounded like you haven't seen this same criticism used before which I think is usually the case when someone joined the forum around the time DBS began. What is assumed to be hypocrisy only for DBS has been the same standard applied to everything else DB since before they joined. I'm not denying it doesn't exist but if I haven't witnessed it in all the time I've been on the forum then I don't think it could be enough to warrant how often this accusation is used.
Because from the start I was tackling overly-exaggerated criticisms from people just being annoying, so when you respond to me making a point in defense of a different but similar opinion without really explaining the distinction between that and the thing I was talking about without telling me, it sure looks like you're defending across-the-board dismissal of Super on the basis of power scaling with no regard for other DB stories.
It was a long discussion so some points might've been lost along the way. In my first response, I'm pretty sure I agreed fans obsessed with power levels were a minority and most fans who criticize with certain power-ups is because they feel these contradict something from the original series that could've been avoided. They're not making some judgement over the entire series since it's usually the same few powerups that are being criticized. To show it wasn't exclusive to DBS, I pointed out how these types of power-ups involving returning characters were treated in fanwork but that those fan authors usually acknowledge they were different than what Toriyama has done in the original series.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Fri May 28, 2021 12:00 am

Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 8:04 pm Well this was a thread with power scaling in the title but you joined and it wasn't invading a current discussion you were having. I assumed you might've ocassionally entered these discussions on other sites to call them out.
When I joined this discussion, it wasn't really to point that out. I was simply responding to banned friend saying "I may be nitpicking..." by assuring him that it's all nitpick, so why worry.
Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 8:04 pm I just think if it's mostly frustration from these other sites why not spend that time on here since it's more organized and these people keep to their own threads. That way if you want to talk about power scaling at all then you could visit those threads and not have to worry about them trying to derailing unrelated discussions. The more unreasonable types get banned fairly quickly on here while some sites let them stick around for a while. Some sites might never ban them at all and it's only when they're bored discussing a series they hate that they leave.
Well, by and large this is still largely a break with tradition for me. I mostly got into the thick of it because the guy turned into an asshole, and I admit, I do like baiting assholes into saying self-incriminating things.
Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 8:04 pm The way you were describing it sounded like you haven't seen this same criticism used before which I think is usually the case when someone joined the forum around the time DBS began.
I've seen most criticisms before, though I didn't even watch Super until long after I joined.
Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 8:04 pm What is assumed to be hypocrisy only for DBS has been the same standard applied to everything else DB since before they joined. I'm not denying it doesn't exist but if I haven't witnessed it in all the time I've been on the forum then I don't think it could be enough to warrant how often this accusation is used.
Well I can't control other people, but you may notice I do not pathologically comment things like this here. I guess this is just one area where we'll have to agree to disagree.
Skar wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 8:04 pm It was a long discussion so some points might've been lost along the way. In my first response, I'm pretty sure I agreed fans obsessed with power levels were a minority and most fans who criticize with certain power-ups is because they feel these contradict something from the original series that could've been avoided. They're not making some judgement over the entire series since it's usually the same few powerups that are being criticized. To show it wasn't exclusive to DBS, I pointed out how these types of power-ups involving returning characters were treated in fanwork but that those fan authors usually acknowledge they were different than what Toriyama has done in the original series.
And what I've been saying this whole time is that I cannot rationally connect that type of discourse with people who, when discussing the franchise as a whole, say "Super is bad because none of it's power scaling makes any sense", which like it or not, I have seen here plenty of times. I think that the way a powerup is handled is distinct from being really angry at the fact that a character has reached a certain strength, because the latter comes with a lack of real regard for whether it makes mechanical or thematic sense for such a thing to occur. You may say it's a minority, you're probably right, but it's a vocal minority, and an annoying one. I do not see the point in conflating that with me seemingly attacking any criticism of Super's power-ups as hypocritical, because I'd then have to attack every power-up in the entire franchise to not be guilty of the exact thing I'm talking about.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by super michael » Fri May 28, 2021 6:13 am

Here something that doesn’t make sense Future Gohan despite his years training, he never surpassed C17 & C18 who are weaker than Cell 1st form.

The humans with their training surpassed SS3 Gotenks, at least in the anime version.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 29, 2021 10:28 am

super michael wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 6:13 am The humans with their training surpassed SS3 Gotenks, at least in the anime version.
Care to elaborate on that? This is the first time I’m seeing someone having this thought.

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