How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

[Anonymous Friend]

From the very beginning of Z, it's had some bonkers power scaling. Goku and Piccolo vs Raditz, the former duo completely outclassed and the only reason the fight took as long as it did was because Raditz was toying with them and Goku's a dumbass.

One year later and the crew is around the level of Raditz and somewhat higher and getting wrecked by Nappa soloing everyone (he clearly didn't need the saibamen's help). And Vegeta's even stronger than that. Vegeta basically solos Goku, Gohan, Krillin, and the Gohan Oozaru and still leaves on him own strength.

Namek has Vegeta beating Dadoria, getting beaten by Zardon, beating Zardon, then everyone getting beat by the Ginyu, and Goku coming in and beating the Ginyu. At least the latter half of those fights came down to a lot of trickery and switching arounds.

Later we have Piccolo and Nail, who would have been/was curbstomped solo, fusing and taking on the 2nd Freeza form. No reall complaints about that or the numerous zenkia boosts and awakned energy being handled out through the arc. Nor the Super Saiyan transfermation Those are all story elements, but it does cause a lot of flipflopping shenanigans.

Andriod saga is where it crumbles though.

Super saiyans beat Freeza, and also 19 and 20. But 17 and 18 beat super saiyans and a not yet super namekian. Easily. Super namekians beats early 1st form cell and stalemates 17 But they both get beat by a 1st form Cell that has eaten a crazy amount of people. While not a sound defeat, just enough to tricksy him into obsorbing 17. Vegeta and Trunks train for a year and can soundly defeat a 2nd form Cell. Cell gets 18 and is Perfect and can solo the entire cast He even makes tiny clone/babies of himself that can also wreck everyone easily. And they all are only beaten due to Gohan's powerup to SSJ2.

Don't get me wrong the rollercoaster ride that is the entire arc is fantastic. But it is a lot of back and forth with power ups and "training" as the only real explanation to growth. And everytime there's a revral, it seems like a substantal increase because they all lead to massive curbstomps.

Super tried to reduce the distance and make everyone a threat. No one should have really been worried about Freeza because 18 had defeated SSJs who easily defeated Freeza. Piccolo was at a point where he could have defeat an android that had defeated a super saiyan that had defeated Freeza.

Super also tried adding in "wierd" powers as a way to not always do the "just need to be stronger" And that seemed to work until they decided that Giren was going to be more of the "more power".

[Hypersayian]

Actually, what devalues a character's work is judging anything that doesn't fit into some random hierarchy of power you made up as "innately bad" and ignoring what the story actually being presented to you is. You're basically complaining that it doesn't fit into your headcanon, it has nothing to do with what is actually true in the series and never has.

Why are characters only allowed to be strong or relevant when random online bros say they are?

I wrote a few examples which show why consistency and powerscaling matters.You choose to ignore these but I would love to hear your reasoning on them so here again:

I doubt people would NOT have cared if Captain America had beaten Thanos after 4 months of training

I doubt people would NOT have cared if Thor had wiped out Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet after getting another powerup

Or look at Star Wars - many people didnt like Rey because she just magically got from below Padawan to high Jedi Knight level within a single week with less than a few hours of "training". People who saw Luke and Anakin struggle to achieve their power were just suspended in disbelief at this development and didnt like the movies/the main character. Because consistency and powerscaling matters for a good story.

Now if "nothing matters" if all rules and consistency can be thrown out of the window for the sake of the story - why didnt people like the new SW trilogy? How would people have reacted to 4 month training Cap beating Thanos or Thor wrecking Infinity gauntlet Thanos after one powerup? Would the story have been better with these unprecedented jumps with bs explanations or worse?

[VegettoEX]

As long as we’re repeating ourselves, none of that stuff matters or is interesting to me in the least and it does not even remotely factor into my assessment of the material.

[Hypersayian]

none of that stuff matters or is interesting to me in the least and it does not even remotely factor into my assessment of the material.

Well I disagree - see the SW and Avengers example - but I doubt I will change your opinion - so have a nice day.

[goku the krump dancer]

The only real power issue I had with Super thus far is that Zamasu kept getting zenkais every time he took a hit, that's not how they've ever worked and yet they let it happen like 6 times lol. It made sense after his first little skirmish with Goku in the past because his soul was still adjusting to the new body and Goku's muscle memory hadn't fully kicked in just yet but everything after than had me rolling my eyes.

I also hate the leaps in power 17 and Freeza got but there was no other way to keep them relevant and the explanation makes in-universe sense, but it does kinda devalue everything Goku and Vegeta put themselves through, if all Boo has to do is spend the day in the Room of Spirit and Time once and he'd be able to flat line anybody.

[super michael]

If the writers don't want to look lazy in how they make their characters gain power, then they shouldn't be lazy. The writers should be creative and make us audience say "wow look at that creative training" or "wow look how intense that training is, I wonder how strong they will get after their training", etc.

When I hear Freeza, the humans, cyborgs, Gohan, Piccolo, etc, training it me go "OMG how lazy they shouldn't make that huge gain.

Anonymous Friend in DBZ while the gains were huge, they at least were creative in how they got strong. They even used magic in rare times. They explained how they got strong, which is something we only see with Goku and Vegeta.

[VegettoEX]

That’s not “lazy.”

You just personally don’t like the explanations given.

I think the Tournament of Power is terrible in literally every respect, but “lazy” is not a word I would use to describe it, even when it comes to story crafting.

I also find it hard to imagine enjoying the 2018 film, but again, “lazy” is the last word I would toss its way.

Can we please do a little better in this respect?

[super michael]

That’s not “lazy.”

You just personally don’t like the explanations given.

I think the Tournament of Power is terrible in literally every respect, but “lazy” is not a word I would use to describe it, even when it comes to story crafting.

I also find it hard to imagine enjoying the 2018 film, but again, “lazy” is the last word I would toss its way.

Can we please do a little better in this respect?

I guess lazy is the wrong word to use in this case, what would be the better word to use? I will stop saying lazy.

[Hugo Boss]

I don’t think one should take issue with any power-up that had no precedent. I’m talking about Freeza, 17, Broly, Boo and any character that wasn’t developed in that sense. They all have particular traits that simply don’t need to follow the same pattern as Goku and company. Not to mention harsh training doesn’t necessarily correlate with efficient training.

Besides, it’s a recurring theme on Dragon Ball how Gohan and Trunks have prodigious gains in comparison to their fathers, doing very little to keep up with them. Piccolo is also a Namekian prodigy and his gains usually are dependent on his sparring partner. The fact that he didn’t have noticeable gains before Super could be attributed to lack of a regular training and good training partner.

In another hand, old-school characters like Roshi or Krillin never demonstrated the ability to surpass Super Saiyan in a meaningful way. So, perhaps this is where the discussion becomes more reasonable. They certainly don’t have the strength to beat them in an all-out battle, but they can take advantage of rules and manage to win somehow. Goku almost defeated Jiren using a strategy Krillin showed him.

[VegettoEX]

I think if you find yourself stuck looking for a single word to sum up your feelings on something, maybe you’re not equipped to really get into it. And that’s OK. Lord knows I’m a terrible critic and find it difficult to articulate why I do or do not like things sometimes (most of the time).

I think it does both yourself and the artists a disservice to be all “lol lazy!” That doesn’t say anything. Words have meaning, and they’re important.

Go a little deeper. The WHAT that you don’t like isn’t important. What’s the WHY behind what you FEEL? You’ll get to a deeper place of understanding, and be able to effectively communicate it, if you go that route.

For me, the strength stuff just doesn’t even rank. What attracted me to the series was the brilliance of the spectacle, and then later the inter-character moments. It’s not even that I’m “overlooking” strength disparities in favor of other things; I literally don’t actually care if they make sense, and in fact, welcome shake ups and insanity if it makes for better character moments and dialog. Those are the elements that keep me a fan all these years later. Those are the things I’m looking for.

And so for example, the Turtle Hermit’s demonstration of proto-UI was amazing to me, because it was THEMATICALLY consistent with prior material dating all the way back to training with Popo, and I loved how they pulled it all back around again with those direct references. That’s the stuff they gives me chills. That’s what reminds me why I love these characters.

Versus Jiren? So what? Let him swing away. Shit’s dope.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Who exactly is claiming that, though?

[LoganForkHands73]

It always feels utterly bizarre going back to the very earliest comic chapters, back when the fledgling media empire was running lewd humour like an HBO show, when a lecherous talking pig was being blackmailed by a perpetually horny teen genius popping him a diarrhoea-on-command roofie... And you just sit back and think... this is the comic that spawned a million battleboard threads debating powerscaling and all that jazz?

Like, I do understand the fascination with powerscaling. The series did kinda embrace the one-upmanship of fights towards the end as Toriyama got burned out, because that's what he thought people wanted to see. Piccolo beats Cell, Cell beats Piccolo, #16 beats Cell, Cell beats #16, etc. Maybe he was right? Though even with the serious fighting, there's usually some bizarre leaps in logic. Gohan gets an unbelievable power boost, enough to match Buu, after sitting cross-legged while a pervy ten-million-year-old god (who just happened to have been trapped in a sword for some reason) waves his hands around in his face for 25+ hours. Yeah, it's a "potential unlock" thing, but Gohan already had one of those way back on Namek. Does it really make logical sense? No, but that's willing suspension of disbelief. Android #17's godly power boost, it's a wee bit far fetched, but then again island ranging is busy work. It leads to some great character moments throughout the Tournament of Power, that's the important thing.

The hardcore fandom's need for rigidity and order as Shaddy says, the "dimensional power tiering" you see on VS Battles Wiki, it often feels antithetical to the nature of Dragon Ball, don't you think? It's a silly, silly series about great characters and action. I do think most people understand that, but there's the vocal minority who see Dragon Ball as nothing but mathematics. Usually bad maths at that.

[Shaddy]

We know in DB/DBZ the Z fighters did hard training, there is no headcanon about that. In DBS only Goku and Vegeta does hard training, while everyone is lazy, however the lazy training makes huge gains.

In DB/DBZ to make huge gain required hard training.

You don't get to objectively decide what counts as "lazy", but this is also wrong. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan receive Deus Ex Machina powerups all the time in Z too. That's the entire point of the zenkai. Don't even get me started on Goten and Trunks.

It's all on you, frankly. If Super's five arcs had aired right after the Buu saga, you'd be defending their power scaling just as hard when compared to whatever other new content, because it's a meaningless discussion.

If you want to talk about pacing, themes, plot, characters or tone, that stuff actually matters when constructing a story. I'm not going to pretend I don't understand what's happening on-screen just because Krillin isn't 100% acting according to some numbers I read online that none of the creative staff have ever cared about.

It is insulting to the intelligence of both creators and fans to suggest that any of this is what determines whether storytelling is good or bad in a TV or comic series.

I wrote a few examples which show why consistency and powerscaling matters.

You wrote a few things you think show that they matter, actually. They don't. Let's look:

I doubt people would NOT have cared if Captain America had beaten Thanos after 4 months of training

I doubt people would NOT have cared if Thor had wiped out Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet after getting another powerup

Who's "people"? People who are already predisposed to agreeing with you might care, but like with Dragon Ball, that's not what creates success for that series.

And uh...no. No? Who would care? There's zero inherent problems with the things you said, it's all in the execution.

The core of those movies, and of Dragon Ball, is not based in forcing writers to follow rigid power mechanics to appease people arguing about semantic bullshit on the internet. I bet people could point out thousands power scaling problems that already exist in the MCU, that you just happen to not notice or care about, and which is just as valid as you think yours with Super are. Which is to say, again, none of it matters.

Do you know how many way bigger problems there are with Marvel films and Dragon Ball than fucking power levels? Why the hell would this be the hill to die on?

Or look at Star Wars - many people didnt like Rey because she just magically got from below Padawan to high Jedi Knight level within a single week with less than a few hours of "training". People who saw Luke and Anakin struggle to achieve their power were just suspended in disbelief at this development and didnt like the movies/the main character. Because consistency and powerscaling matters for a good story.

Not really. Rey only had like one fight, that's not a very good judge of strength, and she barely used the force in it. Luke and Anakin were both magically gifted, the latter being a virgin birth who destroyed an entire trade federation base as a nine year-old piloting a ship he had never even seen before. Internet dudebros will rationalize this but not anything Rey does, no matter how much training is thrust upon her. I can't imagine why.

These arguments can be made endlessly for both sides, both ways. They will never matter.

Now if "nothing matters" if all rules and consistency can be thrown out of the window for the sake of the story - why didnt people like the new SW trilogy?

Certainly not for the excuses you just gave. And again, who counts as "people"? Is it critics or fans?

In a few years when Star Wars episodes 10-12 are coming out, there will be people calling the new protagonist a mary-sue (especially if it's a woman, let's be honest) and wishing we could go back to "the good old days" of 7-9. It is going to happen. It will happen. Are you going to be so conceited as to pretend you have the "right" opinion because you still don't like them?

How would people have reacted to 4 month training Cap beating Thanos or Thor wrecking Infinity gauntlet Thanos after one powerup? Would the story have been better with these unprecedented jumps with bs explanations or worse?

I'm pretty sure if the movie was good, they'd still think it was good no matter what actually happened in it. You're making up imaginary reasons why the thing you're saying would be bad, and asserting that those problems are inherent to that thing just because you personally don't like it.

[super michael]

You don't get to objectively decide what counts as "lazy", but this is also wrong. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan receive Deus Ex Machina powerups all the time in Z too. That's the entire point of the zenkai. Don't even get me started on Goten and Trunks.

It's all on you, frankly. If Super's five arcs had aired right after the Buu saga, you'd be defending their power scaling just as hard when compared to whatever other new content, because it's a meaningless discussion.

If you want to talk about pacing, themes, plot, characters or tone, that stuff actually matters when constructing a story. I'm not going to pretend I don't understand what's happening on-screen just because Krillin isn't 100% acting according to some numbers I read online that none of the creative staff have ever cared about.

It is insulting to the intelligence of both creators and fans to suggest that any of this is what determines whether storytelling is good or bad in a TV or comic series.

When it comes to Goku and Vegeta training in DBS I never had any problem at all, infact whatever training they did I always find it enjoyable. I don't have any problem with them getting new transformation, learning new techniques or improving their technique those, those are things I actually like.
It was fun that Goku and Vegeta are actually training together, that is something we never got to see in DBZ. They unique training they did and techniques they gained was good, like not letting their ki leak. Goku Ultra Instinct brought a lot of hype to him.

Please don't think that just because DBS isn't DBZ, that is the reason for my negative view. It has nothing to do that it took many years for Dragon Ball to continue.

Deus Ex Machina powerups I assume are things like transformation, unlocking potential like Ultra Divine Water, Elder Guru and Elder Kaioshin and zenkai is that correct. Normally those things gets explained, it doesn't just happen out of thing air.

I don't rely on power level when it comes to discussion, heck I am one of the members who never was interested in making power level list of characters. That last official power level was on Namek, after that there is nothing official.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Objectively Super is far worse with powerscaling and it's not something you can really compare.

Reality is when people like something there is a chance they will defend it, regardless of what it is including Z, even if it doesn't make sense because there's emotional attachment to what they like.

[Shaddy]

Please don't think that just because DBS isn't DBZ, that is the reason for my negative view. It has nothing to do that it took many years for Dragon Ball to continue.

I can't help but think that to be the case with how shallow power level discussion usually is. It's a mentality that intentionally ignores other aspects of the storytelling and places scaling as equally or more important than characterization, themes et al. when doing so weakens those things.

Deus Ex Machina powerups I assume are things like transformation, unlocking potential like Ultra Divine Water, Elder Guru and Elder Kaioshin and zenkai is that correct. Normally those things gets explained, it doesn't just happen out of thing air.

So the mere presence of an 'explanation' is the end-all, be-all? Doesn't that mean Super's problems are all fixed if they just say "thank god Goku ate the magic whatever burger" before he gets stronger? How is that a real improvement?

I don't rely on power level when it comes to discussion, heck I am one of the members who never was interested in making power level list of characters. That last official power level was on Namek, after that there is nothing official.

Power levels, power scaling, same difference. It's caring about rules the story never followed and delineating between "good" and "bad" uses of it based on personal biases alone. The official tierlist is "whatever they feel like" at the top and "everything else" at the bottom, and it always has been.

[Hypersayian]

The core of those movies, and of Dragon Ball, is not based in forcing writers to follow rigid power mechanics to appease people arguing about semantic bullshit on the internet. I bet people could point out thousands power scaling problems that already exist in the MCU, that you just happen to not notice or care about, and which is just as valid as you think yours with Super are. Which is to say, again, none of it matters.

So you think people would not have cared and would still have enjoyed the movies - interesting.

Not really. Rey only had like one fight, that's not a very good judge of strength, and she barely used the force in it. Luke and Anakin were both magically gifted, the latter being a virgin birth who destroyed an entire trade federation base as a nine year-old piloting a ship he had never even seen before. Internet dudebros will rationalize this but not anything Rey does, no matter how much training is thrust upon her. I can't imagine why.

Rey defeated a lightly wounded (wounds healed within 24 hours) force user who had 20 years of training - two days after finding out the force exists - 3 days later she defeated highly specialised anti force fighters - her force pull of the light saber was equally strong as Kylos - and she lifted 50 tons of rocks no problem. All with practically 0 training. Yet people still whine about Anakin who had R2D2´s help and a lot of luck. These two things are not even remotely comparable.

No matter your attempts of rationalisation - Reys powerscaling/jump was ridiculous, stupid and lead many people to hate her character and the new SW movies - so it would seem that powerscaling does matter for a good story - huh?

Certainly not for the excuses you just gave. And again, who counts as "people"? Is it critics or fans?

Someone who in 2021 still pretends that RT is not a manipulated piece of sith website with 0 credibility and that the ratings of movie critics cannot be influenced by big corporations is to be pitied.

In a few years when Star Wars episodes 10-12 are coming out, there will be people calling the new protagonist a mary-sue (especially if it's a woman, let's be honest) and wishing we could go back to "the good old days" of 7-9. It is going to happen. It will happen. Are you going to be so conceited as to pretend you have the "right" opinion because you still don't like them?

Wait your serious? Except for the the people that shut of their brain while watching the movies and dont care about consistency - no one - absolutely no one will claim this.

I'm pretty sure if the movie was good, they'd still think it was good no matter what actually happened in it.

The people that shut of their brain and dont care about consistency perhaps - for the others it would be a GOT Season 8 moment that would ruin the entire movie. GOT S8 was pretty good in regards of soundtrack, cinematography, action and writing - the only bad thing they did was throw out the consistency of the characters out of the window - didnt turn out to well huh? Because it actually matters what happens.

[super michael]

Please don't think that just because DBS isn't DBZ, that is the reason for my negative view. It has nothing to do that it took many years for Dragon Ball to continue.

I can't help but think that to be the case with how shallow power level discussion usually is. It's a mentality that intentionally ignores other aspects of the storytelling and places scaling as equally or more important than characterization, themes et al. when doing so weakens those things.

Deus Ex Machina powerups I assume are things like transformation, unlocking potential like Ultra Divine Water, Elder Guru and Elder Kaioshin and zenkai is that correct. Normally those things gets explained, it doesn't just happen out of thing air.

So the mere presence of an 'explanation' is the end-all, be-all? Doesn't that mean Super's problems are all fixed if they just say "thank god Goku ate the magic whatever burger" before he gets stronger? How is that a real improvement?

I don't rely on power level when it comes to discussion, heck I am one of the members who never was interested in making power level list of characters. That last official power level was on Namek, after that there is nothing official.

Power levels, power scaling, same difference. It's caring about rules the story never followed and delineating between "good" and "bad" uses of it based on personal biases alone. The official tierlist is "whatever they feel like" at the top and "everything else" at the bottom, and it always has been.

Lets go with your example if Goku eats a magic burger, then that wouldn't be different than Goku drinking the Ultra Divine Water, which would be a magical water/food. Why does it make it more interesting when magic is involved, I don't know why that is.
I forgot Vegeta getting possessed by Babidi that unlocked Vegeta potential.

When they give a explanation it feels like they set a rule for how they gained those powers.
When it comes to lets say Freeza beating Tagoma, then we have to question how a Zarbon/Dodorai tier fight got Freeza to God Tier and Tagoma to above Perfect Cell Tier. Remember it was mentioned by Freeza around what tier level Tagoma was.

Then we have Present Trunks training with Pilaf and his gang, yet no huge power increase to anyone or Paragus training with Broly, yet Paragus doesn't make insane gains but is as weak as Nappa.

There is one huge difference between Dragon Ball Super and Yashahime, they are both continuation but Dragon Ball Super uses old character, so power scales comes to play. Yashahime uses all new characters, so power scale isn't used there since there is no existing data.
I can tell you this I fully enjoy Yashahime for its writing, adventure, characters, comedy, etc. Funny enough power scaling is something I don't care in Yashahime. I never thought of this an example "this character shouldn't be this strong", "this character gain should be impossible", etc. Just incase I watched and read Inuyasha.

Now Digimon Adventure Reboot I was enjoying it a lot, that is until the Digimon unlocked their Ultimate and Mega form, then for some reason the Digimon just happens to refuse to digivolve beyond champion for no reason. They preferred to lose, let someone die and get captured instead of digivolving to Ultimate level, even though there was no problem before.

The reason I mentioned Yashahime and Digimon Adventure Reboot is to show that new doesn't mean good or bad.

@Hypersayian I really must watch Star Wars on of these days, although there are many movies that I have to watch.

[LoganForkHands73]

The core of those movies, and of Dragon Ball, is not based in forcing writers to follow rigid power mechanics to appease people arguing about semantic bullshit on the internet. I bet people could point out thousands power scaling problems that already exist in the MCU, that you just happen to not notice or care about, and which is just as valid as you think yours with Super are. Which is to say, again, none of it matters.

So you think people would not have cared and would still have enjoyed the movies - interesting.

I mean, yeah, yeah they do. Marvel Studios produce the very definition of fistpump popcorn flicks -- in Endgame Steve literally picks up a thousand-tonne mystical hammer and starts using it against Thanos like a pro. People eat that shit up because it's cool and it's a progression of his character. In the final battle, he and loads of other borderline street-level characters start kicking the Black Order's asses when they proved to be difficult opponents for heavyweights like Vision and Scarlet Witch in Infinity War. That's not even counting the time when Steve grappled with Thanos briefly without any supernatural aid, so your example effectively did happen in the movies, and they're still the biggest box office smashes of all time.

Average viewers don't care about powerscaling. This is reality.

Not really. Rey only had like one fight, that's not a very good judge of strength, and she barely used the force in it. Luke and Anakin were both magically gifted, the latter being a virgin birth who destroyed an entire trade federation base as a nine year-old piloting a ship he had never even seen before. Internet dudebros will rationalize this but not anything Rey does, no matter how much training is thrust upon her. I can't imagine why.

Rey defeated a lightly wounded (wounds healed within 24 hours) force user who had 20 years of training - two days after finding out the force exists - 3 days later she defeated highly specialised anti force fighters - her force pull of the light saber was equally strong as Kylos - and she lifted 50 tons of rocks no problem. All with practically 0 training. Yet people still whine about Anakin who had R2D2´s help and a lot of luck. These two things are not even remotely comparable.

No matter your attempts of rationalisation - Reys powerscaling/jump was ridiculous, stupid and lead many people to hate her character and the new SW movies - so it would seem that powerscaling does matter for a good story - huh?

The two scenarios are comparable. Anakin's training-less feats as a 9-year-old are just as ridiculous on their face as 20-year-old Rey's training-less feats, if not more so. The little dude blew up the entire Trade Federation control ship, and he was in control as he specifically turned the autopilot off. Rey had a lot of luck on her side in her fight, just as Anakin did on Naboo. What makes one better than the other? The fact that Anakin's 'The Chosen One'?

Ultimately, the people complaining most vocally about these feats are internet nerds in echochambers. The Star Wars sequels, flawed as they are, still made billions and evidently a lot of people do like them in spite of the backlash. Don't get me wrong, there's a LOT of valid criticism to be made, but it boils down to the overuse of familiar structural elements, the often unclear motivations of the characters, etc. All these 50 minute long video essays like "Why Star Wars: The Last Star War is the WORST movie of ALL TIME" nitpicking every miniscule detail, every minor lore inconsistency, they don't constitute mature criticism.

Also, I'd question Kylo being only lightly wounded. Dude was shot through the abdomen by Chewie's bowcaster and he just got done murdering his own father, he was unbalanced both mentally and physically. I think he was handicapped more than enough to rationalise Finn and Rey taking him down.

I'm pretty sure if the movie was good, they'd still think it was good no matter what actually happened in it.

The people that shut of their brain and dont care about consistency perhaps - for the others it would be a GOT Season 8 moment that would ruin the entire movie. GOT S8 was pretty good in regards of soundtrack, cinematography, action and writing - the only bad thing they did was throw out the consistency of the characters out of the window - didnt turn out to well huh? Because it actually matters what happens.

You're exactly right, the inconsistency of the characters ruined it for Game of Thrones, not any bad powerscaling (though I'm not sure how that would apply to GoT in any rate...)

[super michael]

LoganForkHands73 In the Marvel movie of Ultron we

Spoiler:

saw Captain America was able to move the hammer a bit, but then he stopped trying.

In End Game Captain America was

Spoiler:

able to lift the hammer and Thor said that he knew it. That means Thor knew he could lift the hammer from before.

To lift Thor hammer one must be worthy, that is the seal that Oden put on Thor hammer. If the user isn't worthy then they can't lift the hammer. Where was it stated that Thor hammer weights thousand-tonne?

Although in End Game

Spoiler:

there shouldn't be any seal, since Oden put a seal when Thor risked his planet going to war. The hammer is from the past when Thor mother was alive so the seal shouldn't be on it.