How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Dbzfan94 » Thu May 20, 2021 11:34 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:01 am
PurestEvil wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 10:48 am ...how does that not make sense? On what logical basis did you conclude that because Goku and Piccolo could "manipulate their ki" (even though raditz used his own ki blasts???), they should have been stronger than Raditz?
Because that means they understand fighting on a level that Raditz can only dream of but for entirely arbritrary reasons weren't able to use that knowledge to grow strong enough to take Raditz one on one. Keep in mind Goku could double the strength of his attacks and Piccolo could triple his with the Makankosappo. Stuff that completely blew Raditz mind when he saw it. He's easily a much worse fighter than the two.

The series gives no explanation for why people who clearly understand the power source of the setting are unable to translate that knowledge into meaningful gains in strength. People like Raditz are just strong for no reason.
Wasn't the whole point of that was Raditz relying too much on his scouter?

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Thu May 20, 2021 11:53 am

Yuji wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:29 am It does: genetics, which is about as realistic as you can get. Bodybuilders, power-lifters, fighters and strongmen don't really have a better knowledge of anatomy, dieting and exercise than a good coach or sports scientist, yet they're the ones competing and breaking records because of their inherent biology. The series has always shown that your genetics (at least in terms of your species, within your species you can overcome genetics by effort) is one of the big reasons why certain characters are stronger than others.
Yeah no. We're not talking about pure tests of strength. We're talking about fights and 9 times in 10 when a heavy puncher goes up against a technically sound opponent the puncher gets beat.

Besides, that still doesn't explain why Goku was so much weaker than Raditz despite supposedly having better genes and being more knowledgeable about fighting. It also doesn't explain how the Earthlings, the genetically weaker race, managed to close the gap with Raditz in just under a year's time. There's no in story justification for it. Why would there be? That's not how Toriyama writes. He knew he needed Raditz to be strong but vulnerable so that's what he did. And later in the same arc he needed the humans to be strong enough to put up a fight but not strong enough to realistically have a chance of winning. So that's what he did.
PurestEvil wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:25 am Why do you think that is implausible? Yes, they can multiply their power levels by making ki attacks, but how do you know they could have been able to beat Raditz one on one? You seem to be applying arbitrary expectations on this story just because the circumstance of Raditz being stronger was arbitrary.
If you accept that Raditz strength was arbritrary then I don't get why you still disagree. That's basically my whole point. Raditz being stronger than Goku doesn't make sense, it's just something the story decided on because it made for good a shocking reveal and good drama.
By the way, Raditz is not a "much worse" fighter just because he doesn't manipulate ki, he easily beats them in physical combat.
Deontay Wilder is a worse fighter than Tyson Fury. Doesn't matter how many wins you have, if all you're doing is muscling through opponents you're not actually a good fighter.
Dbzfan94 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:34 am Wasn't the whole point of that was Raditz relying too much on his scouter?
I doubt it. Had Raditz listened to his scouter he'd have known Gohan was stupidly strong and that Goku and Piccolo were on their way. Raditz ignoring his scouter totally fucked him.
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Yuji » Thu May 20, 2021 11:58 am

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:53 amWe're talking about fights and 9 times in 10 when a heavy puncher goes up against a technically sound opponent the puncher gets beat.
Both Raditz and Goku are fighters; actually, they're not fighters, they're brawlers, they're not participating in a tournament but a fight to the death. In real life, there are weight classes for a reason. Put any strongmen against a featherweight in a real brawl and the professional fighter will lose most times. Just equate Ki output to weight classes.
Besides, that still doesn't explain why Goku was so much weaker than Raditz despite supposedly having better genes and being more knowledgeable about fighting. It also doesn't explain how the Earthlings, the genetically weaker race, managed to close the gap with Raditz in just under a year's time. There's no in story justification for it. Why would there be? That's not how Toriyama writes. He knew he needed Raditz to be strong but vulnerable so that's what he did. And later in the same arc he needed the humans to be strong enough to put up a fight but not strong enough to realistically have a chance of winning. So that's what he did.
Goku had awful genes, that's the point. Raditz also was far more experienced when it came to life or death situations and certainly exploited his race's near-death power-up boost more often than Goku did. The Earthlings had literal divine training. Toriyama may not provide an overt explanation in the same vein as other Shonen authors or even Toyotaro, but there's usually enough clues to make a fair assumption.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu May 20, 2021 12:12 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:53 am snip
Huh? Raditz being stronger than Goku in terms of raw power makes a ton of sense. He was fighting in a brute force organization on all types of civilizations his entire life while Goku got his experience with beings far weaker than anybody out in space.

Some of the mechanics don't line up but the basic logic makes sense.

Like Yuji said, weight classes exist for a reason. A technically sound fighter is just going to have more trouble against a really strong guy that's bigger than him.
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by super michael » Thu May 20, 2021 12:13 pm

I just want to point out Raditz can handle and has experienced 10x gravity, while the others never trained in 10x gravity. When Goku got to King Kai world that is why Goku was unable to walk properly.

One of the advantages that Saiyan has is their 10x gravity, this was stated by King Kai himself.

Now for the humans they got to train under Mr Popo and Kami and we know that Kami learned a few things. The evidence is that Kami learned about the Mafuba thanks to the humans using it. We are told that Kami didn't over see Goku training, so the one who trained Goku was Mr Popo.

Edit although Raditz never trained his tail to get rid of that weakness, while Goku trained himself to get rid of his tail weakness.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by PurestEvil » Thu May 20, 2021 12:34 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:53 am
PurestEvil wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:25 am Why do you think that is implausible? Yes, they can multiply their power levels by making ki attacks, but how do you know they could have been able to beat Raditz one on one? You seem to be applying arbitrary expectations on this story just because the circumstance of Raditz being stronger was arbitrary.
If you accept that Raditz strength was arbritrary then I don't get why you still disagree. That's basically my whole point. Raditz being stronger than Goku doesn't make sense, it's just something the story decided on because it made for good a shocking reveal and good drama.
I actually do NOT accept that Raditz's strength is "arbitrary". He was a Saiyan soldier working under Freeza (alongside Nappa and Vegeta), it was pretty much his job to be a strong enough fighter. However, even if we were to assume it was arbitrary, it does not mean it does not make sense.
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by super michael » Thu May 20, 2021 12:41 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:34 pm
It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:53 am
PurestEvil wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:25 am Why do you think that is implausible? Yes, they can multiply their power levels by making ki attacks, but how do you know they could have been able to beat Raditz one on one? You seem to be applying arbitrary expectations on this story just because the circumstance of Raditz being stronger was arbitrary.
If you accept that Raditz strength was arbritrary then I don't get why you still disagree. That's basically my whole point. Raditz being stronger than Goku doesn't make sense, it's just something the story decided on because it made for good a shocking reveal and good drama.
I actually do NOT accept that Raditz's strength is "arbitrary". He was a Saiyan soldier working under Freeza (alongside Nappa and Vegeta), it was pretty much his job to be a strong enough fighter. However, even if we were to assume it was arbitrary, it does not mean it does not make sense.
Don't forget just living in planet Vegeta is training in itself, every Saiyan has to with stand 10x gravity 24/7. When the Saiyans went to earth, they noted that earth gravity feels like a feather.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu May 20, 2021 12:52 pm

I don't understand the problem with the ki manipulation.
Z-senshi can't manipulate it beyond hiding their ki or doing stronger attacks momentarily. It's not like they can double their power for as long as the fight lasts and beat somebody stronger, that's kaioken.
Goku doubles his power through a kamehameha, not for the whole fight, doing so costs him energy, it's not for free either, he can't spam it all day long. And it still didn't do jack because 1200 > 900. Piccolo's attack was a little stronger and still needed Raditz to be injured... and it killed him.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Thu May 20, 2021 2:11 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:34 pm I actually do NOT accept that Raditz's strength is "arbitrary". He was a Saiyan soldier working under Freeza (alongside Nappa and Vegeta), it was pretty much his job to be a strong enough fighter. However, even if we were to assume it was arbitrary, it does not mean it does not make sense.
You're still admitting it's arbritrary. What you've just said is that 'Raditz is strong because the plot needs him to be strong.' There's nothing about how Raditz trained or was raised that explains why he'd be stronger than Goku or Piccolo. He just is. Which makes it arbritrary. No different than Future Trunks being able to bust out new powers to hurt Zamasu.
super michael wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:41 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:34 pm I actually do NOT accept that Raditz's strength is "arbitrary". He was a Saiyan soldier working under Freeza (alongside Nappa and Vegeta), it was pretty much his job to be a strong enough fighter. However, even if we were to assume it was arbitrary, it does not mean it does not make sense.
Don't forget just living in planet Vegeta is training in itself, every Saiyan has to with stand 10x gravity 24/7. When the Saiyans went to earth, they noted that earth gravity feels like a feather.
This cop out doesn't work. Raditz and Vegeta were both very young when the homeworld was destroyed. For them it's been a memory longer than its been a physical place. And even for an older Saiyan like Nappa it's unlikely he spent much time on the Homeworld at all. Their job is to subjugate worlds so ironically the Saiyans spending the most time actually on Vegeta-sei were weaklings like Gine. The power of characters like Raditz and Vegeta had nothing to do with harsh training. In fact, it doesn't seem to have had anything to do with training at all.
super michael wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:13 pm Now for the humans they got to train under Mr Popo and Kami and we know that Kami learned a few things. The evidence is that Kami learned about the Mafuba thanks to the humans using it. We are told that Kami didn't over see Goku training, so the one who trained Goku was Mr Popo.
This makes no sense. Kami, who was willing to commit suicide to stop Piccolo, left the training up to Mr Popo? He saw Piccolo as enough of a threat that he willing to deprive Earth of its God but not enough of a threat for him to personally train Goku?
jjgp1112 wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:12 pm Huh? Raditz being stronger than Goku in terms of raw power makes a ton of sense. He was fighting in a brute force organization on all types of civilizations his entire life while Goku got his experience with beings far weaker than anybody out in space.

Some of the mechanics don't line up but the basic logic makes sense.

Like Yuji said, weight classes exist for a reason. A technically sound fighter is just going to have more trouble against a really strong guy that's bigger than him.
Thing is weight classes are easy to understand and the way they work is readily exploitable (for example, the number of fighters who'll 'deflate' themselves through dehydration to fight 10-20 pounds under their actual weight). Weightclasses in Dragon Ball would be determined by ki, how much of it you have. So why is it that the people who best understand ki don't know enough to keep increasing theirs? A fighter will put on weight when he goes up weightclasses and stop only when it becomes clear his body can't put on the kinda muscle needed. Why don't we see the same with ki? It can't be that their bodies can't handle the new ki as Gohan and Krillin are perfectly fine after Guru's power up.

In the years after the 23rd WMAT it looks like Goku and Piccolo plateaued... until Piccolo, on his own, is just able to train himself to three or four times his previous battle power. It doesn't add up. If Piccolo could do that why didn't he keep doing that in the years after he'd lost to Goku?

This cuts both ways too. How come with all of his wartime experience Raditz never learned to mess with his power output? How is it that Freeza's army knows enough about ki to quanitfy it in scientific terms but not enough to do things the Earthlings could? A galaxy spanning empire and no one's thought to test just what ki can really do? That doesn't make in story sense. But if Freeza's army could do those things they wouldn't have made such good foils to Earth's martial artists and Goku specifically.

Which was the point of my initial comment. Super doesn't have more asspulls in it than Dragon Ball proper. It's just that when Dragon Ball did things that don't make sense it fit the story well enough that either no one noticed or no one cared.
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by PurestEvil » Thu May 20, 2021 2:48 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:11 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 12:34 pm I actually do NOT accept that Raditz's strength is "arbitrary". He was a Saiyan soldier working under Freeza (alongside Nappa and Vegeta), it was pretty much his job to be a strong enough fighter. However, even if we were to assume it was arbitrary, it does not mean it does not make sense.
You're still admitting it's arbritrary. What you've just said is that 'Raditz is strong because the plot needs him to be strong.' There's nothing about how Raditz trained or was raised that explains why he'd be stronger than Goku or Piccolo. He just is. Which makes it arbritrary. No different than Future Trunks being able to bust out new powers to hurt Zamasu.
How am I still admitting it is arbitrary? Don't massage my words.
Future Trunks and Raditz are not comparable. Just like what Yuji said, we can actually make inferences based on information given to us (like the fact that Raditz was an active soldier throughout his life); Future Trunks' power ups (eg Spirit sword) appear without even a hint being given for a reason.
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by super michael » Thu May 20, 2021 3:24 pm

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:11 pm You're still admitting it's arbritrary. What you've just said is that 'Raditz is strong because the plot needs him to be strong.' There's nothing about how Raditz trained or was raised that explains why he'd be stronger than Goku or Piccolo. He just is. Which makes it arbritrary. No different than Future Trunks being able to bust out new powers to hurt Zamasu.
We are told that weak baby Saiyans are sent to weak planets, which baby Saiyans with higher powers stays in Planet Vegeta.

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:11 pm This cop out doesn't work. Raditz and Vegeta were both very young when the homeworld was destroyed. For them it's been a memory longer than its been a physical place. And even for an older Saiyan like Nappa it's unlikely he spent much time on the Homeworld at all. Their job is to subjugate worlds so ironically the Saiyans spending the most time actually on Vegeta-sei were weaklings like Gine. The power of characters like Raditz and Vegeta had nothing to do with harsh training. In fact, it doesn't seem to have had anything to do with training at all.
Your right Vegeta and were young when Planet Vegeta was blown up, so it doesn't make sense what Nappa said about feeling like a feather on Earth due to Earth gravity.

It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:11 pm This makes no sense. Kami, who was willing to commit suicide to stop Piccolo, left the training up to Mr Popo? He saw Piccolo as enough of a threat that he willing to deprive Earth of its God but not enough of a threat for him to personally train Goku?
Actually Kami wasn't counting on Goku killing Piccolo, since he knew that killing Piccolo would lead to Kami dying so Goku wouldn't do it. That is why he entered the tournament. When Kami entered the tournament his original plan wasn't to kill Piccolo, but to seal him with the technique he learned from the human which was the Mafuba.
Chapter 180 says everything. It is when Kami in a human body is talking to Goku, it the chapter that Kami battles Piccolo in the tournament.

Just incase for Raditz he never learned to get rid of his weakness from his tail.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Thu May 20, 2021 5:02 pm

super michael wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 8:36 am The offscreen training isn't the bad part, it is the ordinary training that is hinted that I find it bad. Krillin is so strong, how would a gym make Krillin push his limits. For Mr Buu his training partner isn't even super human and doesn't even know anything about ki, how would he be able to grant Buu a huge boost in power. Mr Satan fights like a normal humans and not like a super human.
In the anime C17 says he trains, so I guess that is fine.
Because people who can use ki and people who can't are fundamentally different by Dragon Ball's rules. And even mild exercise still actually improves your body. Characters don't all have to train the way Vegeta does to get stronger, and in Krillin's case, a lot of it was getting him back to the levels he already achieved, not pushing some wild new boundaries. Buu is probably not unlike Freeza, having any training at all and toning his body up a bit totally changed things on the face of it. It's not about forcing yourself to an absolute limit. You're more likely to just hurt yourself doing that, which as we've seen, Vegeta does over and over.
super michael wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 8:36 am There the ROSAT which Dende upgraded in DBS so there is no limit to amount of time anyone can use, but somehow that place to reserved exclusively for Goku and Vegeta only. The reason why no one used the ROSAT in DBZ was because a person can only use it for 2 years in their whole life, once they used it up they can't use it again or they stay stuck in the ROSAT forever.
We know the Z fighters can handheld more than earth gravity.
Again, this is really kind of sidestepping what actually happens to a point that may as well be explained away so it doesn't matter. The major time that anyone would even have the time and knowledge to use the time chamber is before the tournament of power, and sure, you can maybe make the argument that someone could have gotten stronger if they used the chamber first, but the show tells us that everyone was at the top of their game entering the TOP. They would win and lose the same fights they won and lost either way. You can say it's a little sloppy to not even acknowledge it, I suppose I might agree, but that's not the same as a powerscaling debate.
super michael wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 8:36 am My problem was that when I hear they did ordinary training, somehow that was enough for extraordinary gains. While before it required extraordinary training to make extraordinary gains.
I think both of these statements require objective judgement of "ordinary" and "extraordinary" training and gains, which nobody here is at liberty to make. The only time Krillin ever trained the way Goku did was back with Roshi in the first Tenkaichi Budokai. The training everyone went through in the Saiyan arc (sans filler) doesn't seem so unbelievably grueling, but it got everyone past the level Goku was when he died, which is crazy. But we don't care, because that's the level they needed to be to fight Saibamen and to struggle against Nappa and Vegeta.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Anonymous Friend » Thu May 20, 2021 5:35 pm

It's not arbitrary. Raditz and any other fighter would need to be strong just to exist in Freeza's army, other wise you'd just be assigned to some nothing posting, or worse, be assigned to Freeza's personal vessels and probably get randomly killed due to Freeza's whim.

Had Goku ran with his own kind, you'd bet that he probably have been at Raditz's level.

Also, I don't care how much training a toddler has, he ain't beating me in a fight. Many have tried, many have failed.
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Thu May 20, 2021 7:55 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 5:35 pm It's not arbitrary. Raditz and any other fighter would need to be strong just to exist in Freeza's army, other wise you'd just be assigned to some nothing posting, or worse, be assigned to Freeza's personal vessels and probably get randomly killed due to Freeza's whim.

Had Goku ran with his own kind, you'd bet that he probably have been at Raditz's level.

Also, I don't care how much training a toddler has, he ain't beating me in a fight. Many have tried, many have failed.
Size and weight don't mean anything in Dragon Ball. Ki does. So why is it that species with a strong understanding of ki lag so far behind species who can only interact with it through technology? There's an arbritrary cap on what humans can do and an equally arbritrary bottom on what aliens can do.

This is a really obvious contradiction, guys. I know it is because so many in the fandom are salty about it wrt to characters introduced in the ToP. I hate to say it but nostalgia goggles and fanon are all over this conversation.
super michael wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 3:24 pm We are told that weak baby Saiyans are sent to weak planets, which baby Saiyans with higher powers stays in Planet Vegeta.
And we are shown in Dragon Ball Minus that contrary to what Raditz said, weak Saiyans hang out doing all the menial work around the homeworld. Maybe I'm drawing too much of an inference but based on that it's hard for me to imagine how being raised in Saiyan society would have done anything for Goku. Which is probably the only thing about Minus that keeps with the themes introduced in the Saiyan Arc but that's a different topic and totally unrelated to this one.
PurestEvil wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 2:48 pm How am I still admitting it is arbitrary? Don't massage my words.
Future Trunks and Raditz are not comparable. Just like what Yuji said, we can actually make inferences based on information given to us (like the fact that Raditz was an active soldier throughout his life); Future Trunks' power ups (eg Spirit sword) appear without even a hint being given for a reason.
You actually can rationalize the Trunks asspull. Not only did he spend most of his life fighting against creatures that never tire Trunks also travelled to the past and through Goku saw that "strength" could come about through effecient use of ki. So he had plenty of reason to figure out how to get the most bang for however much ki he was putting into his attacks.

Is that a satisfactory explanation? No! And neither is the galactic soldier explanation. Especially since the implication is that Raditz was always around that battle power. At least since he entered adulthood. Toriyama needed Raditz to be a certain level, just like he needed him to have certain vulnerabilities and just like he needed the Earthlings to have stayed below a certain level, so that's the direction the story took.
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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Skar » Thu May 20, 2021 9:15 pm

Shaddy wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 1:08 amSure they will. They did for the prequels. I mean, surely Lucasfilm could have just payed everyone to like them too, right? I'd do it. Where's my check? George? Kathy?
I don't like generalizations about an entire fanbase especially when it's something that comes down to personal opinion. I'm more of a casual fan of SW and my opinion of the prequel trilogy didn't change after watching the sequel trilogy.I thought they entertaining enough for a one time viewing as far as sequels go but personally didn't think they were as good as the original. Decades from now they might be considered as iconic as the original trilogy but that's something that comes with time so they shouldn't affect my personal opinion of them. I'm easier to please than most people though because there were some movies that had a low critic score and I still liked them anyway.
Shaddy wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 1:08 amI want to be clear, this isn't what I'm saying. There are problems with power-ups in Super, but those come from them hurting tension, making the character weaker, or sidestepping answering more difficult or interesting story routes. It's about what makes for an engaging narrative, not whether every character is acting within the boundaries someone thinks they should be allowed to.

To be honest I think that's what most people in this thread are arguing since it's usually about what existing characters who have been out of the story for a few sagas suddenly becoming stronger. To give an example about what I meant by wish fulfillment, Freeza or a member of his race becoming back far stronger is pretty common in fanwork. I always considered this unlikely for Toriyama to do because he had Freeza and Cold go to Earth without considering to train first and that was the last we saw of them before the series ended. It's also common in fanwork to say that a character has huge potential and surpasses a few sagas worth of power-ups in a short time because they barely trained before. I usually pointed out how Gohan and Uub had huge potential but lacked the experience to realize it without being trained. If Freeza and #17 had huge potential that also came with the knowledge of how to train effectively then I feel that does differ from what the series established about prodigies before.

To be clear, claiming that a certain power-up could've been handled better doesn't mean that's all you care about. BoG established that some mortal races could obtain God ki so I think that could've been a more unique approach to this common sequel idea of bringing back fan favorites who haven't appeared for several sagas.
I think this is a much more reasonable thing to take issue with, and also necessarily distinct from power level discourse. Roshi is the best example. Guy passed the torch to Goku long ago, so keeping him around in battle kind of undermines the moment where Goku is supposed to have visually far-surpassed him. That said, it's not the same as complaining that "he shouldn't be able to be that strong", because...well, of course he's going to be able to do stuff if the story wants to have him around. This was kind of GT's problem, having Goku be so far above everyone and also having them get their shit kicked in over and over. It makes for incredibly predictable storytelling. Who wants to know exactly how a fight will go before it happens?
To be fair, that's what happened in BoG but there were still surprises on how the story played out. We don't need to know exactly how strong every character is but the original series gave us a general idea where characters stood relative to each other. Roshi and Yamcha didn't try to fight Beerus, Piccolo, #18, and Tien were taken out in one hit, and the Saiyans and Buu put up the most resistance before losing. It was more to do with keeping what was established in the original series.

In an interview with Toei, I recall a producer saying that the humans with weaker than the SSJs but they could still contribute in the ToP. He's not obsessed with power levels just pointing out what was established already. I didn't mind them in the ToP because there were several opponents of varying strength and they didn't go after anyone who was Goku and Vegeta's level. Rigid power levels don't matter but it's obvious there's some basic power structure they have in mind since it's not like Krillin or Roshi defeated someone that stronger than Goku. I only disagreed with implying Roshi might be stronger than some of his students now since he retired decades ago and was surpassed by all of them. The plot didn't really require it since you could remove any implication that he might be stronger than them and his contribution would be the same which was fighting some weaker contestants.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by The Monkey King » Thu May 20, 2021 10:15 pm

Kataphrut wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 6:09 amPeople criticise the two on two fight between Goku and Trunks and Black and Zamasu for example because Trunks appears to be doing well against them. But he's only doing well by those old trope standards ie his sword isn't snapping in half the moment it touches Zamasu. But if you actually watch the fight, pay attention to the story as it's being told through the animation, he's not "holding his own" at all. He's barely scraping by and most of his attacks are getting dodged or blocked. It's not "bad power scaling", it's just conveying information through action.
Trunks went from being stomped by base Goku Black to holding his own and even overpowering SSR Goku Black with absolutely ZERO explanation whatsoever. That's just bad writing, Trunks shouldn't even be "scraping by" against SSR Goku Black by the logic DBS itself established a few episodes prior, he should be stomped into the ground even worse than before.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Thu May 20, 2021 11:31 pm

Skar wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 9:15 pm I don't like generalizations about an entire fanbase especially when it's something that comes down to personal opinion. I'm more of a casual fan of SW and my opinion of the prequel trilogy didn't change after watching the sequel trilogy.I thought they entertaining enough for a one time viewing as far as sequels go but personally didn't think they were as good as the original. Decades from now they might be considered as iconic as the original trilogy but that's something that comes with time so they shouldn't affect my personal opinion of them. I'm easier to please than most people though because there were some movies that had a low critic score and I still liked them anyway.
I wasn't generalizing about the entire fandom there, I was specifically attacking this dude's claim that there won't be people with nostalgia for the sequels around to judge the next set of Star Wars movies the same way a lot of sequel hate comes from prequel fans. I actually have a lot of problems with most Star Wars films including the entirety of the sequel and prequel trilogies, but the point here was mostly that this guy is trying to have his cake and eat it, declaring praise for the movies he likes legitimate and praise for the movies he doesn't like as fabricated or illegitimate.
Skar wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 9:15 pm To be honest I think that's what most people in this thread are arguing since it's usually about what existing characters who have been out of the story for a few sagas suddenly becoming stronger. To give an example about what I meant by wish fulfillment, Freeza or a member of his race becoming back far stronger is pretty common in fanwork. I always considered this unlikely for Toriyama to do because he had Freeza and Cold go to Earth without considering to train first and that was the last we saw of them before the series ended. It's also common in fanwork to say that a character has huge potential and surpasses a few sagas worth of power-ups in a short time because they barely trained before. I usually pointed out how Gohan and Uub had huge potential but lacked the experience to realize it without being trained. If Freeza and #17 had huge potential that also came with the knowledge of how to train effectively then I feel that does differ from what the series established about prodigies before.
I really don't think so. I think if it were about the actual tone or pacing or emotions in the story itself, that's what people would be talking about. Power scaling discussion only ever seems to serve itself, I've never seen it meaningfully bleed into other, more-nuanced discussion, it's considered a category and measure of quality all it's own, especially when it comes to ways that making the story better is what hurts the power scale in the first place.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Hypersayian » Fri May 21, 2021 4:23 am

Jack Bz wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 9:09 amI think Kale in the anime is super's power scaling at its worst. When a show makes me think "Oh man! I wonder how Universe 7 is going to beat Kale, Goku can't even harm her with a super saiyan blue kamehameha!" to "oh, the answer was just...fighting her in a weaker form with no particular strategy", that takes me out of the story. The writers didn't even come up with a solution to the problem they conveyed earlier of Kale being a power house that Goku can't even hurt.
The Monkey King wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 10:15 pmTrunks went from being stomped by base Goku Black to holding his own and even overpowering SSR Goku Black with absolutely ZERO explanation whatsoever. That's just bad writing, Trunks shouldn't even be "scraping by" against SSR Goku Black by the logic DBS itself established a few episodes prior, he should be stomped into the ground even worse than before.
That is exactly the problem I am criticising. Z wasnt perfect - but there were at least attempted explanations. We more or less knew where everyone stood powerwise and the power jumps were not galactic. And there was no lazy, incoherent mess like a SSB Kamehameha doing nothing against Kale - but a SSJ2 holding his own against Kale AND SSJ2 Caulifla and both Kale+Caulifla standing in awe at the power of SSJ3 - while Kale just tanked something from a form thousands or octillions of times stronger than that...

When Goku used Kaioken against Vegeta or Ginyu it actually did something - it enabled Goku to hurt Vegeta and made Ginyu tremble in fear. With Frieza it at least enabled Goku to not be stomped within seconds. But against Hit? 10x Kaioken? Same effect as regular Goku....

Even the filler scenes in Z like SSJ2 Goku vs Kid Buu and base Vegito vs Buuhan - while less consistent than the Manga - made much more sense than Super. This series just jumps around powerwise without any explanation. People who just accept this and clap because its more Dragonball while criticising Z are just hypocrites defending bad and lazy writing.

"Oh DBZ was silly - why was Radditz stronger than Goku - why did the Z fighter get 5-10x stronger within a year surpassing Radditz? It doesnt make sense"

Frieza - Broly - Android 17 - Trunks -Tagoma -Gohan- Piccolo getting Thousands to Millions of times stronger withint minutes to months- Base Kefla surpassing a SSJG - Shisami giving trouble to Piccolo - weaker forms doing more damage than stronger forms:

*clap clap clap clap* :wtf:

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Hypersayian » Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am

Shaddy wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 1:08 amWell by that logic, Kylo was both physically and psychologically injured and recovering from the events of Force Awakens and therefore wasn't at full strength. Rocks are easy. Rey has more midi-chlorians, just like Anakin. Luke is a good teacher. If you think Rey shouldn't be that strong, you actually hate Luke and think he was so incompetent and stupid that he could never possibly get her to be good at the force.
This is just nonsense. We see Luke struggle and train for YEARS before mastering more complicated force powers/getting stronger
We see Anakin struggle and train for YEARS before mastering more complicated force powers/getting stronger

When Luke saves Grogu in the Mandalorian he says that potential without training is meaningless

Rey gets everything handed to her on a silver platter with 0 training - sorry 0.1 she did swing her lightsaber for like 5 minutes in TLJ and she did have a few minutes of instructions by Luke. And within DAYS she gets better at everything than Space Jesus and his Son. This is bad and lazy writing, a bad character and people like you defending this "because nothing matters" "you can just throw all consistency out of the window for a "good" story" is the reason we get dumb movies without any consistency/powerscaling/sense like Transformers or Fast&Furious.

Doesnt make any sense? Doesnt matter! Explosions and stuff! Story and stuff! I will swallow every nonsense the writers throw at me and I even will defend it! " *clap clap clap clap*
Shaddy wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 1:08 amWell, let me ask again, Critics, or fans? You don't get to just decide everyone objectively thinks a movie is bad for the reasons you do. Are the critics biased and don't care about powerscaling in The Last Jedi, or are the power levels in Rise of Skywalker so perfect that it trumps everything that sucks about the movie? If you're going to cry that critics were paid off, then gee, they sure should have fucking done that for Rise of Skywalker, huh?
1. I would suggest you look at other movie review sites other than RT

2. It has been proven that the audience score on RT for ROS has been manipulated - you can use google to verify that. So fans/ordinary movie goers did not like TLJ neither ROS. As for "professional" movie critics - these are the people that give shit shows like Batwoman,Star Trek Discovery and the last few Seasons of Dr Who high ratings, despite the audience hating them. They are also often bribed by Disney/Hollywood. After the fiasco of TLJ - they realized that they should not lie because it hurts their credibility and gave ROS realistic scores. Something they did not for TLJ because of the hype/woke messages/ bribing.
Hypersayian wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 4:58 amSure they will.
No they won´t
Shaddy wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 1:08 amNo, actually, most Game of Thrones fans will tell you the writing was very very shit in Game of Thrones season 8, and that's why it sucked. It wasn't because of power levels.
Wait I though "nothing matters" so how can something be bad because of inconsistency? Bad writing is like bad powerscaling - what the inconsistency in character decisions/behavior was for GOT - that is inconsistency in powerscaling/powerjumps for most of Shonen Anime/Dragonball. Sure you can push it here and there - but if something becomes utterly ridiculous and inconsistent - it will destroy/or at least drag down an otherwise sound series.

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Re: How can people claim that Z had worse powerscaling/powerjumps than Super?

Post by Shaddy » Fri May 21, 2021 7:41 am

Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am This is just nonsense. We see Luke struggle and train for YEARS before mastering more complicated force powers/getting stronger
We see Anakin struggle and train for YEARS before mastering more complicated force powers/getting stronger

When Luke saves Grogu in the Mandalorian he says that potential without training is meaningless

Rey gets everything handed to her on a silver platter with 0 training - sorry 0.1 she did swing her lightsaber for like 5 minutes in TLJ and she did have a few minutes of instructions by Luke. And within DAYS she gets better at everything than Space Jesus and his Son.
Anakin didn't struggle for years to learn how to fly a ship he's never even seen and destroy a trade federation battleship as a nine year-old. If you can excuse that, you can excuse Rey being able to defeat a few dudes and lift some rocks.
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am This is bad and lazy writing, a bad character and people like you defending this "because nothing matters"
I never said "nothing matters". If you think "power scaling doesn't matter" and "absolutely nothing matters" are the same statement, doesn't that imply power scaling is all that matters? Why don't you just stare at an actual fucking scale for fun if you're going to be that shallow?
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am"you can just throw all consistency out of the window for a "good" story" is the reason we get dumb movies without any consistency/powerscaling/sense like Transformers or Fast&Furious.
Well no, because if those movies had been good stories, they would be good. Shocking, I know.

There's also not much wrong with their power scaling. Vin Diesel is a solid level-5 in every single movie. But if you think they're bad anyway, doesn't that mean power scaling is not all that matters?
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am Doesnt make any sense? Doesnt matter! Explosions and stuff! Story and stuff! I will swallow every nonsense the writers throw at me and I even will defend it! " *clap clap clap clap*
Well no, I'm not swallowing or defending the prequels, am I? Those movies are boring as shit.

It's almost like I believe different things from you or something.
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am 1. I would suggest you look at other movie review sites other than RT
Okay, what movie site gets to decide who "the people" are, and how are you not susceptible to confirmation bias?
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am 2. It has been proven that the audience score on RT for ROS has been manipulated - you can use google to verify that.
It's been proven that The Last Jedi's audience score was review bombed by weird losers - you can use google to verify that.
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am So fans/ordinary movie goers did not like TLJ neither ROS.
Actually, ordinary movie goers like to shove both legs up their ass and bounce down the stairs -- since obviously we can just make whatever claims we want about a group we refuse to define.
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 amThey are also often bribed by Disney/Hollywood.
Gee, sure would have helped for all their crap live-action remakes. I guess they just didn't care enough about their image to manufacture more opinions to personally disagree with you.
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am After the fiasco of TLJ - they realized that they should not lie because it hurts their credibility and gave ROS realistic scores.
Ah yes, the entire critical film reception to one movie was bribery, but they suddenly turned around after random weirdos online got upset at that movie and...did nothing of consequence to any of them.
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 amSomething they did not for TLJ because of the hype/woke messages/ bribing.
Image
Fweeet fweeet fweeet! We got a live one, everybody.
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am No they won´t
Yeah they will, bro. Nostalgia is a helluva drug. People are already defending trash like Shadow the hedgehog over Colors or Lost World, this is what every fandom does.
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am Wait I though "nothing matters"
Why do you keep quoting things I never said? How dishonest are you going to get?
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am Bad writing is like bad powerscaling - what the inconsistency in character decisions/behavior was for GOT - that is inconsistency in powerscaling/powerjumps for most of Shonen Anime/Dragonball.
Well no, because character decisions and behavior are what Dragon Ball and other shonen anime are about, too. The majority of every story ever written is about characters making decisions and behaving in ways. They're not about power scaling. If they were, nobody would like them because they'd be boring as shit.
Hypersayian wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 4:54 am Sure you can push it here and there - but if something becomes utterly ridiculous and inconsistent - it will destroy/or at least drag down an otherwise sound series.
Dragon Ball has been pushing "utterly ridiculous and inconsistent" for over thirty years. It's full of plot inconsistencies, causality issues and logistical problems, and always has been. We excuse it because it's an action-fantasy comedy series that's good at other things, and none of those things are whatever vague approximation of "power scaling" scrapes your ballsack this week.

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