Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by Majin Buu » Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:49 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:08 pm It’s less that a replacement score would have impacted Dragon Ball’s ratings (which was always going to be worse than Z for the mere fact of how Funimation and Toonami handled it) and more I wouldn’t trust Funimation to do a replacement score for the original Dragon Ball. Since the “comedy” music by Team Mike Smith and Friends was by far the worst most obnoxious aspect of DBZ’s replacement score and would have made up a significant amount of Dragon Ball’s music.
Couldn't agree more. The last time I watched Movie 12 I switched to the dub during the Veku scene out of curiosity and the replacement score completely ruins it due to having a slower tempo and sounding more low-energy than the Kikuchi score, putting it completely at odds with the high-energy wackiness of the scene. The replacement score definitely did not do comedy well; but considering it was tailored around sounding as "hardcore" as possible, it makes sense that it would drop the ball completely when the material isn't lending itself to that.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:47 pm

There's plenty of "hardcore" moments in the first series. I think that a replacement score could have found a decent middle ground somewhere between "comedy" and "hardcore" when it really needed too.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:49 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:47 pm There's plenty of "hardcore" moments in the first series. I think that a replacement score could have found a decent middle ground somewhere between "comedy" and "hardcore" when it really needed too.
You’re missing the point. It’s not that Dragon Ball doesn’t have “hardcore” moments it’s that it’s a mostly comedy series and the comedy music in the Cakemix Studios score is to be blunt Fucking insufferable, cringe, and ear bleeding bad even more so that the action pieces

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by Android19 » Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:52 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:13 am
Brodes wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:59 am
Planetnamek wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:17 am I can see a Viz dub being much like their dub of Sailor Moon-more faithful to the source material, but with more monotone acting.
There's a difference between restrained acting and monotone acting. As you yourself have said many times you're a big fan of the Funi dub (and not because it's good, in your own words, it's what you grew up with). You're confusing being over the top and loud with acting because that's what you expect.
To be fair, the Viz dub of Sailor Moon does have lackluster acting. However, this isn’t true across the board for Viz products. Inuyasha, Ranma 1/2, and Naruto (another Studiopolis dub of theirs) all sound fine. So I don’t see how one can just assume a Viz dub of Dragon Ball (that would have likely also used Ocean Group in this hypothetical situation of taking over from Funimation in the early 2000s) would be closer to their dub of Sailor Moon. Which again, is an outlier.
Yes I really had high hopes for the Sailor Moon redub with Viz's overall solid track record and with the cast they had lined up, but it ended up being a real letdown. It was worth it to finally get Sailor Stars dubbed in the end though, but I think i'll stick with the original dub. Having recently read "Sailor Moon Reflections" i've gotten even more of an appreciation for it after reading about all of the hard work the cast went through with the long hours they worked.
Shaddy wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:42 am
Planetnamek wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:36 am Yes good fucking god it is stupid that you are obsessing this much over me pointing out your posts are badly worded(which they are), i'd hate to think of how you function in the real world if you blow a gasket over something as trivial as this.
Ooh, now who's moving goalposts? I thought you were supposed to be accusing me of stating my opinions as fact, but now you've retreated back to "badly worded", a thing that only you personally have to corroborate. How convenient.

You do not have a moral high ground here, dude. You started this conversation by accusing me of not watching the things I watched because my opinion was different from yours, and fell back on "stating opinions as fact", a thing that, guess what, you have done constantly throughout this very stupid exchange, and are now flip-flopping between whatever positions or insults you can to make me go away.
Planetnamek wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:36 am Seems like you're the one doing the projecting here. Like I said I don't really care if you disagree with me or not, but trying to present your opinions as facts is not on.
So to be clear, if I had agreed with you you would still have had just as big a shitfit? That doesn't sound believable to me.
Planetnamek wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:36 am Never accused you of lying about your own opinion
Well, sure you did. You accused me (and still are) of thinking my opinion is fact, and that would mean I'm lying when I say it's my opinion.
Planetnamek wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:36 am Seems like the only one with delicate sensibilities is you dear boy because i'm not mindlessly agreeing with everything you say, well that's life so deal with it.
Dude, you're the one who got on me for saying a dub was bad. I literally do not care which thing you think is good or bad. The only thing you're against right now is the notion that getting upset for that is stupid, and I gotta say, that's not a battle you're gonna win.
Planetnamek wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:36 am Something tells me i'm much better at actual conversations then you are.
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Hopefully better than you are at sounding humble.
Planetnamek wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:36 am I haven't seen you back up anything.
Look harder then. I said "thing bad", you said "you stated your opinion as fact", I responded "everyone knows it's an opinion", and you have not presented a meaningful rebuttal to that.
Planetnamek wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:36 am I'm not the only one for sure.
Okay, so who else could not distinguish between me stating my opinion and me stating an objective fact? Rest of the thread, your comments are welcome.

Anyone? I'm accepting all callers here.
Planetnamek wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 2:36 am You're not sounding like much of an adult, so you could've fooled me.
So just to be clear here: You are saying a child could fool you?
Whoa geez where did all this hostility come from? :shock: Sounds like somebody needs to take a chill pill.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by Brodes » Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:17 am

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:47 pm There's plenty of "hardcore" moments in the first series. I think that a replacement score could have found a decent middle ground somewhere between "comedy" and "hardcore" when it really needed too.
There is absolutely zero need, ever, at any point in time, for Dragon Ball to have a replacement score just like there was absolutely zero reason for DBZ to have a replacement score. And based on the DBZ replacement score there would have been no middle ground. It would have been awful. Just bottom of the barrel, ear stabbing noise.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:59 am

Brodes wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:17 am There is absolutely zero need, ever, at any point in time, for Dragon Ball to have a replacement score just like there was absolutely zero reason for DBZ to have a replacement score. And based on the DBZ replacement score there would have been no middle ground. It would have been awful. Just bottom of the barrel, ear stabbing noise.
There was zero reason at first maybe, but once DBZ got a replacement score, that opened up the doorway to DB getting one as well. I think I would have preferred a Faulconer soundtrack to what we got, it would have been entertaining at least. Kikuchi sticks out like a sore thumb.

Maybe it would have been awful, but it still might have pulled in the Z dub fans of the time even if only slightly so. You'd be surprised at the effect a soundtrack can have on viewers.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by Shaddy » Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:23 am

Android19 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:52 pm Whoa geez where did all this hostility come from? :shock: Sounds like somebody needs to take a chill pill.
Look back a couple pages and you can see exactly where it came from. Though frankly, I don't think I'm in the wrong all that much for not being very receptive to a guy starting shit with me for basically no reason.

But enough talk about banned drama.
MyVisionity wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:59 am There was zero reason at first maybe, but once DBZ got a replacement score, that opened up the doorway to DB getting one as well.
It doesn't, actually. Entirely replacing the score is a bad decision in any localization, even if the Z replacement score had been good. Setting a precedent isn't a justification, otherwise we'd be claiming every Japanese-to-English translation needs to have its music changed and atmosphere and tone completely gutted.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by Brodes » Fri Aug 06, 2021 8:21 am

Shaddy wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:23 am
Android19 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:52 pm Whoa geez where did all this hostility come from? :shock: Sounds like somebody needs to take a chill pill.
Look back a couple pages and you can see exactly where it came from. Though frankly, I don't think I'm in the wrong all that much for not being very receptive to a guy starting shit with me for basically no reason.

But enough talk about banned drama.
MyVisionity wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:59 am There was zero reason at first maybe, but once DBZ got a replacement score, that opened up the doorway to DB getting one as well.
It doesn't, actually. Entirely replacing the score is a bad decision in any localization, even if the Z replacement score had been good. Setting a precedent isn't a justification, otherwise we'd be claiming every Japanese-to-English translation needs to have its music changed and atmosphere and tone completely gutted.
Well, I'm going to have nightmares about Evangelion with a Faulconer-like score now. But you are entirely correct. And wouldn't this also extend to anything? Plenty of dubs used to leave episodes out or cut them down or combine them. Sine if those good ratings, should that happen still, just because a precedent was set? No thanks.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by Majin Buu » Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:22 am

MyVisionity wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:59 am Maybe it would have been awful, but it still might have pulled in the Z dub fans of the time even if only slightly so. You'd be surprised at the effect a soundtrack can have on viewers.
I don't think the Toonami crowd that fell in love with the Z dub would have accepted pre-Z Dragon Ball even with a replacement score. To them, pre-Z Dragon Ball is just too radically different from Z which (an argument that ignores the Piccolo Daimao and 23rd Budokai arcs). Remember, these are the types of fans that typically argue that the Kikuchi score fits pre-Z Dragon Ball but not Z.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:33 am

Majin Buu wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:22 am
MyVisionity wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:59 am Maybe it would have been awful, but it still might have pulled in the Z dub fans of the time even if only slightly so. You'd be surprised at the effect a soundtrack can have on viewers.
I don't think the Toonami crowd that fell in love with the Z dub would have accepted pre-Z Dragon Ball even with a replacement score. To them, pre-Z Dragon Ball is just too radically different from Z which (an argument that ignores the Piccolo Daimao and 23rd Budokai arcs).
This. Fans/defenders of the replacement score need to stop overstating its importance. Dragon Ball Z was always going to perform well with or without a replacement score. Dragon Ball was always going to do worse than Z especially after Funimation sealed its fate by airing most of Z first . The music never hurt or aided its performance in viewership ratings.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:08 am

Brodes wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:17 am
MyVisionity wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:47 pm There's plenty of "hardcore" moments in the first series. I think that a replacement score could have found a decent middle ground somewhere between "comedy" and "hardcore" when it really needed too.
There is absolutely zero need, ever, at any point in time, for Dragon Ball to have a replacement score just like there was absolutely zero reason for DBZ to have a replacement score. And based on the DBZ replacement score there would have been no middle ground. It would have been awful. Just bottom of the barrel, ear stabbing noise.
From a business standpoint, there was a reason. Aside from FUNimation's lack of experience at the time, anime was also relatively obscure when they first dubbed DBZ so they didn't wanna accidentally give viewers something they didn't like. They also couldn't afford the original score iirc.

With DBZ being a proven hit with or without the replacement score, they took the risk with Dragon Ball.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:13 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:08 amanime was also relatively obscure when they first dubbed DBZ
This is not true.
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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:37 am

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:08 am
From a business standpoint, there was a reason.
You are right about this part. There was a business reason. “With our own score we can make royalties every second it’s heard”- Gen Fukunaga
Aside from FUNimation's lack of experience at the time, anime was also relatively obscure when they first dubbed DBZ so they didn't wanna accidentally give viewers something they didn't like.
It wasn’t as mainstream as it was once it hit Toonami in 1998 but even during the Saban days Gen Fukunaga’s stated reason for not wanting to release official subtitles is because the market was oversaturated with fansubs. There was newsgroup mostly made up of fans who watched the Japanese show first. It was not really obscure. Also it’s already international success elsewhere.


They also couldn't afford the original score iirc.
This bullshit lie really needs to die. They always could have used the original score. They simply chose not too because they could make more money using their own score.

With DBZ being a proven hit with or without the replacement score, they took the risk with Dragon Ball.
It wasn’t a risk. By 2001 Dragon Ball Z was the only Toonami anime still using replacement music. Even Sailor Moon switched to the original music the year prior. Toonami viewers would have already heard Shunsuke Kikuchi’s music back in 1999 when they aired Dead Zone and World Strongest. Funimation themselves used the fact that they were keeping the original Japanese music and had a few main voices (Goku, Turtle, Pilaf, and Shu) selected by fans as their PR for the Dragon Ball dub.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:09 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:37 am
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:08 am
From a business standpoint, there was a reason.
You are right about this part. There was a business reason. “With our own score we can make royalties every second it’s heard”- Gen Fukunaga
Aside from FUNimation's lack of experience at the time, anime was also relatively obscure when they first dubbed DBZ so they didn't wanna accidentally give viewers something they didn't like.
It wasn’t as mainstream as it was once it hit Toonami in 1998 but even during the Saban days Gen Fukunaga’s stated reason for not wanting to release official subtitles is because the market was oversaturated with fansubs. There was newsgroup mostly made up of fans who watched the Japanese show first. It was not really obscure. Also it’s already international success elsewhere.


They also couldn't afford the original score iirc.
This bullshit lie really needs to die. They always could have used the original score. They simply chose not too because they could make more money using their own score.

With DBZ being a proven hit with or without the replacement score, they took the risk with Dragon Ball.
It wasn’t a risk. By 2001 Dragon Ball Z was the only Toonami anime still using replacement music. Even Sailor Moon switched to the original music the year prior. Toonami viewers would have already heard Shunsuke Kikuchi’s music back in 1999 when they aired Dead Zone and World Strongest. Funimation themselves used the fact that they were keeping the original Japanese music and had a few main voices (Goku, Turtle, Pilaf, and Shu) selected by fans as their PR for the Dragon Ball dub.
Didn't exactly say it was obscure but it's definitely not as mainstream as it is today. Also like I said, FUNimation didn't know better.
VegettoEX wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:13 am
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:08 amanime was also relatively obscure when they first dubbed DBZ
This is not true.
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A big name newspaper publisher was talking about DBZ like they never watched anime before.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:30 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:09 pm

A big name newspaper publisher was talking about DBZ like they never watched anime before.

Here’s Roger Ebert, THE most mainstream and well known movie critic talking about anime in 1999
https://www.rogerebert.com/roger-ebert/ ... s-the-mind and you’re deluded if you think Dragon Ball Z and Pokemon is how he first heard about anime

https://youtu.be/GEGzjlPk7sM


Here’s the Sci-Fi channel advertising an entire block dedicated to anime in 1995z


Anime wasn’t obscure. The article you shared is just “Will someone think of the children!” fearmongering.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by VegettoEX » Fri Aug 06, 2021 1:36 pm

This part of the conversation is beyond the scope of this thread. Let it be known that the poster in question is incorrect, and that anime was widely known, airing on television (both network and cable), available for purchase and rent in video stores, in comic shops, playing in movie theaters, etc. when FUNimation acquired the license. Please carry on with the intended topic. Thanks!

EDIT: Again, keep things on-topic. Off-topic (factually inaccurate, at that) posts will be removed.
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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by Anonymous Friend » Fri Aug 06, 2021 5:02 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:22 am
MyVisionity wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:59 am Maybe it would have been awful, but it still might have pulled in the Z dub fans of the time even if only slightly so. You'd be surprised at the effect a soundtrack can have on viewers.
I don't think the Toonami crowd that fell in love with the Z dub would have accepted pre-Z Dragon Ball even with a replacement score. To them, pre-Z Dragon Ball is just too radically different from Z which (an argument that ignores the Piccolo Daimao and 23rd Budokai arcs). Remember, these are the types of fans that typically argue that the Kikuchi score fits pre-Z Dragon Ball but not Z.

I can't speak for the entire "crowd", but I was a heavy Toonami/Adult Swim anime fan and after watching OG DB, I felt that it was better overall than Z. I found more enjoyment in the adventures and fights were better paced and choreographed better.. Z had the hype and over the top action. As for score, I quite like the original score. It brings the charm from the time when it was created, and the tones they meant to portay.
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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by MyVisionity » Fri Aug 06, 2021 7:45 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 9:22 am Remember, these are the types of fans that typically argue that the Kikuchi score fits pre-Z Dragon Ball but not Z.
They may have felt differently had they first experienced pre-Z with a Faulconer score instead of Kikuchi.

Also, if Funi had gone with a Dale Kelly-type for Narrator instead of Armstrong I think that would have helped as well.

Toonami could have done a better job of promoting it also, closer to how they did for Z.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:29 pm

I grew up with it back in the day, so I'm the prime target to be nostalgic for it. And yet whenever I hear it these days I'm like "this is awful." I got no nostalgia for it, the Kai dub is better in every way and I cannot go back.

Also, the Faulconer score is terrible. Every time I see someone uploading a DBS or modern movie scene with Faulconer music I cringe. I'll take even take the borked Kikuchi score from Kai over it.

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Re: Opinions on the original Funi Dragon Ball dub

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:21 pm

Planetnamek wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:32 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:31 pm
Planetnamek wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:51 pm snip
I was making a crass joke about skinny white women.
Ah OK my mistake :lol:
Funnily enough 4Kids did actually record a full English version of "We Are" that was shown off at conventions, and it was actually Toei that insisted on them doing an original song, so you have them to thank for that infamous One Piece rap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrHO6DtFJ-Y
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:19 pm
Aim wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:11 pm

I’d be so angry if I was the One Piece creator or Toei if this is what I saw a foreigner do to my creation.
Yeah, it really makes me wonder if Oda saw any of the 4Kids dub back in the day because i'll bet if so he was probably quite mortified by how awful it was and how much the show had been bastardized due to all the rewrites and editing. Thank god FUNi picked it up a few years later because they made an actual good dub which is a world of difference in every respect.

The 4Kids dub was really an unfortunate tragedy, it could've been good but the direction and awful mandated censorship among other things killed it.
Yeah it was a real tragedy. Ironically Funimation was originally considered to dub it before 4Kids(which I learned via DBZ Uncensored 2), but the bad reputation of the DBZ dub in the east made Toei have second thoughts and decide to go with 4Kids instead(plus having a potentially bigger audience due to not requiring people to have cable to watch it was no doubt an enticing prospect).
Shaddy wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:20 am ...One Piece later got a good dub, while Dragon Ball only eventually got to something presentable with Kai, decades after the show ended. Which is better, don't get me wrong, but you're making a false equivalence to fit opinions driven by nostalgia.

Dragon Ball succeeded in spite of it's dub. One Piece didn't fail because of it's dub, it failed because it got fucked around across like three different networks and a bunch of timeslots while never being able to air fully in any of them. 4kids was just as terrible on Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh and Sonic X, yet those shows saw success where One Piece didn't. There is no meaningful difference in quality between any of these dubs, and if you want to equate them to suit a narrative, you have to make sure that narrative is actually consistent.

If you say "Dragon Ball succeeded because of Funi's changes", you're either saying that the show wasn't as good before they fucked with it, or that American children possess the unique trait of thinking bad things are good in a way no other version of the show would be able to capitalize on.
I don't know if a more faithful dub of DBZ would've succeeded, possibly but we'll never know for sure.

4Kids was IMO pretty good on those other shows, heck they are the only reason Sonic X even got a season 3 as the show was not nearly as succesful ratings wise in Japan as it was over here and it had actually originally been cancelled for season 2 in its original run, but it was doing so well on 4kidsTV and CW4Kids that 4kids literally paid the original studio to create a third season.

There was actually one piece of music in the dub of the first Pokemon movie that the original composer found so beautiful that he actually cried, so i'd say that's a pretty strong vote in favor of Pokemon not being nearly as bad as their dub of One Piece. There's a world of difference in quality as those were all dubs 4Kids actually wanted to make, whereas One Piece was something they were only contractually obligated to do.
I love this post its awesome but Sonic X never aired on KidsWB.
Marz wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:27 pm "Well, the chapter was good, the story was good and so were the fights. But a new transformation, in Dragon Ball? And one that's ugly? This is where we draw the line!!! Jump the Shark moment!!"

This forum is so over-dramatic that it's not even funny.
90sDBZ wrote: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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