"Live Action Dragon Ball Z Movie"

[MasenkoHA]

Where was it stated that in order to manipulate ki you need to be a martial artist??

Literally the entire story. Why the hell do you think Kuririn can manipulate ki and Lunch cannot? It’s kind of parts and parcel with the martial arts fantasy thing.

Dodoria can do that too and he is no martial artist.

He is though.

Does that mean that if you don’t manipulate ki you are not a martial artist??

No. All ki users are martial artist not all martial artist are ki users.

Knowing how others fight doesn't make you a martial artist either, which I don't even know if it's the case with the androids, they beat Trunks and they had no idea about his abilities.

No, the point is designing the cyborgs as martial arts is needed to combat f Goku. As opposed to just hoping they can grab him by the neck and pop his head off like a cork without any sort of fighting abilities to speak of.

[Koitsukai]

Where was it stated that in order to manipulate ki you need to be a martial artist??

Literally the entire story. Why the hell do you think Kuririn can manipulate ki and Lunch cannot? It’s kind of parts and parcel with the martial arts fantasy thing.

Dodoria can do that too and he is no martial artist.

He is though.

Does that mean that if you don’t manipulate ki you are not a martial artist??

No. All ki users are martial artist not all martial artist are ki users.

Knowing how others fight doesn't make you a martial artist either, which I don't even know if it's the case with the androids, they beat Trunks and they had no idea about his abilities.

No, the point is designing the cyborgs as martial arts is needed to combat f Goku. As opposed to just hoping they can grab him by the neck and pop his head off like a cork without any sort of fighting abilities to speak of.

Then we clearly have a different concept of what a martial artist is.

[Anonymous Friend]

Is baby Pan a martial artist? I doubt Gohan and Videl gave her any sort of training and yet the baby is using Ki to fly.

[WittyUsername]

I don’t like the idea of calling every single fighter in the series a martial artist. Characters like Goku, Kurirn and Tenshinhan are martial artists for sure, because they trained themselves in the teachings and philosophies of martial arts, but Dr. Gero? He’s a scientist who only has powers because he built a robot body for himself that lets him absorb ki. You might as well call the Pilaf gang martial artists, since they have robot suits that help them fight.

[MasenkoHA]

He’s a scientist who only has powers because he built a robot body for himself that lets him absorb ki.

Doesn’t change that he’s still fighting as a martial artist.

Again being a scientist does not cancel out being a martial artist. There is nothing Gero does that’s fundamentally any different than Goku.

Like I said, you can directly compare the Artificial Humans who show up in Z to Hachan, who is not a a martial artist, and just has his brute strength.

I mean shoot are we going to say Giran isn’t a martial artist?

You might as well call the Pilaf gang martial artists, since they have robot suits that help them fight.

The Pilaf gang are just piloting mechs. It’s not even remotely comparable to the artificial humans.

[LoganForkHands73]

It was cool how #19 and #20 had the visual trappings of a twisted "rival kung fu school" not unlike the Cranes, but I'd say it's a major stretch to call Gero a martial artist. Neither he or his creations have any real technique or philosophy to speak of. The fact that they wield ki doesn't matter much because it wasn't earned, it was artificiality grafted into them. Freeza's men have a slightly better claim to that, though it's still a stretch as we have no idea what kind of training they go through to wield ki, if any. It's more likely that most of Freeza's top enforcers were born freakishly strong enough to wield ki, since training seems to be an alien concept to them. I mean, does Dodoria really fight like a martial artist? He's a dumb brute, plain and simple. Let's say a baby crawls out of the womb and was miraculously born powerful enough to fire a Garlic Gun, would you call it a martial artist? Damn, I just described Z Broly's dumb backstory without even realising it...

Androids #17 and #18 can easily be called martial artists later in the series, as they both show a drive to get stronger through training and self-improvement.

Again being a scientist does not cancel out being a martial artist. There is nothing Gero does that’s fundamentally any different than Goku.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion? Goku and Gero are nothing alike. While you're right that they're not mutually exclusive terms, Gero's status as a scientist vastly outweighs his supposed merit as a martial artist.

[jjgp1112]

Yeah, just because Gero has the powers doesn't really make him a martial artist in my opinion. You wouldn't call an accountant who just so happens to work out a lot and could beat somebody up a bodybuilder, would you? I mean, Gero, Frieza and the others don't even understand how Ki even works. They're brutes with martial arts abilities, but I wouldn't call them martial artists.

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah, just because Gero has the powers doesn't really make him a martial artist in my opinion.

He fights in hand to hand combat and does all the typical martial arts fantasy fare like ki manipulation and move at the speed of light.

I’m sounding like a broken record but again HACHAN is a perfect example of a character with augmented strength who isn’t a martial artist. Even when he’s fighting he’s relying solely on brute strength.

And it would make perfect sense for Gero to design any future models post-Red Ribbon to know Martial Arts since he’s trying to kill a martial artist.

You wouldn't call an accountant who just so happens to work out a lot and could beat somebody up a bodybuilder, would you?

If the accountant also happened to be a bodybuilder I would. But again this is Dragon Ball. Where literally all their Gods and Angels are ALSO martial artist that it becomes a subversion that the Top God and most supreme being of the entire multiverse is actually not a martial artist.

I mean, Gero, Frieza and the others don't even understand how Ki even works. They're brutes with martial arts abilities, but I wouldn't call them martial artists.

They understand it at a very basic level.

[LoganForkHands73]

Yeah, just because Gero has the powers doesn't really make him a martial artist in my opinion. You wouldn't call an accountant who just so happens to work out a lot and could beat somebody up a bodybuilder, would you? I mean, Gero, Frieza and the others don't even understand how Ki even works. They're brutes with martial arts abilities, but I wouldn't call them martial artists.

Yeah, this. If Gero could be called a martial artist, it would be well below titles like "mad scientist", "serial killer", "terrorist" and so on.

I think Gero's misunderstanding of the spiritual aspects of ki is signified by how he only calls it "energy" in Japanese, which the Z-Fighters find laughable. Pretty sure Freeza and his dudes did the same. But to Gero, ki is just some natural resource he thinks he can exploit, which proves to be his undoing.

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah, just because Gero has the powers doesn't really make him a martial artist in my opinion. You wouldn't call an accountant who just so happens to work out a lot and could beat somebody up a bodybuilder, would you? I mean, Gero, Frieza and the others don't even understand how Ki even works. They're brutes with martial arts abilities, but I wouldn't call them martial artists.

Yeah, this. If Gero could be called a martial artist, it would be well below titles like "mad scientist", "serial killer", "terrorist" and so on.

In shocking news: People can be more than one thing!

[MyVisionity]

Yeah, all of these guys are martial artists. They have to be because it's a martial arts manga, so they are martial artists by default.

"Martial arts" isn't exclusive to the popular conception of traditional Eastern forms and systems of fighting. It can refer to any kind of combat routines and training. No, Gero and the others are not martial artists in the way that Goku and company are, but they are martial artists nonetheless.

Anyway, regardless of whether or not the characters are martial artists, the point was that they were all engaged in combat. They were at war with one another, and that meant doing things that may be violent and brutal but not necessarily "evil".

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, just because Gero has the powers doesn't really make him a martial artist in my opinion. You wouldn't call an accountant who just so happens to work out a lot and could beat somebody up a bodybuilder, would you? I mean, Gero, Frieza and the others don't even understand how Ki even works. They're brutes with martial arts abilities, but I wouldn't call them martial artists.

Yeah, this. If Gero could be called a martial artist, it would be well below titles like "mad scientist", "serial killer", "terrorist" and so on.

In shocking news: People can be more than one thing!

There is no way you're both a human being AND a forum user! Impossible!

[MasenkoHA]

Yeah, this. If Gero could be called a martial artist, it would be well below titles like "mad scientist", "serial killer", "terrorist" and so on.

In shocking news: People can be more than one thing!

There is no way you're both a human being AND a forum user! Impossible!

I’m actually three kids in a trench coat

[JulieYBM]

In shocking news: People can be more than one thing!

There is no way you're both a human being AND a forum user! Impossible!

I’m actually three kids in a trench coat

Damn, you get THREE kids?

[PurestEvil]

In shocking news: People can be more than one thing!

There is no way you're both a human being AND a forum user! Impossible!

I’m actually three kids in a trench coat

Go home, Goten, trunks, and Pan

[90sDBZ]

I disagree with the notion that someone like Gero is a martial artist. The word "artist" implies that someone has spent significant time honing their craft. I doubt Gero trained a day in his life.

The idea that every character who ever engaged in hand-to-hand combat is a martial artist is silly, and potentially meme worthy. It reminds me of the Norman Osborn "I'm something of a scientist myself" meme. Like a random kid getting into a scuffle at school and then saying "I'm something of a martial artist myself".

A lot of dub fans view the show as a superhero/sci-fi series, and only watched Z. Others go to extremes to counter argue this by claiming every single character who ever fought is a martial artist, and the show is 100% only about martial arts.

[WittyUsername]

I disagree with the notion that someone like Gero is a martial artist. The word "artist" implies that someone has spent significant time honing their craft. I doubt Gero trained a day in his life.

The idea that every character who ever engaged in hand-to-hand combat is a martial artist is silly, and potentially meme worthy. It reminds me of the Norman Osborn "I'm something of a scientist myself" meme. Like a random kid getting into a scuffle at school and then saying "I'm something of a martial artist myself".

A lot of dub fans view the show as a superhero/sci-fi series, and only watched Z. Others go to extremes to counter argue this by claiming every single character who ever fought is a martial artist, and the show is 100% only about martial arts.

If nothing else, the emphasis on martial arts feels less significant as the series goes on. Obviously, describing Dragon Ball as a superhero story is a stretch, but the Z portion of the series does feel slightly more “Western” than the stuff that came before it. That’s not to say that the Eastern influences aren’t still apparent, but the Cell arc in particular has some pretty obvious similarities to the Terminator franchise.

[90sDBZ]

If nothing else, the emphasis on martial arts feels less significant as the series goes on. Obviously, describing Dragon Ball as a superhero story is a stretch, but the Z portion of the series does feel slightly more “Western” than the stuff that came before it. That’s not to say that the Eastern influences aren’t still apparent, but the Cell arc in particular has some pretty obvious similarities to the Terminator franchise.

If anthing the show is just as much about general athleticism as it is martial arts, even pre-Z. It's ultimately strength training that makes the biggest difference in fights. Roshi didn't even bother teaching Goku and Krillin fighting technique, and instead gave them insane strength and cardio sessions. Goku's training on the way to Namek was largely bodybuilding.

Guys like Gero and Dodoria may use ki attacks, but they appear pretty inept at hand to hand, lacking finesse in their technique. They get by on brute force.

[Yuli Ban]

I disagree with the notion that someone like Gero is a martial artist. The word "artist" implies that someone has spent significant time honing their craft. I doubt Gero trained a day in his life.

The idea that every character who ever engaged in hand-to-hand combat is a martial artist is silly, and potentially meme worthy. It reminds me of the Norman Osborn "I'm something of a scientist myself" meme. Like a random kid getting into a scuffle at school and then saying "I'm something of a martial artist myself".

A lot of dub fans view the show as a superhero/sci-fi series, and only watched Z. Others go to extremes to counter argue this by claiming every single character who ever fought is a martial artist, and the show is 100% only about martial arts.

"Dr. Gero was not a martial artist"

He literally rebuilt his body for the sole purpose of facing off against Son Goku. He fights using heavily theatrical hand-to-hand combat that follows a set pattern of skill that reflects his new body. He may not have been a martial artist before Dragon Ball Z, but as #20, he is indeed a martial artist villain. I mean for god's sake, he practically looks like a demented Dr. Wily-wannabe clown version of a white-haired xian.

"The idea that every character who ever engaged in hand-to-hand combat is a martial artist is silly"

WHAT SHOW ARE YOU WATCHING

WHAT DO YOU THINK MARTIAL ARTS ARE

WHEN HAVE MAJOR CHARACTERS IN THE SERIES NOT USED MARTIAL ARTS? REALLY, I WANT TO KNOW.

"A lot of dub fans view the show as a superhero/sci-fi series, and only watched Z. Others go to extremes to counter argue this by claiming every single character who ever fought is a martial artist, and the show is 100% only about martial arts."

Analogy:
"A lot of idiots say water is dry. Others go to extremes to counter argue that water is wet. Neither is right."
What about that statement makes any sense? One is objectively wrong. The other is objectively right. There is no debate about this.
What the dub fans falsely interpret from an eviscerated, heavily censored butchered dub makes no difference to what Dragon Ball actually is— and let me stress again, ACTUALLY FACTUALLY IS= a martial arts fantasy comic/cartoon.

The fact the show devolves into loops of characters punching and kicking— you know, using superhuman martial arts— never even began to change that fact.

So what if it uses trappings of the Terminator? It filters the Terminator through martial arts fantasy. That's what the series has always been and still is. FUNimation transforming it into the show about Kung Fu Space Jesus and his mighty glowing Justice League isn't relevant.

It's like saying "Lord of the Rings can't possibly be a fantasy story because some of the characters use technology and Saruman wanted to start an industrial revolution, so clearly while it's not science fiction, it's also not fantasy." WHAT.

THIS:







Is also martial arts fantasy!!

Yeah, it might look something like what superhero stories are like, but that's really convergent evolution. When you're dealing with superhumans who can fly and shoot energy blasts from their hands, whether that's from Kryptonian superpowers or hyper-cultivated ki, it's going to look similar. DBZ/GT/Super/Heroes all remain distinctly within the martial arts tradition.

Man... I'm sorry for being so aggressive, but Jesus. I see why Kunzait's become so bitter. This incessant need to keep trying to make Dragon Ball— a gratuitously, almost offensively Chinese fantasy story that the original Japanese version never attempt to skirt around— into something more Western just because the Funi dub made it seem that way and Marvel & DC movies exist and do similar things really is annoying. And what's sad is that Western properties DID influence Dragon Ball. It's not like Toriyama never heard of Western media.
The problem isn't that Toriyama never looked West— it's that it feels like most people on Kanzenshuu never bothered looking East. Everyone's just content with the same pop cultural bubble of superhero movies, shonen anime, and maybe one or two kung fu/wuxia movies here and there and that's it.

Nothing about "Dragon Ball Z isn't all about martial arts" makes even a tenth of an iota of sense when you look at it from both an Eastern AND Western perspective. That's not even an argument. And yeah, not everyone who fights in Dragon Ball is necessarily a martial artist... because there are a fuckton of characters who are, at some point, hostile to the senshi. But if that character's using choreographed-esque fighting moves and not just a bully throwing fists, they're a martial artist. I don't know how to stress this enough. And that's 99/100 characters characters have faced off against. Whether it be Eastern or Western martial arts (yes, things like boxing and wresting are widely considered "martial arts" in a technical sense; heck, real wrestling is considered one of the oldest forms of grappling martial artistry)

[MyVisionity]

The word "artist" implies that someone has spent significant time honing their craft.

That's not the only meaning of "artist". It also means simply someone that practices a certain craft, training or not. Gero and Freeza's army all practice some form of martial arts.

Roshi didn't even bother teaching Goku and Krillin fighting technique, and instead gave them insane strength and cardio sessions.

Guys like Gero and Dodoria may use ki attacks, but they appear pretty inept at hand to hand, lacking finesse in their technique. They get by on brute force.

All of those "strength and cardio sessions" that Roshi gave them? That's called martial arts. Digging the fields, delivering the milk, wearing the shells, all of that is traditional martial arts training that goes back centuries and centuries. Martial arts is *definitely* not just about fighting technique. Not by a long shot.

The fact that Gero and Dodoria even use Ki attacks to begin with shows that they are martial artists. And finesse isn't a requirement for being a martial artist. Brute force can do the trick.