What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

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What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by super michael » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:31 am

I want to hear the mistakes that Dragon Ball RoF did.

In my opinion I think having Krillin fight in RoF over C18 who is stronger along with infinity was really dumb, there was no reason for Krillin to go while C18 stays with Marron. It should have been Krillin stays with Marron and C18 fights the invasion.

Majin Buu hibernating was really bad, never in DBZ was it hinted that Majin Buu needs to sleep for months, just a few seconds sleeping was enough to fully energise Buu.

Goten and Trunks forbidden from knowing about the invasion due to them being childish, but somehow no one has a problem with Bulma acting all childish towards Freeza and being arrogant.

Goku in SSB was KO by a ring laser, while in DB Goku was shot and even shot off guard that never KO Goku at all or left him near dead.

I recall Freeza saying he would raise his power level to 1 million, when that sounds like a mistake. In Namek Saga Freeza 2nd form had 1 million over and his final form was 120 million.

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by Trouser » Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:56 am

Freeza's four months of training that gives him "god tier" powers. We don't know what he did but in Super it's even worse (torturing Tagoma? What the...?).

"Krillin stays with Marron and C18 fights the invasion" I agree. But what irks me the most is Roshi. What the hell? Yamcha should be the one fighting, and not that old geezer who's power was reduntant since ending of the original DB anime.

Piccolo as a babysitter is nice idea but I don't like his role in the invasion. He should have zero problems with Shisami.

Gohan "forgetting" or "not being sure" if he can still go Super Saiyan...

Goten and Trunks... They should know about Freeza's invasion and they at least should show up. Their absence makes that much sense as Bulma's presence.

"Goku in SSB was KO by a ring laser, while in DB Goku was shot and even shot off guard that never KO Goku at all or left him near dead." He should be in his base. But then again, why would he reverse to base in the middle of a fight. This is Freeza. This whole concept of getting KO is stupid.

"Majin Buu hibernating was really bad, never in DBZ was it hinted that Majin Buu needs to sleep for months, just a few seconds sleeping was enough to fully energise Buu." I agree. It was lazy. Bad retcon. They needed excuse to eliminate great warrior so only Goku and Vegeta could shine. Not to mention that they are still using this excuse to this day...

And this is not a "mistake" really, but my prefference: Introducing Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan wasn't neccesary. It was too soon, imo. SSJG should have more time, and I think the best time for introducing Blue would be in Future Trunks Arc as a counterattack against Black's Rose.

RoF is the worst story in the history of Dragon Ball. Even Super 17 Arc is not that bad.
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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:37 am

Are you talking about the movie or the DBS anime arc?
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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by super michael » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:39 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:37 am Are you talking about the movie or the DBS anime arc?
I had the movie in mind, but I think both would be good to get discussed here.

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:53 am

Hooooo boy. I think perhaps the biggest failing of the movie is how little it does to justify its own premise. It feels like Toriyama just said "Freeza's back" and didn't really know where to go from there. The structure is very odd. Rewatching the film a while back, I was surprised at how dialogue-heavy this one is, even though it's ostensibly the one that's meant to have more action compared to Battle of Gods. Barring the awesome Z-Warriors vs. Freeza Force gauntlet, the action isn't really that riveting either. I consider Goku vs. Golden Freeza to be one of the most underwhelming final battles in the series. They just pummel each other until one of them falls down. The choreography is so flat and uninspired -- I don't know how many times they repeat the "Freeza gets knocked back into a rock then charges back out" pattern. There's also that one bit where Goku and Freeza move over to some crater for no discernible reason?

I don't mind the explanation of Freeza's mysterious training getting him to a godly level, it makes you think how terrifying he could be if he had Goku's work ethic. However, Freeza himself doesn't feel like an engaging character here. He has exactly one setting -- murderous grudge against Goku. Meanwhile, Goku and Vegeta are given the news of Freeza's return and within 30 seconds are already meeting him with barely any time to grasp the situation. That said, I do enjoy some of Goku's banter with Freeza, and Vegeta's excellent beatdown on Freeza almost makes up for the lacklustre fight that precedes it. But whereas BOG ended with huge, immediate ramifications for the setting, ROF ends with the status quo effectively unchanged, barring some glossy new transformations and the fact that Goku and Vegeta are now officially training under Whis. Some later stuff in Super like Freeza's second return retroactively justifies his return in the movie somewhat, but that doesn't directly improve the movie's quality.

There's also a whole lotta arbitrary stuff in this film. There's no real justifiable reason why Buu, #18, Goten, Trunks, Yamcha, Chaozu or even Videl couldn't join in the fight against the FF, except to add artificial tension with the weaker Z-Warriors struggling against garden variety mooks. Freeza's threat level goes down the toilet when he spends so long gabbing to the heroes instead of... ya know, killing them, like he intended to way back in the Android arc. Sorbet gunning down SSGSS Goku is, at best, questionable even with the explanation that he let his guard down.

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:39 am

The Freeza thing never bothered me the same way it seemed to everyone else. He was naturally incredibly powerful and strong so never had to train a day in his life. He finally puts in some effort and gets much stronger and unlocks a higher form. Fair enough.

The Boo thing wasn’t the worst thing HERE. But then Toriyama/Toyotara/Toei/whoever I need to blame did it again in the U6 v U7 tournament and again in the tournament of power which is two times too many to repeat that plot contrivance.

The 18 stays at home thing was dumb and sexist and I get that they wanted Kuririn to be there because he was a major player in the Namek arc but just leave Marron with a babysitter? Chaozu aint doing shit these days

Gohan getting beat down like a chump was fine by me in the Super retelling because it ended up being the catalyst for much needed character development for Gohan making him realize he needs to get back to training if he wants to be able to protect his family from any potential Freeza level threats. And Piccolo finally addressed Gohan’s prone to arrogance whenever he gets a little too much power that ends up being his downfall. But in the movie? Yeah none of that matters and Gohan getting taken down easy is just there to remind you how Toriyama had zero idea what to do with him after deciding Goku was better suited as a lead.


And Super Saiyan Blue is just dumb. Not because it’s a blue recoloring of Super Saiyan but because a big deal is made of needing a ritual just to summon Super Saiyan God powers and now Goku and Vegeta can surpass it because….reasons. And Super Saiyan of a Super Saiyan God sounds like something a 5 year playing DBZ with their friends on the playground would have come up with.

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by dragondyle » Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:41 am

Honestly, my biggest gripe with the film is that they didn't let Vegeta finish off Freeza. That would have been such an amazing character moment that would have finally given him his revenge for what Freeza did to his people. It would have paid off years of anticipation for that kind of match up.
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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by Yuji » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:22 am

On top of everything else everyone has mentioned, Goku's characterization is completely off. I know Goku isn't the kind to hold grudges, but Freeza has always been an exception. He witnessed firsthand Freeza wouldn't accept his good will in the Namek arc and he should have arrived to the battlefield if not angry over what he did in the Namek arc, then at the very least furious about what he's been doing on Earth to his friends and family during the invasion. Instead, he's playing it up like it's some martial arts bout with an old time rival, cracking jokes, being arrogant, all around aloof and nonchalant about the whole thing. This all without getting into the narrative misfire that was his arc this movie, which had repercussions for the rest of the Super revival.

Vegeta's handling, too, was odd, as they treat the beat where Freeza offers Vegeta a job back in the army as a serious scene worthy of consideration, as if the characters were all still stuck in the past where this kind of heel turn could be an even remote possibility. Freeza shouldn't want Vegeta back, either, after what happened on Namek. This movie also makes the unfortunate decision to bring back Vegeta into the spotlight as Goku's rival and the deuteragonist of the series to come, which I fear shows an inability to move on from the old cast and bring in new characters like the series had always traditionally done. This was also present in BoG but it was more subdued as it was clearly a Goku-focused film.

In general, ignoring all plot contrivances, the lackluster animation and choreography, the biggest flaw of the film is that Toriyama was seemingly harkening back in terms of characterization to a Cell arc-esque period, or an amalgam of DBZ's heyday, instead of writing these characters and story from where they left off at the ending of the Boo arc.

I enjoy the anime version a bit more than the movie since it fixes some issues, like juggling Goku’s anger towards Freeza's past and present actions with his desire for a good fight, and Freeza's proposal to Vegeta coming at an earlier, less dramatic time in the script and being literally laughed off for the joke that it was, among other small changes. It is still a bad arc in my eyes but if it weren't for the poor animation and pacing I would reckon most fans would take it over the movie any time of the week.

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:37 am

It’s just an all around hollow movie that has nothing to offer other than cheap fanservice. It’s not even exciting or entertaining. It’s almost completely devoid of tension and a good chunk of it is just the characters delivering really boring exposition, much of which is stuff that fans of the series already know about. I would also say that Beerus and Whis were already getting stale at that point. They were refreshing characters in BoG, but their shtick about being obsessed with Earth food really isn’t funny enough to justify devoting several scenes to it.

I can’t even think of anything about the movie I particularly like. Even the animation isn’t that good for a feature film. The CGI in particular is atrocious.

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by JulieYBM » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:40 am

Hiring Yamamuro to work on the film, having zero character arcs for the characters besides Gokuu and having the most god awful fighting I've ever seen in a Japanese animated film.

I'm so tired of seeing the side characters fight when they don't have arcs to be invested in. They don't even try to justify themselves with good animation because of Yamamuro's nonsensical directing and animation supervision.
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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by Jack Bz » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:57 am

The following is about the film version.

The art style and the animation is the movie's biggest failing. Especially when I read stuff about Yamamuro correcting other animators and them being very unhappy with his corrections. The film is incredibly grey and lifeless, with mostly bad fighting choreography.

I actually don't mind the premise but I think it is too light hearted and simple to warrant a feature film (maybe something like a TV special is more appropriate for this plot). Toriyama was still in the phase where he imagined everything that happened between boo and end of Z was light hearted and there wasn't any real danger, so the whole thing has a sense of levity. You can see this continuing with the U6 arc in super, but then I guess Toriyama realised that if Super is going to keep going it can't be light hearted forever.

I love the overall lesson that Freeza is a martial arts scrub and will always be a martial arts scrub. He is a guy born with so so much power and doesn't even know how to use it, from not even being able to sense ki in Dragon Ball and having to supress his power with weaker forms, to gaining a new form in this film and not even noticing that it drains his energy until he has it explained to him. I like how the whole thing is just an extended training session for Goku and Vegeta.

I love Goku stealing the kill from Vegeta. For me it's classic Dragon Ball comedy. Goku interrupting Vegeta and Freeza's conversation with a huge out of nowhere kamehameha always makes me chuckle. From Vegeta's perspective it's so confusing and uncalled for, and Freeza would never expect anything like that from the guy who initially tried to spare his life on namek.

In summary: uninteresting art and animation, grey and dreary, probably too light hearted of a premise to base a feature film about, some funny/good character moments. Intentionally framed as an unimportant story in my opinion, until Freeza comes back for the ToP.

As for the anime: I consider it the absolute low point in Dragon Ball history because of the animation and extra fluff that detracts heavily from the original. I remember legit being bummed out at this stage when the anime was new, wondering how it was so bad. Was glad that things got considerably better later.

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:47 pm

I agree with pretty much everybody in this thread.

At first, I wasn't happy with Freeza becoming that much stronger out of the blue, but now I don't care so much.

Freeza's invasion could've been much more interesting than just 1,000 soldiers fighting 5 guys on a cliff. I liked Toyo's take in the Moro arc, with the henchmen attacking different parts of the world and our guys having to fight separately.
Roshi shouldn't be fighting anymore, Piccolo should not have that much trouble with fodder, Gotenks, 18 and Buu should've joined the fight.
Freeza could've had a few new strong fighters, too. Why come to Earth and see your weaklings get killed instead of doing the killing yourself?

The fighting was boring to me, I disliked the whole Goku vs Freeza fight, except for the 1-inch punch Goku did, and Vegeta's beatdown on Freeza, who should've been killed by Geets.

The animation was subpar to me, it hasn't aged well at all, I watch RoF and I can only see the worst of DBS. The colours, the designs... aggh.

What I did like were the non-fighting sequences. Training with Whis, Bulma and Jaco, Capsule Corp., Freeza and his crew... but the action part? not at all.

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by pepd » Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:31 pm

"Piccolo is having a hard time against Shisami, the best warrior in Freeza’s army."

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by ABED » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:20 pm

It has nothing to do with Freeza coming back stronger in a short time. The substantive problem is that he came back at all. To compound the issue, he's defeated for the same reason - Freeza's full power burned him out to quickly.
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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:33 pm

ABED wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 5:20 pm It has nothing to do with Freeza coming back stronger in a short time. The substantive problem is that he came back at all. To compound the issue, he's defeated for the same reason - Freeza's full power burned him out to quickly.
While Freeza coming back in the first place always seemed like a cynical fanfic concept, they still could’ve churned out something at least halfway decent with it. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem like they even tried.

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by BWri » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:24 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:53 am I don't mind the explanation of Freeza's mysterious training getting him to a godly level, it makes you think how terrifying he could be if he had Goku's work ethic.
...
Some later stuff in Super like Freeza's second return retroactively justifies his return in the movie somewhat, but that doesn't directly improve the movie's quality.
See, I think Super would flow much better without RoF and his later return would be more impactful if this movie/arc just didn't exist. His later reintroduction feels like a better re-introduction than RoF. And we'd get to skip the sentient meat pieces section of the story *shudders*.

So, if RoF is skipped and later Goku recommends bringing Freeza back, Whis could give him the whole training crash course that he gave Goku and Vegeta, but Frieza would likely progress much much faster. On top of making Frieza's strength gains make a little more sense, the change also adds an interesting new dynamic for Goku, Vegeta, and Frieza. If on his own he could get as strong as he did in four months, I'm sure Whis could train him to be the strongest on the team in two days.
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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:42 pm

BWri wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:24 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:53 am I don't mind the explanation of Freeza's mysterious training getting him to a godly level, it makes you think how terrifying he could be if he had Goku's work ethic.
...
Some later stuff in Super like Freeza's second return retroactively justifies his return in the movie somewhat, but that doesn't directly improve the movie's quality.
See, I think Super would flow much better without RoF and his later return would be more impactful if this movie/arc just didn't exist. His later reintroduction feels like a better re-introduction than RoF. And we'd get to skip the sentient meat pieces section of the story *shudders*.

So, if RoF is skipped and later Goku recommends bringing Freeza back, Whis could give him the whole training crash course that he gave Goku and Vegeta, but Frieza would likely progress much much faster. On top of making Frieza's strength gains make a little more sense, the change also adds an interesting new dynamic for Goku, Vegeta, and Frieza. If on his own he could get as strong as he did in four months, I'm sure Whis could train him to be the strongest on the team in two days.
But why would Goku even think of Freeza when last time he saw him he defeated him four Super Saiyan transformations again? It would be even more contrived than it already was

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by Cold Skin » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:02 pm

^ Exactly. They wouldn't even think that someone as outdated as Freeza would be any useful, he's just old news to them at this point. With the evil Boo not being a possibility, if Goku had to bring back an enemy, it would be Cell, and even that would probably not come to his mind in this situation. To think of Freeza without the movie, they would have to learn from some external source that he is a genius that could catch up quickly instead of witnessing it by themselves.

An interesting point is that some of the negative points you guys mention were modified when going from the movie format to the series format (whether it was well done or done is another debate). Could it be that Toei themselves considered those were points that needed to be improved?

- Goku does return to base form before being struck by the laser, with his face going back to a daily, carefree expression, making him more obvious that he has gone back to a very low power level and isn't in "battle mode" at all anymore.

- The kids sense the energy from the fight and get involved even if the adults didn't want that. They don't get to stay though, as they are sent to bring Piccolo's dead body back to the sanctuary as soon as Goku arrives.

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by desu » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:11 pm

Where do I even begin? Lol
From it's roots, RoF was a mistake, it feels very out of place after BoG's premise, and iirc Toriyama just wrote the script for the movie since he listened to Maximum the Hormone's F song and liked it, and probably since he still didn't know how to continue after Battle of Gods.
Even then... Resurrecting Frieza is not the worst idea, but a lot of things are executed very poorly:
-Frieza's only motivation is defeating Goku. You would think he learned from getting killed on Earth by Trunks, but he didn't. What happened to conquering the universe? And then, what was the point of coming to Earth with 1000 soldiers if you just wanted to kill Goku? You could've easily come alone or with little to no soldiers like in the Broly movie, and search Goku to kill him. Basically they should've made Frieza have other motivations, other than killing Goku.

-Frieza trains for 4 months and is suddenly God level. The problem isn't really the 4 months of training, but rather the way Frieza trained. They showed us nothing of Frieza's training, on a movie about Frieza becoming stronger... It shouldn't be too hard, this is Dragon Ball and they've done trainings right before. They could've put Frieza to train in a planet with extreme conditions, where time runs slower, make him do mental image training and methods to make Frieza get even stronger similar to the Ultra Divine Water, they could even make all his soldiers attack him at once with him supressing himself to his "1st form" on purpose. Seeing Frieza training would've been really interesting and they wasted that opportunity twice.

-Frieza's soldiers are pathetic compared to Namek. They could have the already existing soldiers recruit new soldiers in other places of the galaxy. They also did 0 training, why? They could've easily trained along with Frieza to become stronger and they would put more of a fight in the Earth.

-Jaco should've warned with more time so people on Earth could get prepared and train. The Galactic Patrol could've easily heard of Frieza's resurrection if Frieza's soldiers were searching new candidates, thus Jaco comes earlier and warn Bulma. 2 weeks or so would've been enough considering they've got the Room of Spirit and Time. This could also be an excuse to make Roshi stronger.

-Z Fighters vs Frieza soldiers was filler and a boring fight. It was 10 minutes of the Z fighters easily wrecking Frieza's units. Even Shisami, which looked promising got easily defeated by Gohan. It would've been a lot better if they had trained and at least become a bit stronger on different levels. There's soldiers who would've quited Frieza's intense training and wouldn't be too powerful, while others got at least to Ginyu Forces' power level and prove to be more of a problem when fighting together. Then Frieza could've made a new elite to those that reach over 300.000 or so units of power, and that's the soldiers that the likes of Gohan and Piccolo should've handeling.

-Where are Goten, Trunks, Yamcha, 18, Chaotzu...? We had Jaco and Roshi of all things, but we're missing stronger Z Fighters. Goten and Trunks could've fused at some point if things got too out of hand. And the situation being "dangerous" was a bad excuse, more so with Roshi on the battling field. They're the protectors of Earth, and need to be there, besides they've been in similar situations before.

-Tagoma and Shisami, both got wasted, when they could've given us a good Gohan vs Tagoma and Piccolo vs Shisami fight.

-Super Saiyan Blue was introduced too soon, it would've made more sense to master Super Saiyan God first. Vegeta's SSG wasn't even shown until the Broly movie which is ridiculous.

-Vegeta should've got the kill. Goku has Instant transmission, he could've easily teleported and stopped a weakened Frieza's arm from reaching the ground, tell Vegeta what he was about to do and just let Vegeta finish him off. Vegeta deserves to kill Frieza after everything, it was his moment.

-Oh and I almost forget, why was Goku down easily with that Energy shot? He got a worst injury against Piccolo and was still standing. Even Gohan was shot 9 times by Frieza in the Super Anime and could still stand up and make an effort.

There's other minor problems, such as Beerus being there just so Frieza could see him and for the food, although they're no nearly as bad as what I adressed above IMO. The movie would've been so much better if at least some points I've adressed were fulfilled, they could've adjusted the run time to 2 hours and focus more on Frieza and delete a bit of the more filler scenes like Policeman Krillin.

Meanwhile I'm glad the anime fixed some things, some thanks to the anime not needing to rush through the plot such as:
-Making Tagoma live, train and get stronger. Props for him being the only Frieza soldier to do this.

-Bringing Ginyu back. This is something I thought I wouldn't like but it at least gave a bit of more tension compared to the movie. It didn't make any sense that he got used to Tagoma's power too quickly compared to how long it took him to get used to Goku's body though.

-Extending Goku and Vegeta's trainings. It's something I really enjoyed, especially the SSB glimpse and training inside Whis' staff to get used to the God Ki.

-Connecting Battle of Gods arc to Resurrection of F arc, really liked Vegeta coming to train first.

-Piccolo's death. It's a copy-paste from his Saiyan saga death, but at least someone dies.

-Gohan is a bit more important in the anime than in the movie. I liked how Goku had more trouble coming to Earth. But you know what would've been really cool? Seeing Gohan get a rage boost from Piccolo's death, turn SSJ2 and do a surprise attack to Frieza, at least make him land 3 or 4 solid hits to him, then make Goku save him. It would've been better than a power-up scene and still serve the same purpose.

-Goten & Trunks are there, but it's so forced ugh. At least Frieza saw them.

-Vegeta kills the last of Ginyu force.

-Goku is relaxed when he gets shooted. In the movie it made a lot less sense, although I wish they explained Sorbet's laser ring had Frieza's power or something, it would make even more sense.

-Vegeta SSB vs Golden Frieza is extended, really enjoyed seeing Frieza's leg break and him getting punched in the face.

Ofc with the anime comes other problems, like the bad coreography of the fights throughout and bad art/animation, but other than the fights, I found myself enjoying the anime version more.

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Re: What do you think Dragon Ball RoF mistakes are?

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:43 pm

It's an uninspired slog of a movie that takes only the most obvious, boring methods of following on from Battle Of Gods that fails to do anything interesting with the concepts and ideas at play in that movie, it learns all the wrong lessons from that movie, the characters have nothing to do for the most part and are only there for the sake of recognisable faces being present in the fight scenes (a problem that persisted into Super, though Broly is mercifully free of this issue), Freeza himself doesn't come back for any reason other than "uhh... freeza comes back... and uhh... he fights goku. yeah."

It's fundamentally shit on every level, it was ill-conceived from the start, and it should have been immediately thrown away at the story proposal stage, at which point Toei could have proposed Toriyama try something else, and probably the result then would have been pretty good. Instead, Toei just took his first idea because Toriyama can do no wrong and it's super marketable because it's Freeza.

The movie was a mistake, and it's one that -- if Broly is any indication -- was eventually learned from, even if Super ended up making all the same mistakes outside of its filler episodes.
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