Worst character design?

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MasenkoHA
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Re: Worst character design?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:25 am

super michael wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:23 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:15 am How did Goten and Trunks become Super Saiyans again?
Goten and Trunks were born from parents that had Super Saiyan unlocked, unlike Caulifla, Kale, Cabba and Future Trunks.

Goten and Trunks are the first Saiyan born from Super Saiyan parents.
And? We still went from extreme rage to “teehee”

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by super michael » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:34 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:25 am
super michael wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:23 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:15 am How did Goten and Trunks become Super Saiyans again?
Goten and Trunks were born from parents that had Super Saiyan unlocked, unlike Caulifla, Kale, Cabba and Future Trunks.

Goten and Trunks are the first Saiyan born from Super Saiyan parents.
And? We still went from extreme rage to “teehee”
I remember every Saiyan had to go through extreme rage to unlock Super Saiyan that is correct, however like I said Goten and Trunks are unique being that they were born when their parents already had Super Saiyan unlocked.

Goten and Trunks still had to train their fusion to gain Super Saiyan 2/3 in the ROSAT, which is not a easy place to train with its higher gravity and harsh environment. Cabba is ok, since he already had experience with Super Saiyan 1, so there was nothing wrong in him getting Super Saiyan 2. Kale and Caulifla getting Super Saiyan 2/Legendary Super Saiyan without being experienced Super Saiyan 1 user is too much.

Super Saiyan 1 when inexperience gives negative effects that form, it is only when they are experienced and mastered that form that it feels natural like their base form.

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:44 am

They needed them to be semi believable challenges . This isn’t anything new. Like giving Gohan a great hidden power so he could keep up with the cast in Z. Or making Goten and Trunks incredibly powerful so they can keep up. For Christ sake Goten’s entire training consisted of sparring with Chi Chi and Trunks and he’s about on par with Gohan who was trained by Piccolo and Goku.

Universe 6 Saiyans also never had monkey tails so they’re clearly just built different.

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:02 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:04 am Does the actual manga state Gohan was born Age 757 and the Cell Games was age 767?
Indirectly, yes. AGE 788 is the only year mentioned in the manga. Doing calculations based on it, we discover characters' ages and other interesting stuff. Not that we need a statement, though.
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Re: Worst character design?

Post by BWri » Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:48 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 10:13 am
BWri wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:39 am
Cursed Lemon wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:15 am All I'm saying is that 11-year-old Gohan looked like this:
*9/10 year old Gohan. Gohan definitely looked older for his age though. That image makes him look even older than 11.
Gohan was 10 during the Cell Games. 11 physically.

The Artificial Human / Cell arc took place 6 years after the beginning of Z.
That's the dub ages. He was 9 before going in, 10 physically.
MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:44 am They needed them to be semi believable challenges . This isn’t anything new. Like giving Gohan a great hidden power so he could keep up with the cast in Z. Or making Goten and Trunks incredibly powerful so they can keep up. For Christ sake Goten’s entire training consisted of sparring with Chi Chi and Trunks and he’s about on par with Gohan who was trained by Piccolo and Goku.
After seeing what Roshi can do in Super, Chi-Chi might be several times stronger than she was at the end of the 23rd TB which would in turn make her a better sparring partner for Goten. Add to that sparring sessions with Trunks and you can kind of excuse how strong the boys get.
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Re: Worst character design?

Post by super michael » Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:17 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:44 am They needed them to be semi believable challenges . This isn’t anything new. Like giving Gohan a great hidden power so he could keep up with the cast in Z. Or making Goten and Trunks incredibly powerful so they can keep up. For Christ sake Goten’s entire training consisted of sparring with Chi Chi and Trunks and he’s about on par with Gohan who was trained by Piccolo and Goku.

Universe 6 Saiyans also never had monkey tails so they’re clearly just built different.
I don't believe Goten and Trunks ever had tail at all, when Trunks was born we never saw a tail on him.

Trunks trained with Vegeta and we know he trained with Vegeta during peace time before any tournament was announced. We know Trunks sparred with Goten from time to time and we know Goten was taught by Chi Chi who knew Master Roshi fighting style.

Gohan was written to have high potential due to his hybrid nature, while Goten and Trunks was born from Super Saiyan parents.
There is nothing special with Universe 6 Saiyans.

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:40 pm

super michael wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:17 pmI don't believe Goten and Trunks ever had tail at all, when Trunks was born we never saw a tail on him.
But it's not like we actually see the moment Trunks is born, so we have no way to know it. Kuririn asks what happened to Trunks' tail but no answer was provided. So it's up in the air if he ever had a tail or not.

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by super michael » Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:49 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:40 pm
super michael wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:17 pmI don't believe Goten and Trunks ever had tail at all, when Trunks was born we never saw a tail on him.
But it's not like we actually see the moment Trunks is born, so we have no way to know it. Kuririn asks what happened to Trunks' tail but no answer was provided. So it's up in the air if he ever had a tail or not.

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I guess your right we don't see when Trunks is born and in the manga we are never given a answer. I really doubt Vegeta would approve removing Trunks tail. I guess the only other choice is if there was a interview with Toriyama or a guide book that answers if Goten and Trunks ever had a tail or not.

I think Kaboom might know about this, however how can I notify him? So far I only know how to notify member by quoting their post.

Edit we got to see Bra born in DBS and she wasn't born with a tail.

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Jun 17, 2021 3:24 pm

But didn't Vegeta take off and left Bulma knocked up? He probably wasn't even there.

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:00 pm

super michael wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:17 pm]

I don't believe Goten and Trunks ever had tail at all, when Trunks was born we never saw a tail on him.
Yeah that’s absolutely irrelevant. Goten and Trunks lacking tails could be chalked up to being half saiyans. I think Toriyama even ended up using that as a handwave iirc. Cabba not having a tail and being confused at the prospect of having a tail when Goku ask about it means universe 6 Saiyans don’t have tails ergo they evolved differently than universe 7 Saiyans

Trunks trained with Vegeta and we know he trained with Vegeta during peace time before any tournament was announced. We know Trunks sparred with Goten from time to time and we know Goten was taught by Chi Chi who knew Master Roshi fighting style.
Chi Chi retired from fighting after Gohan was born and only picked it back up to train Goten. It’s one thing for Goten to be reasonably strong compared to Goku or Gohan at a similar age it’s another for him to be strong as he is which is clearly just an excuse for him and Trunks to not be way behind their dads and Gohan.


Gohan was written to have high potential due to his hybrid nature, while Goten and Trunks was born from Super Saiyan parents.
Right, and that is all clearly an excuse to allow those characters to be on the level with the established cast.

It’s not useful for Gohan to start out around Goku’s power level in the beginning of Dragon Ball so he conveniently has a hidden power so he’s able to participate in battles of the current threat level. Same with Goten and Trunks becoming Super Saiyans at their age so they’re caught up with the adults.

There is nothing special with Universe 6 Saiyans.
They never had tails and they aren’t inclined to brutal violence. So clearly they are built different than universe 7 Saiyans. If you can accept “Gohan is 1000x stronger than Goku at a comparable age because hybrid” and “Goten and Trunks became Super Saiyans because they were conceived by Super Saiyans” then why is it so hard to accept “universe 6 Saiyans had a different evolution path so it’s easier for them to become Super Saiyans” all of these fall under the same narrative shortcut “We need the new guys up to speed with the veterans”

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by super michael » Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:02 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:00 pm Yeah that’s absolutely irrelevant. Goten and Trunks lacking tails could be chalked up to being half saiyans. I think Toriyama even ended up using that as a handwave iirc. Cabba not having a tail and being confused at the prospect of having a tail when Goku ask about it means universe 6 Saiyans don’t have tails ergo they evolved differently than universe 7 Saiyans
There is no evidence that being half saiyan is what prevent Goten and Trunks from ever having a tail, assuming they never had a tail. Gohan grew his tail multiple times and he is a half saiyan.

However the manga doesn't provide evidence. So we need other source.

If Goten and Trunks never had a tail since the beginning like Bra, then that means they evolved different than U7 Saiyan.

Chi Chi retired from fighting after Gohan was born and only picked it back up to train Goten. It’s one thing for Goten to be reasonably strong compared to Goku or Gohan at a similar age it’s another for him to be strong as he is which is clearly just an excuse for him and Trunks to not be way behind their dads and Gohan.
Chi Chi has skills but lack the power, it would be impossible for Chi Chi to make Goten strong. Chi Chi can teach Goten hand to hand, which won't have anything to do in increasing his power. The core of his power increase would be from Trunks and later on Gohan.
Trunks core increase is from training with Vegeta, which Vegeta had a goal to get Trunks to surpass Gohan.

Goten vs Chi Chi = no power increase just skills
Goten vs Trunks = power increase and skills.
Trunks vs Vegeta = power increase and skills.


Right, and that is all clearly an excuse to allow those characters to be on the level with the established cast.

It’s not useful for Gohan to start out around Goku’s power level in the beginning of Dragon Ball so he conveniently has a hidden power so he’s able to participate in battles of the current threat level. Same with Goten and Trunks becoming Super Saiyans at their age so they’re caught up with the adults.
Maybe they are excuse, however at least they put the efford to show why Gohan was able to become strong and why hybrid Saiyans are different than full blooded saiyan.

They never had tails and they aren’t inclined to brutal violence. So clearly they are built different than universe 7 Saiyans. If you can accept “Gohan is 1000x stronger than Goku at a comparable age because hybrid” and “Goten and Trunks became Super Saiyans because they were conceived by Super Saiyans” then why is it so hard to accept “universe 6 Saiyans had a different evolution path so it’s easier for them to become Super Saiyans” all of these fall under the same narrative shortcut “We need the new guys up to speed with the veterans”
The only thing different we know about Universe 6 Saiyan is that they lack a tail and their base form are really strong. That is literally all the difference. When it comes to transformation there is no difference stated at all.

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:20 pm

super michael wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:02 pm
There is no evidence that being half saiyan is what prevent Goten and Trunks from ever having a tail, assuming they never had a tail. Gohan grew his tail multiple times and he is a half saiyan.
Yes there is. All pure Saiyans (in universe 7 ) have tails. Goten and Trunks either had their tails cut off as infants or they didn’t inherit tails because of their half earthlings side and there is a 50/50 chance for a hybrid.

And again Goten and Trunks not having tails is not relevant to the point that full blooded universe 7 Saiyans DO and full blooded universe universe 6 Saiyans do not.

Maybe they are excuse, however at least they put the efford to show why Gohan was able to become strong and why hybrid Saiyans are different than full blooded saiyan.
What effort? A scene in the anime where Vegeta muses that when Saiyans mixes their blood with earthlings it creates powerful hybrids? The mother of all handwaves.

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by super michael » Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:36 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:20 pm
super michael wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:02 pm
There is no evidence that being half saiyan is what prevent Goten and Trunks from ever having a tail, assuming they never had a tail. Gohan grew his tail multiple times and he is a half saiyan.
Yes there is. All pure Saiyans (in universe 7 ) have tails. Goten and Trunks either had their tails cut off as infants or they didn’t inherit tails because of their half earthlings side and there is a 50/50 chance for a hybrid.

And again Goten and Trunks not having tails is not relevant to the point that full blooded universe 7 Saiyans DO and full blooded universe universe 6 Saiyans do not.

Maybe they are excuse, however at least they put the efford to show why Gohan was able to become strong and why hybrid Saiyans are different than full blooded saiyan.
What effort? A scene in the anime where Vegeta muses that when Saiyans mixes their blood with earthlings it creates powerful hybrids? The mother of all handwaves.
I will agree with you that the reason Goten and Trunks lacks a tail is because they are hybrid and not because they have evolved like Universe 6.

The scene I am talking about is in the manga, heck Nappa was thinking of having a army of hybrid Saiyan, which Vegeta disagree with Nappa plan since they might surpass them and make trouble. Incase your wondering that is chapter 204.

Thanks to that chapter it is why it makes sense for all hybrid to be very powerful.

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:20 pm

super michael wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:36 pm

The scene I am talking about is in the manga, heck Nappa was thinking of having a army of hybrid Saiyan, which Vegeta disagree with Nappa plan since they might surpass them and make trouble. Incase your wondering that is chapter 204.

Thanks to that chapter it is why it makes sense for all hybrid to be very powerful.

You’re right it was from the manga. My mistake. I misremembered it being an anime only scene.

Doesn’t change that it is still a hand wave. Just one coming from Toriyama instead of Toei.

Like WHY would Saiyan blood mixing with earthlings create more powerful hybrids. It doesn’t actually make any logical sense. It’s just a convenient hand wave. Saiyan/Earthling hybrids are way more powerful than Saiyans because…..reasons.

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:46 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:00 pm
super michael wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:17 pm]

I don't believe Goten and Trunks ever had tail at all, when Trunks was born we never saw a tail on him.
Yeah that’s absolutely irrelevant. Goten and Trunks lacking tails could be chalked up to being half saiyans. I think Toriyama even ended up using that as a handwave iirc. Cabba not having a tail and being confused at the prospect of having a tail when Goku ask about it means universe 6 Saiyans don’t have tails ergo they evolved differently than universe 7 Saiyans

Trunks trained with Vegeta and we know he trained with Vegeta during peace time before any tournament was announced. We know Trunks sparred with Goten from time to time and we know Goten was taught by Chi Chi who knew Master Roshi fighting style.
Chi Chi retired from fighting after Gohan was born and only picked it back up to train Goten. It’s one thing for Goten to be reasonably strong compared to Goku or Gohan at a similar age it’s another for him to be strong as he is which is clearly just an excuse for him and Trunks to not be way behind their dads and Gohan.


Gohan was written to have high potential due to his hybrid nature, while Goten and Trunks was born from Super Saiyan parents.
Right, and that is all clearly an excuse to allow those characters to be on the level with the established cast.

It’s not useful for Gohan to start out around Goku’s power level in the beginning of Dragon Ball so he conveniently has a hidden power so he’s able to participate in battles of the current threat level. Same with Goten and Trunks becoming Super Saiyans at their age so they’re caught up with the adults.

There is nothing special with Universe 6 Saiyans.
They never had tails and they aren’t inclined to brutal violence. So clearly they are built different than universe 7 Saiyans. If you can accept “Gohan is 1000x stronger than Goku at a comparable age because hybrid” and “Goten and Trunks became Super Saiyans because they were conceived by Super Saiyans” then why is it so hard to accept “universe 6 Saiyans had a different evolution path so it’s easier for them to become Super Saiyans” all of these fall under the same narrative shortcut “We need the new guys up to speed with the veterans”
Good points.
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Re: Worst character design?

Post by The Monkey King » Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:19 pm

How could I forget about Zeno??

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NOTHING about his design is appealing at all, what an awful ugly character all round.

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:04 pm

Yeah, everything about Zeno is terrible. I would very much take Toribot over him any day. Toribot is simple but kinda works. Zeno's design is terrible, color scheme is ugly, annoying personality. There's literally nothing good going on for him.

I don't like many designs, but Zeno is one of the worst.
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Re: Worst character design?

Post by Hulk10 » Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:30 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:04 pm Yeah, everything about Zeno is terrible. I would very much take Toribot over him any day. Toribot is simple but kinda works. Zeno's design is terrible, color scheme is ugly, annoying personality. There's literally nothing good going on for him.

I don't like many designs, but Zeno is one of the worst.
Indeed. Toribot quite clever actually IMO. But I agree about Zeno.
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Re: Worst character design?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:21 am

Every time I see Zeno I'm like

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Re: Worst character design?

Post by Kuririn-sama » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:44 am

I don't mind Zeno's design. It's not my favorite, but I don't hate it either. The colors are what takes me out of it.

Definitely not a fan of the color choices.
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