Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

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Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by Aim » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:18 am

This is something that’s been bothering me for a while, the Goku Black arc feels like it went and came very quickly with little input from Toriyama.

I commonly wonder how Toriyama’s version of events would go and differ from the anime and Toyotaro’s, especially in regards to Goku Black’s personality. In my opinion, Goku Black’s personality is like Xicor’s from DBAF, which is frustrating, not to mention we barely saw any of Goku’s attacks being used except for a Kamehameha once. In the anime, Rosé is a Goku Black version of Super Saiyan. I wonder if Toriyama’s version would have Goku Black turn SS first in the manga as well?

We do know that Fused Zamasu could be taken on by two SSGSS’s, which makes me wonder if they’d defeat him that way, or if Zamasu would keep healing and they’d tire out and still call for Zeno. To finish off I also wonder how many times Toriyama would make the Dragon Team have to go back to the past and if Goku Black was like anime version in that he could just get stronger randomly or if he had to be healed.

I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts. I know people say Toriyama couldn’t do better, but I think that’s most likely not the case.

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:30 am

Toriyama himself said he couldn't have done better though :think: At least in regards to Zamasu's complex personality and motivations, he said that he wouldn't have been able to properly portray his ideology because he always wrote simplistic pure evil villains, therefore Zamasu, who was the first morally complex villain in his story, would have naturally give him a lot of difficulties.

If Toriyama wrote this arc then Vegito wouldn't have appeared (since that was Toyotaro's idea to please the fans) and Fused Zamasu would have fought against Goku and Vegeta in SSB. However it is important to note that in Toriyama's movies the SSB forms are extremely powerful, so much so that Whis once said that if Goku and Vegeta teamed up they could seriously challenge Beerus. So Fused Zamasu would have been Beerus level at the very least, since he would have required Goku and Vegeta to team up in their strongest forms.

Obviously this has all been retconned and this was all before the introduction of Ultra Instinct, SSB Evolution, etc. Regardless it's interesting how in the movies (written by Toriyama himself) it was indeed said that Goku and Vegeta in SSB could defeat Beerus if they teamed up, meaning that a SSB team-up back then was absolutely Top-tier in power. So if Toriyama wrote this arc he would have the team-up of two SSBs rival Fused Zamasu, who in turn would rival Beerus as per the RoF movie statement.

The ending would remain the same because that was in the actual notes that Toriyama handed over to Toei and Toyotaro. It is he who planned for the whole Future multiverse to be erased after Zamasu became too powerful. What's likely to have happened is that Goku and Vegeta would have destroyed Zamasu's body instead of Trunks (maybe by using Galick Kamehameha like they did in Broly movie), thus causing Zamasu's soul to merge with the cosmos. And the rest is history.

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by Aim » Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:51 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:30 am Toriyama himself said he couldn't have done better though :think: At least in regards to Zamasu's complex personality and motivations, he said that he wouldn't have been able to properly portray his ideology because he always wrote simplistic pure evil villains, therefore Zamasu, who was the first morally complex villain in his story, would have naturally give him a lot of difficulties.

If Toriyama wrote this arc then Vegito wouldn't have appeared (since that was Toyotaro's idea to please the fans) and Fused Zamasu would have fought against Goku and Vegeta in SSB. However it is important to note that in Toriyama's movies the SSB forms are extremely powerful, so much so that Whis once said that if Goku and Vegeta teamed up they could seriously challenge Beerus. So Fused Zamasu would have been Beerus level at the very least, since he would have required Goku and Vegeta to team up in their strongest forms.

Obviously this has all been retconned and this was all before the introduction of Ultra Instinct, SSB Evolution, etc. Regardless it's interesting how in the movies (written by Toriyama himself) it was indeed said that Goku and Vegeta in SSB could defeat Beerus if they teamed up, meaning that a SSB team-up back then was absolutely Top-tier in power. So if Toriyama wrote this arc he would have the team-up of two SSBs rival Fused Zamasu, who in turn would rival Beerus as per the RoF movie statement.

The ending would remain the same because that was in the actual notes that Toriyama handed over to Toei and Toyotaro. It is he who planned for the whole Future multiverse to be erased after Zamasu became too powerful. What's likely to have happened is that Goku and Vegeta would have destroyed Zamasu's body instead of Trunks (maybe by using Galick Kamehameha like they did in Broly movie), thus causing Zamasu's soul to merge with the cosmos. And the rest is history.
Vegetto should have never appeared in my opinion, SSGSS being very powerful was great in my opinion which is why I think Toriyama could easily have done it better. Was it in the script that Zamasu was to merge with the universe? I don’t actually recall him stating that.

I wonder what would have caused Zamasu and Black to fuse, I wonder if Black would have surpassed Vegeta once again like in the anime but then get convinced to fuse once Zamasu is pushed back?

I’m not sure if Toriyama retconned them being more powerful than Berrus, though I do not remember.

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by 90sDBZ » Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:26 am

Vegito appearing made more sense than Goku and Vegeta overpowering Fused Zamasu as individuals.

Toriyama said he thought it would be out of character for them to fuse after Buu, but that statement contradicts certain story events that happened since. They accepted help with the Spirit Bomb, the God Ritual, and even each other as they fought Zamasu side by side. Having them fuse is no different to any of that.

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:08 am

Aim wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:51 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:30 am Toriyama himself said he couldn't have done better though :think: At least in regards to Zamasu's complex personality and motivations, he said that he wouldn't have been able to properly portray his ideology because he always wrote simplistic pure evil villains, therefore Zamasu, who was the first morally complex villain in his story, would have naturally give him a lot of difficulties.

If Toriyama wrote this arc then Vegito wouldn't have appeared (since that was Toyotaro's idea to please the fans) and Fused Zamasu would have fought against Goku and Vegeta in SSB. However it is important to note that in Toriyama's movies the SSB forms are extremely powerful, so much so that Whis once said that if Goku and Vegeta teamed up they could seriously challenge Beerus. So Fused Zamasu would have been Beerus level at the very least, since he would have required Goku and Vegeta to team up in their strongest forms.

Obviously this has all been retconned and this was all before the introduction of Ultra Instinct, SSB Evolution, etc. Regardless it's interesting how in the movies (written by Toriyama himself) it was indeed said that Goku and Vegeta in SSB could defeat Beerus if they teamed up, meaning that a SSB team-up back then was absolutely Top-tier in power. So if Toriyama wrote this arc he would have the team-up of two SSBs rival Fused Zamasu, who in turn would rival Beerus as per the RoF movie statement.

The ending would remain the same because that was in the actual notes that Toriyama handed over to Toei and Toyotaro. It is he who planned for the whole Future multiverse to be erased after Zamasu became too powerful. What's likely to have happened is that Goku and Vegeta would have destroyed Zamasu's body instead of Trunks (maybe by using Galick Kamehameha like they did in Broly movie), thus causing Zamasu's soul to merge with the cosmos. And the rest is history.
Vegetto should have never appeared in my opinion, SSGSS being very powerful was great in my opinion which is why I think Toriyama could easily have done it better. Was it in the script that Zamasu was to merge with the universe? I don’t actually recall him stating that.

I wonder what would have caused Zamasu and Black to fuse, I wonder if Black would have surpassed Vegeta once again like in the anime but then get convinced to fuse once Zamasu is pushed back?

I’m not sure if Toriyama retconned them being more powerful than Berrus, though I do not remember.
What was in the script is that Zamasu would become too powerful and Zeno would have to appear to defeat him. Toei then had him merge with the cosmos while Toyotaro instead gave him infinite cloning capabilities. Would Toriyama find another way to make Zamasu "infinite"'? I don't know, but the point is that Zeno ending him was indeed part of his notes, as was the erasure of the Future timeline. It's kind of the point of the ending too, how Trunks doesn't lose "hope" despite having lost his timeline. So I have no doubt that Toriyama indeed planned for the Future multiverse to be erased.
I wonder what would have caused Zamasu and Black to fuse, I wonder if Black would have surpassed Vegeta once again like in the anime but then get convinced to fuse once Zamasu is pushed back?
That would depend on whether the idea for the Red-Blue switch that Vegeta used was Toriyama's or Toyotaro's. If it was Toyotaro's then Toriyama would probably just write something similar to the anime, where Black manages to get ahead of Vegeta but is forced to fuse once he realizes his Immortal partner can be sealed. And it would be less desperate than how it was in the manga, where Black was seriously threatened by the Red-Blue strategy Vegeta had.
I’m not sure if Toriyama retconned them being more powerful than Berrus, though I do not remember.
It's Beerus who was retconned. Nowadays it's obvious that two SSB fighters are still fodder to him, but back in the RoF movie Whis said that Goku and Vegeta could beat him if they teamed up. Back then their strongest form was SSB.

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by sangofe » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:12 am

Wasn't this arc a collaboration between Toyotaro and Toriyama? I know Vegetto was Toyo's idea but I really haven't heard Toriyama didn't write this arc

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by Aim » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:44 am

90sDBZ wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:26 am Vegito appearing made more sense than Goku and Vegeta overpowering Fused Zamasu as individuals.

Toriyama said he thought it would be out of character for them to fuse after Buu, but that statement contradicts certain story events that happened since. They accepted help with the Spirit Bomb, the God Ritual, and even each other as they fought Zamasu side by side. Having them fuse is no different to any of that.
I disagree. The god ritual was absolutely needed because there was a new level of power that could only be attained that way then, the Genki Dama was a way of getting the people of Earth to deal with their own problem for once and I imagine SSGSS being so powerful that two could match Zamasu would make sense. After all, the difference in Zamasu’s and Goku Black’s power is so vast it shouldn’t be too strong like what we saw in the anime and manga. Without the Kaioshin’s there to give the earrings there shouldn’t have been a fusion. This is why I think Toriyama’s version would have been better.

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by Aim » Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:47 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:08 am
Aim wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:51 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:30 am Toriyama himself said he couldn't have done better though :think: At least in regards to Zamasu's complex personality and motivations, he said that he wouldn't have been able to properly portray his ideology because he always wrote simplistic pure evil villains, therefore Zamasu, who was the first morally complex villain in his story, would have naturally give him a lot of difficulties.

If Toriyama wrote this arc then Vegito wouldn't have appeared (since that was Toyotaro's idea to please the fans) and Fused Zamasu would have fought against Goku and Vegeta in SSB. However it is important to note that in Toriyama's movies the SSB forms are extremely powerful, so much so that Whis once said that if Goku and Vegeta teamed up they could seriously challenge Beerus. So Fused Zamasu would have been Beerus level at the very least, since he would have required Goku and Vegeta to team up in their strongest forms.

Obviously this has all been retconned and this was all before the introduction of Ultra Instinct, SSB Evolution, etc. Regardless it's interesting how in the movies (written by Toriyama himself) it was indeed said that Goku and Vegeta in SSB could defeat Beerus if they teamed up, meaning that a SSB team-up back then was absolutely Top-tier in power. So if Toriyama wrote this arc he would have the team-up of two SSBs rival Fused Zamasu, who in turn would rival Beerus as per the RoF movie statement.

The ending would remain the same because that was in the actual notes that Toriyama handed over to Toei and Toyotaro. It is he who planned for the whole Future multiverse to be erased after Zamasu became too powerful. What's likely to have happened is that Goku and Vegeta would have destroyed Zamasu's body instead of Trunks (maybe by using Galick Kamehameha like they did in Broly movie), thus causing Zamasu's soul to merge with the cosmos. And the rest is history.
Vegetto should have never appeared in my opinion, SSGSS being very powerful was great in my opinion which is why I think Toriyama could easily have done it better. Was it in the script that Zamasu was to merge with the universe? I don’t actually recall him stating that.

I wonder what would have caused Zamasu and Black to fuse, I wonder if Black would have surpassed Vegeta once again like in the anime but then get convinced to fuse once Zamasu is pushed back?

I’m not sure if Toriyama retconned them being more powerful than Berrus, though I do not remember.
What was in the script is that Zamasu would become too powerful and Zeno would have to appear to defeat him. Toei then had him merge with the cosmos while Toyotaro instead gave him infinite cloning capabilities. Would Toriyama find another way to make Zamasu "infinite"'? I don't know, but the point is that Zeno ending him was indeed part of his notes, as was the erasure of the Future timeline. It's kind of the point of the ending too, how Trunks doesn't lose "hope" despite having lost his timeline. So I have no doubt that Toriyama indeed planned for the Future multiverse to be erased.
I wonder what would have caused Zamasu and Black to fuse, I wonder if Black would have surpassed Vegeta once again like in the anime but then get convinced to fuse once Zamasu is pushed back?
That would depend on whether the idea for the Red-Blue switch that Vegeta used was Toriyama's or Toyotaro's. If it was Toyotaro's then Toriyama would probably just write something similar to the anime, where Black manages to get ahead of Vegeta but is forced to fuse once he realizes his Immortal partner can be sealed. And it would be less desperate than how it was in the manga, where Black was seriously threatened by the Red-Blue strategy Vegeta had.
I’m not sure if Toriyama retconned them being more powerful than Berrus, though I do not remember.
It's Beerus who was retconned. Nowadays it's obvious that two SSB fighters are still fodder to him, but back in the RoF movie Whis said that Goku and Vegeta could beat him if they teamed up. Back then their strongest form was SSB.
IIIRC it was stated they may stand a chance and not outright beat him though I’m pretty sure.

I personally don’t think Vegeta would do the blue switch in Toriyama’s version, I think Toriyama would make Vegeta surpass him, then Black would once again increase in power similar to when Son is backed into a corner, then Zamasu would become free and talk Black into fusing.

Another thing I forgot to mention is whether Toriyama would have Black and Goku fight, in the manga they never did for some reason. I wonder if Toyotaro had the big brain idea that it would “confuse” readers?

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by 90sDBZ » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:27 am

Aim wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:44 am I disagree. The god ritual was absolutely needed because there was a new level of power that could only be attained that way then, the Genki Dama was a way of getting the people of Earth to deal with their own problem for once and I imagine SSGSS being so powerful that two could match Zamasu would make sense. After all, the difference in Zamasu’s and Goku Black’s power is so vast it shouldn’t be too strong like what we saw in the anime and manga. Without the Kaioshin’s there to give the earrings there shouldn’t have been a fusion. This is why I think Toriyama’s version would have been better.
Whatever the reasoning, those were still situations were they accepted help rather than fight alone because of their Saiyan pride. Saying that fusing to overcome an overwhelming threat is out of character is a very arbitrary distinction to make.

Basically they'd prefer not to do it, but when things get desperate enough of course they'll do it.

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:48 am

Aim wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:47 am Another thing I forgot to mention is whether Toriyama would have Black and Goku fight, in the manga they never did for some reason. I wonder if Toyotaro had the big brain idea that it would “confuse” readers?
Goku and Black never fighting in the manga was just stupid, like there's no excuse for it :lol: Introducing an antagonist who looks like Goku and then having him fight the actual protagonist Goku is a no-brainer. I'm not sure how Goku vs. Black would have confused readers anyway, all those who read the Future Trunks arc in the manga also watched the Future Trunks arc in the anime so it's not like it would have been hard to distinguish Goku from Black.

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:45 pm

it's worth to remember that the manga was made after the anime: no doubt a number of Toyotoaro's decisions in what to portray in his limited amount of pages was influenced by what the anime did already show.
Black vs Vegeta was a necessity, while Black vs Goku was not and was already covered by the anime.

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by Yuji » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:30 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:45 pm it's worth to remember that the manga was made after the anime: no doubt a number of Toyotoaro's decisions in what to portray in his limited amount of pages was influenced by what the anime did already show.
Black vs Vegeta was a necessity, while Black vs Goku was not and was already covered by the anime.
Then it brings up the question of why one was a necessity while the other wasn't. Clearly Vegeta's big speech was a part of Toriyama's original script, which necessitated the Vegeta vs Black fight, but Goku fighting Black seems ripe for character drama. The anime tapped into some of it, but Toyotaro for sure could have done it better if he had chosen to have the two interact some more.

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by Kodoshin » Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:37 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:45 pm it's worth to remember that the manga was made after the anime: no doubt a number of Toyotoaro's decisions in what to portray in his limited amount of pages was influenced by what the anime did already show.
Black vs Vegeta was a necessity, while Black vs Goku was not and was already covered by the anime.
Indeed. One thing I enjoyed about the anime was the initial mystery around Black's identity. I'm glad the manga didn't dwell on it, but I wonder how it would have been approached if the anime hadn't already happened.

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Tue Jun 15, 2021 6:37 am

It's nice of Toriyama to give credit to Toyotaro for making a complex villain that he could not have managed.

But that just reinforces my opinion of Zamasu being the "odd one out" of the saga, and not in a good way.


Regarding Goku Black, Toriyama may have made him just another Saiyan with Ascended God mode. But I wonder if that would have been fine and in line with Dragon Ball.
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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:37 am

Aim wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:18 am In the anime, Rosé is a Goku Black version of Super Saiyan. I wonder if Toriyama’s version would have Goku Black turn SS first in the manga as well?
Toriyama's design notes for Black imply that Black could use the Golden haired Super Saiyan in addition to the Super Saiyan Rosé. So yeah, even though we haven't seen a drawing of Black in this form done by Toriyama, it was probably in his version.
Aim wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:18 am We do know that Fused Zamasu could be taken on by two SSGSS’s, which makes me wonder if they’d defeat him that way, or if Zamasu would keep healing and they’d tire out and still call for Zeno.
Toyotaro said that in the original drafts, Potara's time limit and immortality would be key points, and that Goku and Vegeta would fight in turns but that two SSB would be ''more than enough'' to defeat Zamasu. I assume then that they would probably fight that way until the fusion ends, but Zamasu's immortality would prevent him from being killed and then we would see the whole mess with Zen'oh, just like the anime and the manga

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Re: Toriyama’s Story on the Goku Black Arc

Post by Aim » Wed Jun 16, 2021 8:54 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:37 am
Aim wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:18 am In the anime, Rosé is a Goku Black version of Super Saiyan. I wonder if Toriyama’s version would have Goku Black turn SS first in the manga as well?
Toriyama's design notes for Black imply that Black could use the Golden haired Super Saiyan in addition to the Super Saiyan Rosé. So yeah, even though we haven't seen a drawing of Black in this form done by Toriyama, it was probably in his version.
Yeah, I’d love to see a drawing of Goku Black from Toriyama again, I wonder how his expressions would differ.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:37 am Toyotaro said that in the original drafts, Potara's time limit and immortality would be key points, and that Goku and Vegeta would fight in turns but that two SSB would be ''more than enough'' to defeat Zamasu. I assume then that they would probably fight that way until the fusion ends, but Zamasu's immortality would prevent him from being killed and then we would see the whole mess with Zen'oh, just like the anime and the manga
Ah I see, so I wonder if they defused in the original and Goku Black inherited the immortality and Zamasu inherited the strength as well from the fusion, causing them to become an absolute powerhouse team that became too much for Goku and Vegeta?

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