Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:14 pm

We barely get the chance to see what Goku’s parenting skills are like in the manga, outside of the fact that he’s absent for extended periods of time. Most of the moments where we actually see what Goku is like as a parent were provided by Toei, and in those cases, he’s usually portrayed as the “cool parent” when compared to Chi-Chi, especially in Movie 3.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:27 pm

I'm honestly bored of bad dads in fiction. Give me hot dads who do their best and aren't completely unprepared idiots more often.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:38 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:27 pm I'm honestly bored of bad dads in fiction. Give me hot dads who do their best and aren't completely unprepared idiots more often.
Oh absolutely. Awkward/incompetent dads are about as prevalent in (mainly comedic) media as dead Disney mothers.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:02 pm

Weird people are getting upset about stuff that was in the actual text.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:04 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:38 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 7:27 pm I'm honestly bored of bad dads in fiction. Give me hot dads who do their best and aren't completely unprepared idiots more often.
Oh absolutely. Awkward/incompetent dads are about as prevalent in (mainly comedic) media as dead Disney mothers.
Superman & Lois' depiction of Clark as a good but flawed dad who learns from his mistakes is just so good. One of the best (and hottest) dads in fiction right now.

Give me DILFs who are sensitive like Clark Kent, please.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by Soppa Saia People » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:31 pm

koiwai from yotsuba the best father figure in all of media.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:48 pm

Soppa Saia People wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:31 pm koiwai from yotsuba the best father figure in all of media.
I sweat bullets for that man, just as I'd take bullets for him.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 11:58 pm

My stance on Goku is he's a loving, caring father, but too aloof, whimsical and irresponsible to be a competent parent. Your typical parent with strong arts or athletic ambitions who puts the pursuit of his career before the family without even realizing. Or the cool uncle that you would nonetheless never want as your actual father.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by Yuli Ban » Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:08 am

Son Goku is an alien and has alien parenting instincts that don't jive well with Earthling human standards. Expecting Son Carrot Man to be a traditional loving human father when he is not a human but rather a member of a war-lusted alien species is like expecting a giraffe to know how to use its gills to breathe underwater.

Done, jobs a good'un, I'd like my check for achieving world peace.


In all seriousness ever since I realized this, I always rathered that Goku be even less "traditionally" fatherly than he actually was in the series. Not necessarily for the memes but rather for the joys of seeing just how alien he could be. It's a nice change of pace.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:15 am

Yuli Ban wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:08 am Son Goku is an alien and has alien parenting instincts that don't jive well with Earthling human standards. Expecting Son Carrot Man to be a traditional loving human father when he is not a human but rather a member of a war-lusted alien species is like expecting a giraffe to know how to use its gills to breathe underwater.

Done, jobs a good'un, I'd like my check for achieving world peace.


In all seriousness ever since I realized this, I always rathered that Goku be even less "traditionally" fatherly than he actually was in the series. Not necessarily for the memes but rather for the joys of seeing just how alien he could be. It's a nice change of pace.
I think the other thing a lot of fans have to reckon with that the dub partially obscured is the fact that Chi-Chi is a dumbass, slack-jawed yokel who's basically with Goku and accepts all of his weirdness because she's fulfilling her childish marriage fantasy with the first guy to ever touch her on her hoo-ha. And Goku accepts the marriage after only having met her once with what he's getting into because he's earnest to cosmically stupid degrees. The entire dynamic of the family is just broken and it's a miracle Gohan and Goten are pretty normal.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:54 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:08 pm
DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:37 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:02 pm I don't really see a problem here. Toriyama has also said that Goku was not meant to be a hero (poisons and all that), yet that debate is still continuing to be discussed. The same will be for the debate about Goku's parenting.
It makes Goku really one-dimensional and is contradictory to how Toriyama originally portrayed him in the manga.
How does it make Goku one-dimensional?

If anything “someone can be a good person and love their offspring and still be a crappy parent” is a nuance take you almost never see.
Toriyama also said Goku's good deeds are merely coincidences even though we've seen him act selflessly countless times even in the manga.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:19 am

Wow what a great find. I don't think this really is that revealing to anyone who frequents this website though.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:23 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:03 am It’s an good read but not really revealing anything that wasn’t already known. The most interesting thing was seeing that Toriyama made his own decision to give Goku a kid based on his own current life experience as a new parent. I never had solid evidence but I always had the sneaking suspicion Gohan existed as an editorial pressure to provide a new kid character to replace the now grown up Goku. Good to know I was completely wrong.

The whole “Gohan was the real main character once he’s introduced “ read seemed informed by most people in the west having seen Dragon Ball Z first where Toei hyper focused on Gohan as a character.

It’s easy to shit on FUNimation for reversioning Goku as a super hero and making Gohan act like Goku jr but TOEI did it first. Funimation just added some cheesy super hero platitudes to Goku’s mouth and gave Gohan a “tough kid” voice.

But yeah the reason it never worked for Gohan to be the main character, even when Toriyama flirted with the idea in the twilight of the manga’s run, because Dragon Ball isn’t a super hero story it’s a martial arts story about a guy going out into the world and finding stronger opponents to challenge his own skills and improve himself. This is why the Boo saga’s ending is a significantly better ending to the story than Freeza or Cell. No matter how many online articles whine that “It should have ended at Cell so it could end with Gohan taking the mantle”

I think Toei realized their error in judgement in retrospect. For example, the opening and endings to Dragon Ball Kai feature Gohan at times, but he's never the main focus.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by TobyS » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:09 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 1:15 am
Yuli Ban wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:08 am Son Goku is an alien and has alien parenting instincts that don't jive well with Earthling human standards. Expecting Son Carrot Man to be a traditional loving human father when he is not a human but rather a member of a war-lusted alien species is like expecting a giraffe to know how to use its gills to breathe underwater.

Done, jobs a good'un, I'd like my check for achieving world peace.


In all seriousness ever since I realized this, I always rathered that Goku be even less "traditionally" fatherly than he actually was in the series. Not necessarily for the memes but rather for the joys of seeing just how alien he could be. It's a nice change of pace.
I think the other thing a lot of fans have to reckon with that the dub partially obscured is the fact that Chi-Chi is a dumbass, slack-jawed yokel who's basically with Goku and accepts all of his weirdness because she's fulfilling her childish marriage fantasy with the first guy to ever touch her on her hoo-ha. And Goku accepts the marriage after only having met her once with what he's getting into because he's earnest to cosmically stupid degrees. The entire dynamic of the family is just broken and it's a miracle Gohan and Goten are pretty normal.
That's what I love about it, as a couple they work, Chichi is pushy academically and Gokus too laid back but as a combination they work.

Ignoring all filler and shit I think they are like an arranged marriage that do love each other and do work well together. Goku could literally teleport away from her if he was miserable.

They aren't incredibly physically affectionate but I think it's a warm happy household.

Goku isn't a good dad but he's not a bad one, abusive or projecting insecurities onto his kids or anything.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by TheGodfather93 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:08 pm

Yuli Ban wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:08 am Son Goku is an alien and has alien parenting instincts that don't jive well with Earthling human standards. Expecting Son Carrot Man to be a traditional loving human father when he is not a human but rather a member of a war-lusted alien species is like expecting a giraffe to know how to use its gills to breathe underwater.

Done, jobs a good'un, I'd like my check for achieving world peace.


In all seriousness ever since I realized this, I always rathered that Goku be even less "traditionally" fatherly than he actually was in the series. Not necessarily for the memes but rather for the joys of seeing just how alien he could be. It's a nice change of pace.
The whole alien angle doesn't really work when you look at Vegeta in DBS, and how much he's grown as a father over the course of the series.

The man grew up on an alien planet, then spent his adolescence and early adulthood wiping out planets for Space Hitler. Even after he started living on Earth, he was still a colossal jackass for a good while, and his mid-life crisis was bad enough to almost doom the entire universe. And yet, by the time DBS rolls around, he's become a way better father by human standards than Goku arguably ever was.

I mean seriously, can you imagine Goku wanting to skip a tournament featuring the best fighters in the multiverse if Chi-Chi was about to give birth to another kid? He does care for his family, sure, but they're not the most important thing in his life. Fighting is.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by Yuli Ban » Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:30 pm

TheGodfather93 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:08 pm
Yuli Ban wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:08 am Son Goku is an alien and has alien parenting instincts that don't jive well with Earthling human standards. Expecting Son Carrot Man to be a traditional loving human father when he is not a human but rather a member of a war-lusted alien species is like expecting a giraffe to know how to use its gills to breathe underwater.

Done, jobs a good'un, I'd like my check for achieving world peace.


In all seriousness ever since I realized this, I always rathered that Goku be even less "traditionally" fatherly than he actually was in the series. Not necessarily for the memes but rather for the joys of seeing just how alien he could be. It's a nice change of pace.
The whole alien angle doesn't really work when you look at Vegeta in DBS, and how much he's grown as a father over the course of the series.

The man grew up on an alien planet, then spent his adolescence and early adulthood wiping out planets for Space Hitler. Even after he started living on Earth, he was still a colossal jackass for a good while, and his mid-life crisis was bad enough to almost doom the entire universe. And yet, by the time DBS rolls around, he's become a way better father by human standards than Goku arguably ever was.

I mean seriously, can you imagine Goku wanting to skip a tournament featuring the best fighters in the multiverse if Chi-Chi was about to give birth to another kid? He does care for his family, sure, but they're not the most important thing in his life. Fighting is.
Coincidentally, I dislike the humanization of Saiyans that has been undergoing ever since Dragon Ball Minus, even if I do counterintuitively like Vegeta becoming a loving father of two. This species was more interesting to me when they were monkey-tailed orcs. And I also prefer my orcs naturally (rather than culturally) violent by extension.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jun 19, 2021 9:52 pm

Now that I think about it, Toriyama’s characterization of Goku as an aloof father is pretty ironic when you consider that his mother and father have canonically been characterized as loving and devoted parents. It makes it all the more baffling that Toriyama is the one who wrote DBM.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:06 pm

Yuli Ban wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:30 pm
TheGodfather93 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:08 pm
Yuli Ban wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 12:08 am Son Goku is an alien and has alien parenting instincts that don't jive well with Earthling human standards. Expecting Son Carrot Man to be a traditional loving human father when he is not a human but rather a member of a war-lusted alien species is like expecting a giraffe to know how to use its gills to breathe underwater.

Done, jobs a good'un, I'd like my check for achieving world peace.


In all seriousness ever since I realized this, I always rathered that Goku be even less "traditionally" fatherly than he actually was in the series. Not necessarily for the memes but rather for the joys of seeing just how alien he could be. It's a nice change of pace.
The whole alien angle doesn't really work when you look at Vegeta in DBS, and how much he's grown as a father over the course of the series.

The man grew up on an alien planet, then spent his adolescence and early adulthood wiping out planets for Space Hitler. Even after he started living on Earth, he was still a colossal jackass for a good while, and his mid-life crisis was bad enough to almost doom the entire universe. And yet, by the time DBS rolls around, he's become a way better father by human standards than Goku arguably ever was.

I mean seriously, can you imagine Goku wanting to skip a tournament featuring the best fighters in the multiverse if Chi-Chi was about to give birth to another kid? He does care for his family, sure, but they're not the most important thing in his life. Fighting is.
Coincidentally, I dislike the humanization of Saiyans that has been undergoing ever since Dragon Ball Minus, even if I do counterintuitively like Vegeta becoming a loving father of two. This species was more interesting to me when they were monkey-tailed orcs. And I also prefer my orcs naturally (rather than culturally) violent by extension.
Minus didn't really humanize the Saiyans. It just simplified the ideology of their culture.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:11 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:06 pm
Yuli Ban wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:30 pm
TheGodfather93 wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:08 pm
The whole alien angle doesn't really work when you look at Vegeta in DBS, and how much he's grown as a father over the course of the series.

The man grew up on an alien planet, then spent his adolescence and early adulthood wiping out planets for Space Hitler. Even after he started living on Earth, he was still a colossal jackass for a good while, and his mid-life crisis was bad enough to almost doom the entire universe. And yet, by the time DBS rolls around, he's become a way better father by human standards than Goku arguably ever was.

I mean seriously, can you imagine Goku wanting to skip a tournament featuring the best fighters in the multiverse if Chi-Chi was about to give birth to another kid? He does care for his family, sure, but they're not the most important thing in his life. Fighting is.
Coincidentally, I dislike the humanization of Saiyans that has been undergoing ever since Dragon Ball Minus, even if I do counterintuitively like Vegeta becoming a loving father of two. This species was more interesting to me when they were monkey-tailed orcs. And I also prefer my orcs naturally (rather than culturally) violent by extension.
Minus didn't really humanize the Saiyans. It just simplified the ideology of their culture.
Did Saiyans ever have a complex ideology to begin with?

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:21 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:11 pm Did Saiyans ever have a complex ideology to begin with?
Not particularly so but the original series made it clear they were the way they were because of their environment rather being born that way.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

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