Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

[jjgp1112]

Son Goku is an alien and has alien parenting instincts that don't jive well with Earthling human standards. Expecting Son Carrot Man to be a traditional loving human father when he is not a human but rather a member of a war-lusted alien species is like expecting a giraffe to know how to use its gills to breathe underwater.

Done, jobs a good'un, I'd like my check for achieving world peace.


In all seriousness ever since I realized this, I always rathered that Goku be even less "traditionally" fatherly than he actually was in the series. Not necessarily for the memes but rather for the joys of seeing just how alien he could be. It's a nice change of pace.

The whole alien angle doesn't really work when you look at Vegeta in DBS, and how much he's grown as a father over the course of the series.

The man grew up on an alien planet, then spent his adolescence and early adulthood wiping out planets for Space Hitler. Even after he started living on Earth, he was still a colossal jackass for a good while, and his mid-life crisis was bad enough to almost doom the entire universe. And yet, by the time DBS rolls around, he's become a way better father by human standards than Goku arguably ever was.

I mean seriously, can you imagine Goku wanting to skip a tournament featuring the best fighters in the multiverse if Chi-Chi was about to give birth to another kid? He does care for his family, sure, but they're not the most important thing in his life. Fighting is.

Coincidentally, I dislike the humanization of Saiyans that has been undergoing ever since Dragon Ball Minus, even if I do counterintuitively like Vegeta becoming a loving father of two. This species was more interesting to me when they were monkey-tailed orcs. And I also prefer my orcs naturally (rather than culturally) violent by extension.

Well even Bardock and Gine were purported to be unusual, and it's still loving by Saiyan standards. From the way Bardock spoke, he wasn't particularly loving or doting to begin with and trying to get Kakarot to safety was his sole act of altruism. Hell, the very next scene in Broly, we see Vegeta and Raditz being like "Eh, fuck it" when they find out their whole race, including their parents, were dead.

[Izanagi]

Goku genuinely sounds like a more interesting character in Toriyama's head than he ever was in the manga. He rants on and on about Goku being a bad dad, but is that ever addressed in any way beyond one-off comments? You don't need to do a full-on family drama soap opera, but stuff like "Goku is inherently alien, and doesn't understand love and family" is interesting. Like, that's a unique aspect to his character, and something worth exploring, since Goku literally IS an alien. Sure, he looks 99% human, especially without his tail, but you could do something with this.

But they never do though. Dragon Ball has plenty of potential material for storytelling and character growth, but it never lives up to its potential. It is a series filled to the brim with wasted potential. Like, the fact that Gohan apparently, at some point, writes a book about Ki control, and far off into the future, that changes the face of humanity as we know it, and Ki control becomes common place. Where's THAT story arc? DBS does nothing with the dude. He goes to work conferences as the fate of the universe hangs in the balance, and has no stated job other than being a scholar. What the fuck is Gohan's degree anyway? He is a scholar of what exactly?

[90sDBZ]

By real world standards you could make the argument he isn't the best father, but this isn't the real world.

Reading that article there's a couple of things Toriyama says that don't exactly ring true. There's never been anything to suggest Goku prefers training alone. If anything the opposite is true; he gets excited about learning new techniques from others, invites Piccolo to train for the Androids, gets Gohan to train in the Time Chamber with him, and even has Kid Buu reincarnated just so he can have a sparring partner.

And there's also never been any sign Gohan harbours any resentment towards him. He actually seems to respect him just as much as Piccolo, and constantly looks to him for inspiration.

Sometimes it seems Toriyama exaggerates Goku's negative qualities in interviews, perhaps as a response to the anime doing the opposite.

[jjgp1112]

By real world standards you could make the argument he isn't the best father, but this isn't the real world.

Reading that article there's a couple of things Toriyama says that don't exactly ring true. There's never been anything to suggest Goku prefers training alone. If anything the opposite is true; he gets excited about learning new techniques from others, invites Piccolo to train for the Androids, gets Gohan to train in the Time Chamber with him, and even has Kid Buu reincarnated just so he can have a sparring partner.

And there's also never been any sign Gohan harbours any resentment towards him. He actually seems to respect him just as much as Piccolo, and constantly looks to him for inspiration.

Sometimes it seems Toriyama exaggerates Goku's negative qualities in interviews, perhaps as a response to the anime doing the opposite.

He didn't really say that Gohan harbors resentment towards him, though...just that he doesn't see him as a role model whose example he should follow - and given Gohan's career inclinations, that's on the money.

[90sDBZ]

He didn't really say that Gohan harbors resentment towards him, though...just that he doesn't see him as a role model whose example he should follow - and given Gohan's career inclinations, that's on the money.

Career wise Gohan goes his own way, but that seems superficial when it's obvious he has enormous respect for his fathers' actual character, ie. his courage and loyalty to his friends. Whenever Gohan's in trouble it's always "What would Father and Piccolo San do?", or "I need to be brave like Father and Piccolo San".

The exact quote is “Gokū is a disaster as a father (laugh), so I think Gohan considers him a bad example.” This implies Gohan actually thinks of him as a bad father, as if he'd actually tell you that if you asked him. To me it just doesn't ring true.

[Yuli Ban]

Well even Bardock and Gine were purported to be unusual, and it's still loving by Saiyan standards. From the way Bardock spoke, he wasn't particularly loving or doting to begin with and trying to get Kakarot to safety was his sole act of altruism. Hell, the very next scene in Broly, we see Vegeta and Raditz being like "Eh, fuck it" when they find out their whole race, including their parents, were dead.

I suppose my real source of angst is that Bardock and Gine are unusual, and this abnormality is now implied to be the reason why Goku is so nice. Even if not specifically stated, subtext is a thing. And this goes against the better story (in my opinion): that Saiyans were exclusively scumbags and Son Goku was the only unusual one, with Vegeta only growing out of it through the fiercest internal struggle and even then circa the end of Z he wasn't really some doting father or anything; he's closer to what I'd imagine an old traditional samurai patriarch to be.

It's implied Broly's unusual too. For all his troubled upbringing, at least Cheelai and Goku consider him to be a nice guy. This after being raised by a decidedly not-nice Saiyan father for decades on a brutal backwater planet. I suppose the fact he wasn't exploited for his strength kept him from becoming Z Broly? Either way the subtext I'm getting from all this is that the old headcanon— that Saiyans are basically space Spartans (i.e. primarily promote themselves as warriors but have a much more multifaceted society) and not monkey orcs— is true, and that has its own appeal obviously. I just prefer the monkey orcs.

Goku genuinely sounds like a more interesting character in Toriyama's head than he ever was in the manga. He rants on and on about Goku being a bad dad, but is that ever addressed in any way beyond one-off comments? You don't need to do a full-on family drama soap opera, but stuff like "Goku is inherently alien, and doesn't understand love and family" is interesting. Like, that's a unique aspect to his character, and something worth exploring, since Goku literally IS an alien. Sure, he looks 99% human, especially without his tail, but you could do something with this.

But they never do though. Dragon Ball has plenty of potential material for storytelling and character growth, but it never lives up to its potential. It is a series filled to the brim with wasted potential. Like, the fact that Gohan apparently, at some point, writes a book about Ki control, and far off into the future, that changes the face of humanity as we know it, and Ki control becomes common place. Where's THAT story arc? DBS does nothing with the dude. He goes to work conferences as the fate of the universe hangs in the balance, and has no stated job other than being a scholar. What the fuck is Gohan's degree anyway? He is a scholar of what exactly?

Dragon Ball is baby's-first-Tolkien hiding in a simple kung fu fantasy story. There's a shitload of possibilities in terms of character, worldbuilding, and storytelling, possibly rivaling what we saw in Star Wars (which, famously or infamously depending on how you look at it, can tackle any genre it wants nowadays).

But unless Toei plans on exploiting Toriyama like Nickelodeon does Stephen Hillenburg, it'll probably never happen like that. Dragon Ball was, is, and probably always will be a fairly straightforward kung fu fantasy action-comedy. Dragon Ball is a cartoon in the purest sense as far as its makers and owners are concerned. It's not really a vehicle for character drama. That ship sailed in the '80s. I say this as someone who would love a lot more of that but accepts that's not what DB's really about.

[nhienphan2808]

Vegeta is an "unusual Saiyan" too and it's not that he was kinder or a better father, or more "earthling" than Goku, or had a wrong idealism about his people being assholes and Goku was more "true Saiyan" than him. He's unusual because he's an royal, that's it. Toriyama said "aside from the royal family, they are not particular about blood relationships". So before he learns to love them, he's already placing importance on his family and blood as a extension of himself , all you need is a little bit of real care and you get the Vegeta from Buu forward. He's still an asshole in terms of real love and care.
Goku is a fairly "normal Saiyan" meaning he's a low class, who isnt particular about his blood. He was supposed to be detached like your typical tube baby that was thrown away from all family and blood even before he hits his head. So the headbump made him kinder to all people as a principle, but his detached low class tube traveling baby nature to his own family remains.

[Cold Skin]

I think the way Gohan is depicted as "excessively" caring for his daughter in the anime (rushing back from work running in the room to see his daughter as if he hadn't been able to breathe without her all day long, admitting to Trunks that he should be harsher with her but just can't help letting everything slide...) is his own way of coping with his father's more distant attitude.

I don't think he has any sort of trauma or even hard feelings towards Goku, he gets along well with him and even agrees with Goku going far away to train with a smile when Goku leaves with Whis, saying he'll take care of Chichi in the meantime for example. He knows his father can be selfish like a child and takes it with a smile.
But I do think that - whether consciously or not - he's like "even though I love my father, I'm not gonna be like that with my daughter, I'm gonna be really close to her and spend as much time as I can with her and really show her that I'm there at all times".

It's interesting that Toriyama reiterated recently how Goku's sons are not a priority to him, much like for the rest of the Saiyans. In the DBS Broly Anime Comics, he goes: "Saiyans are primarly a warrior people, so they put the most powerful warriors on the spotlight and don't really show affection for their children. King Vegeta and Paragus each use their own sons, one of them out of pride and the other one out of autosatisfaction. Bardack is the only one to show a rare feeling among Saiyans, much closer to what an Earthing father can feel: he feels affection for his son. When you think about it, it's true that Goku doesn't think that much about his children either in the end."

I guess for Goku, if he can tell his children are happy somewhere, then it's all good for them, see you for the next training, the next battle or the next event with plenty of food!

[Hulk10]

I think the way Gohan is depicted as "excessively" caring for his daughter in the anime (rushing back from work running in the room to see his daughter as if he hadn't been able to breathe without her all day long, admitting to Trunks that he should be harsher with her but just can't help letting everything slide...) is his own way of coping with his father's more distant attitude.

I don't think he has any sort of trauma or even hard feelings towards Goku, he gets along well with him and even agrees with Goku going far away to train with a smile when Goku leaves with Whis, saying he'll take care of Chichi in the meantime for example. He knows his father can be selfish like a child and takes it with a smile.
But I do think that - whether consciously or not - he's like "even though I love my father, I'm not gonna be like that with my daughter, I'm gonna be really close to her and spend as much time as I can with her and really show her that I'm there at all times".

It's interesting that Toriyama reiterated recently how Goku's sons are not a priority to him, much like for the rest of the Saiyans. In the DBS Broly Anime Comics, he goes: "Saiyans are primarly a warrior people, so they put the most powerful warriors on the spotlight and don't really show affection for their children. King Vegeta and Paragus each use their own sons, one of them out of pride and the other one out of autosatisfaction. Bardack is the only one to show a rare feeling among Saiyans, much closer to what an Earthing father can feel: he feels affection for his son. When you think about it, it's true that Goku doesn't think that much about his children either in the end."

I guess for Goku, if he can tell his children are happy somewhere, then it's all good for them, see you for the next training, the next battle or the next event with plenty of food!

I feel that Goku does care about his sons but they aren't his main concern as he thinks nothing of going off to train. But he does feel affection for his sons. Paragus did seem to have some small amount of affection for Broly. King Vegeta I don't know about him. Toriyama says that typically bonds between Saiyans and their fathers are not all that strong. They are there. But they aren't quite as strong as an Earthling father's often is. But this feels like a pointless discussion. As fans we are entitled to our own educated opinions.

[Anonymous Friend]

Even on earth we have parents that send their children off to boarding schools and finishing schools and whatnot. At least the weathier ones do. We don't need our families around us everyday to feel affection for them.

I'm pretty sure that when their sons are strong, saiyan dads feel a great swell of pride for them.

[Hulk10]

Even on earth we have parents that send their children off to boarding schools and finishing schools and whatnot. At least the weathier ones do. We don't need our families around us everyday to feel affection for them.

I'm pretty sure that when their sons are strong, saiyan dads feel a great swell of pride for them.

I'd like to think that too.

[8000 Saiyan]

At least he's not Gendo Ikari or Nolan Grayson.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

At least he's not Gendo Ikari or Nolan Grayson.

Especially not the former, because Gendo was a bad father in every sense of the word and pushed Shinji away all because of the unpleasant things that had happened to himself as a child and Yui's death being the catalyst (He had a fear of being left alone and didn't feel like he could be loved thus closing himself from people) and because he felt like he'd be a poor influence on him. He was able to recognize eventually how wrong he'd been and that leaving behind and emotionally shutting himself off from his only son was not the answer, and in the most recent set of Evangelion was able to face that even if it doesn't fully make up for not being there for Shinji as a parent like he should've been. Definitely doesn't excuse his past cruelty and neglectful behavior toward him, but at least he finally realized the consequences of his actions.

But no, Goku definitely is nowhere close to that level.

[Anonymous Friend]

At least he's not Gendo Ikari or Nolan Grayson.

Grayson was atleast trying to teach his son values and how the world works.

Which is worst: Being absent or teaching your kid stuff that other people don't apporve of?

[JulieYBM]

At least he's not Gendo Ikari or Nolan Grayson.

Grayson was atleast trying to teach his son values and how the world works.

Which is worst: Being absent or teaching your kid stuff that other people don't apporve of?

Stupid question. They're both abusive assholes, one was just on hand to teach his son to not feel anything.

[Anonymous Friend]

At least he's not Gendo Ikari or Nolan Grayson.

Grayson was atleast trying to teach his son values and how the world works.

Which is worst: Being absent or teaching your kid stuff that other people don't apporve of?

Stupid question. They're both abusive assholes, one was just on hand to teach his son to not feel anything.

Ask most people who grew up without a parent, and they'd probably take the parent who was there.

Marc grew up in a loving home with both his parents. It's just once he got his powers, it was time to learn his father's true purpose.

[JulieYBM]

Grayson was atleast trying to teach his son values and how the world works.

Which is worst: Being absent or teaching your kid stuff that other people don't apporve of?

Stupid question. They're both abusive assholes, one was just on hand to teach his son to not feel anything.

Ask most people who grew up without a parent, and they'd probably take the parent who was there.

Marc grew up in a loving home with both his parents. It's just once he got his powers, it was time to learn his father's true purpose.

Ask a woman who has grown up with two abusive parents and you're going to realize that there is a third option: being abusive comes in many forms and comparing just two is dumb because it changes the goal posts and ignores that the issue is with abusive parents being abusive.

[Anonymous Friend]

Stupid question. They're both abusive assholes, one was just on hand to teach his son to not feel anything.

Ask most people who grew up without a parent, and they'd probably take the parent who was there.

Marc grew up in a loving home with both his parents. It's just once he got his powers, it was time to learn his father's true purpose.

Ask a woman who has grown up with two abusive parents and you're going to realize that there is a third option: being abusive comes in many forms and comparing just two is dumb because it changes the goal posts and ignores that the issue is with abusive parents being abusive.

Some orphans out there wish they had a parent to abuse them. I've met them. Told them "No, you don't". They replied, "At least they care enough to keep the kid around".

Just saying. Whether good or bad, you're living someone's dream life.

[MasenkoHA]

Ask most people who grew up without a parent, and they'd probably take the parent who was there.

Marc grew up in a loving home with both his parents. It's just once he got his powers, it was time to learn his father's true purpose.

Ask a woman who has grown up with two abusive parents and you're going to realize that there is a third option: being abusive comes in many forms and comparing just two is dumb because it changes the goal posts and ignores that the issue is with abusive parents being abusive.

Some orphans out there wish they had a parent to abuse them. I've met them. Told them "No, you don't". They replied, "At least they care enough to keep the kid around".

Just saying. Whether good or bad, you're living someone's dream life.

What in the name of bad takes

[JulieYBM]

Ask most people who grew up without a parent, and they'd probably take the parent who was there.

Marc grew up in a loving home with both his parents. It's just once he got his powers, it was time to learn his father's true purpose.

Ask a woman who has grown up with two abusive parents and you're going to realize that there is a third option: being abusive comes in many forms and comparing just two is dumb because it changes the goal posts and ignores that the issue is with abusive parents being abusive.

Some orphans out there wish they had a parent to abuse them. I've met them. Told them "No, you don't". They replied, "At least they care enough to keep the kid around".

Just saying. Whether good or bad, you're living someone's dream life.

I don't like it when my family gaslights me, I don't know why you think you'd be able to do the same thing to me.