Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

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Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:52 am

The well-known writer and author of several books about Dragon Ball, Derek Padula, today published what he says is Toriyama's lost commentary about Goku as a father published in ''The Legendary manga'' (which he says was written in Japanese but never published in Japan, only in Western Europe which is the reason we never saw this version I guess).

I'm taking Derek's word that this particular article has never been translated, so I'm assuming it hasn't been published here in the Kanzenshuu archives (and that's why I'm doing the thread).

https://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/his ... -toriyama/

Toriyama had already said that Goku wasn't a traditional father, but I don't remember calling him a bad father that way, which gives us a clearer picture of how he sees this aspect of the character. And considering modern DB's approach to this, I don't think Toriyama has changed his opinion much compared to when this comment was made (2007).

What do you think of this? I know this subject has already been discussed to death overall, so just to add something else: Seeing some comments about this line from Toriyama, I feel like this discussion has reached a point where people are just defending one side for sake of it, and that after all these years of arguing about it, they became adamant about a specific point of view (perhaps just in response to the arguments used by the other side).

Seeing how many people are saying that Toriyama is dead wrong or doesn't know his character is weird. I understand some criticisms about his work post Boo saga or the fact that he forgets things about his own work, but I think it's important to know what he envisioned for the characters at the time of their creation (in this same article, he states that he never created Gohan with the intention of makes him the protagonist), and this doesn't prevent readers from taking different things or having divergent views when reading the manga. As much as Toriyama says that Goku is a bad parent, that doesn't mean that a person can't interpret his actions differently, and therefore doesn't mean that Toriyama is necessarily ''wrong'' about that. Especially speaking of what he was thinking when creating it.
Last edited by TheSaiyanGod on Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:13 am

This is a great find, and it's nice to hear Toriyama's thoughts on the debate. I'd imagine he had no idea about how much of a huge controversy it would become among the fandom.

Regardless on where anyone stands on the issue, I can see where Toriyama is coming from because Goku never had any intentions to put his son's life at risk, although it doesn't change the fact in situations like making Gohan face Cell that is exactly what happened.

It's also interesting Toriyama points out that Gohan being a scholar was to set up a contrast between himself and Goku's characters, as Piccolo was pointing out during that fight Gohan didn't have the thirst for battle Goku did, and so his hidden powers couldn't have been forced out that easily. That was a crucial difference between the two characters' mindsets that I would argue was a disaster on Goku's part whether he meant well or not.

I will say that when Goku did spend time with Gohan and Goten he was shown to be very caring. Gohan was longing for Goku to comfort him on many occasions in the Saiyan arc so he is not without his redeeming qualities.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:03 am

It’s an good read but not really revealing anything that wasn’t already known. The most interesting thing was seeing that Toriyama made his own decision to give Goku a kid based on his own current life experience as a new parent. I never had solid evidence but I always had the sneaking suspicion Gohan existed as an editorial pressure to provide a new kid character to replace the now grown up Goku. Good to know I was completely wrong.

The whole “Gohan was the real main character once he’s introduced “ read seemed informed by most people in the west having seen Dragon Ball Z first where Toei hyper focused on Gohan as a character.

It’s easy to shit on FUNimation for reversioning Goku as a super hero and making Gohan act like Goku jr but TOEI did it first. Funimation just added some cheesy super hero platitudes to Goku’s mouth and gave Gohan a “tough kid” voice.

But yeah the reason it never worked for Gohan to be the main character, even when Toriyama flirted with the idea in the twilight of the manga’s run, because Dragon Ball isn’t a super hero story it’s a martial arts story about a guy going out into the world and finding stronger opponents to challenge his own skills and improve himself. This is why the Boo saga’s ending is a significantly better ending to the story than Freeza or Cell. No matter how many online articles whine that “It should have ended at Cell so it could end with Gohan taking the mantle”

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by jjgp1112 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:15 am

At least we get the definitive goddamn confirmation that Gohan was never intended to be the main character when he was introduced and was just intended to be a foil to the actual main character.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:23 am

It's a subjective matter. What constitutes being a good father? Being at your kid's birth? Not really, not on itself. Is Ned Flanders a good father? I guess, but I wouldn't want to grow in his house.

Goku's a flawed father for sure, like every other father ever. His flaws are for some unforgivable, and for others understandable. Toriyama never portrayed Goku as a bad father, only some flaws that he deems make for a bad parent apparently. He is a Saint if you compare him to Hitler's father or to Klaus Kinski. Or to parents from 50 years ago.

Goku's heart was always in the right place, he is not a bad dad to me. In some cultures he might be an awful father and in others a great father.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:28 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:03 am The whole “Gohan was the real main character once he’s introduced “ read seemed informed by most people in the west having seen Dragon Ball Z first where Toei hyper focused on Gohan as a character.
Now I wonder why Toriyama decided to try using Gohan as the main character in the Boo arc, despite knowing that he never created him for that purpose, and specifically to be the complete opposite of Goku (which in a series like Dragon Ball, there were great chances of not working).And he ended up changing his mind pretty quickly anyway.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:29 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:03 amThe most interesting thing was seeing that Toriyama made his own decision to give Goku a kid based on his own current life experience as a new parent. I never had solid evidence but I always had the sneaking suspicion Gohan existed as an editorial pressure to provide a new kid character to replace the now grown up Goku. Good to know I was completely wrong.
That was interesting, and it makes a lot of sense because art is a form of expression, and often the best art is inspired by real life experiences.

I don't think introducing Gohan was editorial pressure, but I do remember reading in Japan there is an expectancy for shounen manga to have at least one character of a suitable age for the target demographic to connect with, which explains Goten and Trunks never growing up in Super, so Gohan may have been a suggestion Toriyama accepted. We do know that Toriyama was encouraged to keep Goku as a kid but he refused, so another possibility is that he suggested Gohan as a compromise to his editors as it meant there could still be one character for new readers to relate to even if the lead was grown up.
Last edited by Dragon Ball Ireland on Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:41 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:28 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:03 am The whole “Gohan was the real main character once he’s introduced “ read seemed informed by most people in the west having seen Dragon Ball Z first where Toei hyper focused on Gohan as a character.
Now I wonder why Toriyama decided to try using Gohan as the main character in the Boo arc, despite knowing that he never created him for that purpose, and specifically to be the complete opposite of Goku (which in a series like Dragon Ball, there were great chances of not working).And he ended up changing his mind pretty quickly anyway.
I think, Toriyama might have felt he exhausted anymore story telling potential with Goku. I don’t know if Toriyama knew going into the Great Saiyaman stuff he would be ending the story soon but it’s probably not a coincidence once he realized a scholary type isn’t a suitable lead for a martial arts story and put Goku back in the role as the lead he immediately ended the manga after that.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by The Patrolman » Fri Jun 18, 2021 10:47 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 8:52 am The well-known writer and author of several books about Dragon Ball, Derek Padula, today published what he says is Toriyama's lost commentary about Goku as a father published in ''The Legendary manga'' (which he says was written in Japanese but never published in Japan, only in Western Europe which is the reason we never saw this version I guess).

I'm taking Derek's word that this particular article has never been translated, so I'm assuming it hasn't been published here in the Kanzenshuu archives (and that's why I'm doing the thread).

https://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/his ... -toriyama/

Toriyama had already said that Goku wasn't a traditional father, but I don't remember calling him a bad father that way, which gives us a clearer picture of how he sees this aspect of the character. And considering modern DB's approach to this, I don't think Toriyama has changed his opinion much compared to when this comment was made (2007).

What do you think of this? I know this subject has already been discussed to death overall, so just to add something else: Seeing some comments about this line from Toriyama, I feel like this discussion has reached a point where people are just defending one side for sake of it, and that after all these years of arguing about it, they became adamant about a specific point of view (perhaps just in response to the arguments used by the other side).

Seeing how many people are saying that Toriyama is dead wrong or doesn't know his character is weird. I understand some criticisms about his work post Boo saga or the fact that he forgets things about his own work, but I think it's important to know what he envisioned for the characters at the time of their creation (in this same article, he states that he never created Gohan with the intention of makes him the protagonist), and this doesn't prevent readers from taking different things or having divergent views when reading the manga. As much as Toriyama says that Goku is a bad parent, that doesn't mean that a person can't interpret his actions differently, and therefore doesn't mean that Toriyama is necessarily ''wrong'' about that. Especially speaking of what he was thinking when creating it.
This was a nice find but I can't see it in his POV cause of how he presented Goku and Gohan relationship in the series
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:02 pm

I don't really see a problem here. Toriyama has also said that Goku was not meant to be a hero (poisons and all that), yet that debate is still continuing to be discussed. The same will be for the debate about Goku's parenting.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:17 pm

I don’t know if I ever gave my thoughts on this matter. But I don’t completely disagree with Toriyama’s sentiment. It depends on how the society views what a father should be. I personally think my father is an excellent father in contrast to Goku, but sometimes people need a father that inspire you to be the best. Goku tried to make Gohan the best, in his twisted way, but he tried. And now he respects what Gohan wants, which is a very good thing! His path as father isn’t certainly perfect, but do you know any father that was born knowing how to be a parent?

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:37 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:02 pm I don't really see a problem here. Toriyama has also said that Goku was not meant to be a hero (poisons and all that), yet that debate is still continuing to be discussed. The same will be for the debate about Goku's parenting.
It makes Goku really one-dimensional and is contradictory to how Toriyama originally portrayed him in the manga.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:52 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:37 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:02 pm I don't really see a problem here. Toriyama has also said that Goku was not meant to be a hero (poisons and all that), yet that debate is still continuing to be discussed. The same will be for the debate about Goku's parenting.
It makes Goku really one-dimensional and goes at hand with how Toriyama originally portrayed him in the manga.
Sure, but his comment is, at the end of the day, partially opinionated. I doubt it is going to change so many people's minds.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:08 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:37 pm
PurestEvil wrote: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:02 pm I don't really see a problem here. Toriyama has also said that Goku was not meant to be a hero (poisons and all that), yet that debate is still continuing to be discussed. The same will be for the debate about Goku's parenting.
It makes Goku really one-dimensional and is contradictory to how Toriyama originally portrayed him in the manga.
How does it make Goku one-dimensional?

If anything “someone can be a good person and love their offspring and still be a crappy parent” is a nuance take you almost never see.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Fri Jun 18, 2021 2:30 pm

It's not his fault, he was absent for a great deal of Gohan and Goten's childhood.

And how would he compare to other super-powered fathers, like Omni-Man, Scott Lang, Bruce Wayne, etc. Don't tell me he's as bad as Omni-Man.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by Anonymous Friend » Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:30 pm

From what we know of Goku: Father ...

Those first couple of episodes at the beginning of Z, Goku looks like a fine father. He is then killed during the fight with his brother. He returns right in time to save Gohan and Krillin from Nappa. After the fight with Vegeta, everyone's banged up, but Krillin and Gohan are well enough to go to Namek. Goku arrives just in time to save them from Recoome. But the fight with Ginyu has him out of commission until Freeza's final form. Everyone gets sent to Earth but Goku and Freeza. After that fight, Goku chooses to stay away from Earth for a bit. That could be seen as Goku being a bad husband/father/friend or just an absent one. It's not like any of them needed Goku around for anything. Ox King's rich and can afford to provide. I'm not sure how much Goku made from his two 2nd place and one winner earnings from the tournemants, and how much they've used up.

Trunks comes around and says they need to worry about andriods. We know Goku, Piccolo, and Gohan train together for three years. I doubt it was hardcore grouling training every day for three years straight. Goku, Chi-chi, and Gohan did family stuff together. Later, Goku and Gohan spent the year in a day training. We know during the ten day intermission they did some relaxing things.

I don't fault Goku sending Gohan to fight Cell, especially because Gohan was the only one that could defeat him. It was literally Gohan beats him or everyone dies. After all of this, Goku decides to stay dead to try and keep things peaceful, which was a good ideal. But also one that hurt his family and friends a little. I don't really fault him on this one. He was trying to do good for his loved ones.

Tourney/Babiddi/Buu and Goku's back to life again. One note of contention is him not killing Buu with SSJ3 but if I'm remembering correctly, he wasn't even sure if he could. And if he tried, he would have used all his time up. For the most part, their post Buu saga family life seems great.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by superfan2024 » Fri Jun 18, 2021 4:09 pm

I... kind of wish this interview wasn't brought back into light :lol:

All this does is make the arguments 10x worse online, but this is is no way Toriyama's fault ofc.

I'm not really sure how I should even interpret this, because Toriyama's been known to forget characters such as Lunch, and even forgot SS2 was a thing, but at the same time, he's the author of the series and he's literally describing the main character, but then his comment about Gohan seems a bit contradictory towards what was presented in the series, but then again he's been known to say some "random" stuff in interviews, so who knows at this point lmao

Personally, i'd just take this interview with a grain of salt.

Unfortunately "GOKU IS A BAD DAD" enthusiasts or casuals will just blast this as the standing point of their argument now for eternity, and "b-b-but Goku is a good father" defenders are either in denial right now or won't accept this interview because of the points I made above.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by FoolsGil » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:22 pm

Maybe it's time to give Toriyama a collective "okay boomer" and ignore him. For all the good that Dragonball is, character writing and relationships wasn't one of them, and Toriyama has no intention to do better.

Imho, move on.

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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by coola » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:34 pm

Toriyama-san really is like Lucas, every time they tinker with lore or characters, they change it for worse.
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Re: Goku is a disaster as a father, according to Akira Toriyama

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Jun 18, 2021 5:49 pm

You know what would be nice? If we got to hear Toriyama's opinions on his fans' making their own interpretations of the story. Not for validation (it should be a given), but I am curious.
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