Dragon Ball Rewatch, Week 77 - DBZ 178-182

[Robo4900]

Hello, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone between and beyond, and welcome to week 77 of the first Dragon Ball rewatch of the decade.
We're doing five episodes a week, and we'll be watching every single episode of Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT. All 508 episodes. Plus the TV specials and the movies.
I encourage you all to watch in Japanese with subtitles, especially if you have never done so before, but watch along in whichever way brings you the most joy.

God, the Cell Games take so long.

Previous thread: Week 76 (DBZ 175, TVS2, 176-177)
Next thread: Week 78 (DBZ 183-187)

Anyway, without further ado...

Episode 331 - A Direct Hit to the Earth!! Cell’s Huge Kamehameha (DBZ episode 178)
Dub title: Cell's Bag of Tricks
Originally aired 17th of March 1993
Kai equivalent: Episode 88 - The Decisive Battle! Cell vs Son Goku
Written by: Katsuyuki Sumisawa
Episode director: Yoshihiro Ueda
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama

Blowing stupendous ki on the arena, Goku and Cell confront each other! Seeing their explosive power, Kuririn and the others are overwhelmed. The two clash once again. Having Tenshinhan’s cells as well, Cell attacks Goku with the Shishin no Ken. But as Goku faces the four Cells with a time-lag attack, Cell unleashes one of Freeza’s techniques! As Cell then fires an even more powerful Kamehameha, Goku flies into the air so that he will be targeted and the Earth spared, then counterattacks with the Shunkan-Idō!!

Anime-only/filler content: More scenes of the Mr. Satan gang, several bouts of the fight (including Cell using multi-form, Makankosappo, and Kienzan), Kaio's commentary.

Episode 332 - Lose or Die?! Goku, A Secret Turnabout Plan (DBZ episode 179)
Dub title: No More Rules
Originally aired 31st of March 1993
Kai equivalent: Episode 89 - A Battle of the Highest Level! Defeat Cell, Son Goku
Written by: Hiroshi Toda
Episode director: Daisuke Nishio
Animation supervisor: Keisuke Masunaga

An even battle unfolds as Goku and Cell battle at full power! Satan and co. are puzzled as the two move too fast to be seen. Saying that the out-of-bounds loss rule is already meaningless, Cell blows the arena away! A tremendous battle then begins, with the land itself as their arena. And then, as it looks as if Goku is going to fire a full-power Kamehameha at the Earth, he teleports right in front of Cell. The Kamehameha lands a direct hit on Cell!!

Anime-only/filler content: More scenes of the Mr. Satan gang, all the cutaways of people watching the fight, and ZTV being inundated with calls.

Episode 333 - The End of the Desperate Struggle!! Goku Surrenders?! (DBZ episode 180)
Dub title: The Fight is Over
Originally aired 7th of April 1993
Kai equivalent: Episode 89 - A Battle of the Highest Level! Defeat Cell, Son Goku and Episode 90 - A Conclusion to the Death-Match! Goku, Time to Make a Decision
Written by: Hiroshi Toda
Episode director: Atsutoshi Umezawa
Animation supervisor: Masahiro Shimanuki

Cell regenerates even after having the upper half of his body annihilated, shocking Goku and the others!! Even with them both having lost a considerable amount of ki, the two continue their battle. Unable to endure Goku’s rapid-fire energy bullet attack, Cell finally uses a barrier! While Goku is short of breath, Cell is still composed. Seeing their showdown, Vegeta admits that his own power is no match for Goku’s, while Cell’s power is even greater than Goku’s. As Cell sneers, Goku suddenly announces that he gives up!!

Anime-only/filler content: More scenes of the Mr. Satan gang and more cutaways to people watching the fight.

Episode 334 - Someone Who Will Succeed the Strongest… His Name is Gohan (DBZ episode 181)
Dub title: Faith in a Boy
Originally aired 14th of April 1993
Kai equivalent: Episode 90 - A Conclusion to the Death-Match! Goku, Time to Make a Decision
Written by: Hiroshi Toda
Episode director: Kazuhito Kikuchi
Animation supervisor: Masayuki Uchiyama

Vegeta and the others are all surprised at Goku’s announcement that he gives up. Afraid that his turn might come again, Satan pretends to have a stomachache. But Goku says there is someone even stronger than Cell, and chooses Gohan as the next challenger. In response to his father’s expectations, Gohan resolves to confront Cell. Furthermore, Goku recuperates Cell with a senzu, amazing Kuririn and everyone. After unleashing a tremendous ki, Gohan confronts Cell, who underestimates him! Even while being hit by Cell, he stands up again without even flinching…

Anime-only/filler content: More scenes of the Mr. Satan gang and cutaways to people watching the fight.

Episode 335 - Get Angry, Gohan — Release the Dormant Power Within (DBZ episode 182)
Dub title: Gohan's Plea
Originally aired 21st of April 1993
Kai equivalent: Episode 91 - Get Angry, Gohan! Unleash Your Hidden Power
Written by: Hiroshi Toda
Episode director: Masahiro Hosoda
Animation supervisor: Yūji Hakamada

With Cell as his opponent, Gohan is committed to protecting everyone. He is hit head-on by Cell’s energy wave and is crushed beneath crumbling rocks, but gets up all the same. But Gohan tells Cell about the power hidden within him. He says that he does not want to kill Cell, and requests that they stop this fight. But Cell at laughs this, telling Gohan to show him this hidden power, brutally hitting Gohan in order to provoke him! Cell grins after being hit with Gohan’s first attack…

Anime-only/filler content: More scenes of the Mr. Satan gang and cutaways to people watching the fight, extensions to the fight, the king telling his forces to back off, the flashbacks when Gohan explains his hidden power to Cell.

-

Interesting trivia:

• At this point in time in the manga, Cell kills Trunks and decides to destroy earth, Vegeta apologises to Gohan for being a dick, Goku gives Gohan a pep talk and he begins his beam struggle with Cell, beats him with the help of the rest of the gang, wishes are made to restore the earth, Goku decides to stay dead, and Trunks returns to his future to dispose of Dr. Gero's monsters.
• Missed trivia: In Funimation's original 2004 DVD single release of Z episode 172, they used the Dragon Box transfer of the series (though a somewhat less cleaned-up version, akin to their source material for their Dragon Ball GT DVDs). This is not the case on either the Australian release or the VHS release, both of which were mastered in 2002 using Funimation's own in-house DigiBeta transfer of their release prints. Thanks to TheBalishChannel for sharing this discovery in 2018.
• Z episode 179 contains Sean Schemmel's favourite moment in the Cell arc: The warp Kamehameha.
• In the original Funimation dub of Z episode 179, Goku says "Kameha-ha!" This error persisted into the initial DVD version of the remastered dub, but was rectified for the Blu-ray releases.
• If you were watching the edited dub at the same pace as we've been watching the uncut dub, you would reach the afterlife tournament filler arc this week with episode 180. In uncut however, we won't be reaching that filler arc for another four weeks, when we hit episode 195.
• The Ocean dub of the flashback in Z episode 182 features Gohan and Raditz, originally voiced by Saffron Henderson and Jason Gray-Stanford respectively, but voiced by Jillian Michaels and Alistair Abell in this flashback.
• Canadians seeking to recreate the original broadcast experience would be watching their final Funi-dubbed episode this week, Z episode 182. YTV switched to the Westwood/Ocean dub starting from Z episode 183 (168 in edited numbering) and never looked back.
  • This is one reason why you shouldn't believe people who claim the Westwood dub was created for cancon reasons; the Westwood dub began with Z episode 123 (108 in edited numbering), a full 60 episodes (and several months) before Canada switched over, and initially it only aired in the UK and Holland, plus a couple of other random European territories. YTV likely only made the switch because Funimation proved very unreliable.
• There are 14 redrawn shots in Kai episode 88, 13 in episode 89, and 19 in episode 90.

Episode summaries, airdates, and titles courtesy of Kanzenshuu's episode guide. Dragon Ball logo provided by KBABZ.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

In Funimation's original 2004 DVD single release of Z episode 172, they used the Dragon Box transfer of the series (though a somewhat less cleaned-up version, akin to their source material for their Dragon Ball GT DVDs). This is not the case on either the Australian release or the VHS release, both of which were mastered in 2002 using Funimation's own in-house DigiBeta transfer of their release prints.

Interesting, i'd sure like to know how that happened. My guess is somehow they got the Dragon Box version from Toei and since the DVD was released well over a year after the VHS they were sent it in that gap of time. Funny how this predated FUNimation getting the full Dragon Box Z run by five or so years and brings to question how long they actually had them by the time they were announced to be coming out in mid 2009.

[MasenkoHA]

So here’s something…interesting Funimation did.

In the Japanese version when Cell summons Freeza’s flying death circle thing he says nothing. Kuririn wonders if it’s his kienzan and Yamucha notes it follows the target like his sokidan. Kaio says it’s neither the kienzan nor the sokidan but the last technique Freeza used on Namek.

In the Funimation dub Cell actually says “kienzan disk” Krillin wonders if its his technique but doesn’t actually refer to destructo disk by name. Yamcha doesn’t reference his special technique at all and just notes how it follows Goku. And then Kai says pretty much the same thing he said in the Japanese version.

So was Funimation referencing the Japanese version by giving the name of Freeza’s attack the correct name for Kuririn’s similar move or did someone just fuck up when writing the script? You decide.


If you’re watching the Texas dub or the Vancouver dub regarding Gohan’s flashback its funny because the voices are different from the actual event. Even Nadolny’s Gohan is different than how she would do it when the Funimation Studios cast actually dubbed the episode 3-5 years later.


Funimation actually does a decent job translating the joke where Mr.Satan and company think Gohan is a bento salesboy. The dub goes with “delivery boy” which is close enough. The joke doesn’t work as well because it came from Gohan’s name meaning meal time and that doesn’t translate well into English. But good on them for just not completely rewriting the joke.

The Cell Games is long but just remember the entire Goku vs Freeza fight was like 18 episodes. The Cell Games is 17 episodes and even that’s not counting its broken up between Cell vs Satan and his students. Cell vs Goku and Cell vs Gohan.

[Cure Dragon 255]

So here’s something…interesting Funimation did.

In the Japanese version when Cell summons Freeza’s flying death circle thing he says nothing. Kuririn wonders if it’s his kienzan and Yamucha notes it follows the target like his sokidan. Kaio says it’s neither the kienzan nor the sokidan but the last technique Freeza used on Namek.

In the Funimation dub Cell actually says “kienzan disk” Krillin wonders if its his technique but doesn’t actually refer to destructo disk by name. Yamcha doesn’t reference his special technique at all and just notes how it follows Goku. And then Kai says pretty much the same thing he said in the Japanese version.

So was Funimation referencing the Japanese version by giving the name of Freeza’s attack the correct name for Kuririn’s similar move or did someone just fuck up when writing the script? You decide.


If you’re watching the Texas dub or the Vancouver dub regarding Gohan’s flashback its funny because the voices are different from the actual event. Even Nadolny’s Gohan is different than how she would do it when the Funimation Studios cast actually dubbed the episode 3-5 years later.


Funimation actually does a decent job translating the joke where Mr.Satan and company think Gohan is a bento salesboy. The dub goes with “delivery boy” which is close enough. The joke doesn’t work as well because it came from Gohan’s name meaning meal time and that doesn’t translate well into English. But good on them for just not completely rewriting the joke.

The Cell Games is long but just remember the entire Goku vs Freeza fight was like 18 episodes. The Cell Games is 17 episodes and even that’s not counting its broken up between Cell vs Satan and his students. Cell vs Goku and Cell vs Gohan.

I thought Cell didnt know about Freeza because the fly that captured all the DNA didnt go to Namek...

[MasenkoHA]

I thought Cell didnt know about Freeza because the fly that captured all the DNA didnt go to Namek...

They literally state multiple times Freeza and his dad’s DNA is part of Cell.

[Cure Dragon 255]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Cool! Cool then!

[Robo4900]

In Funimation's original 2004 DVD single release of Z episode 172, they used the Dragon Box transfer of the series (though a somewhat less cleaned-up version, akin to their source material for their Dragon Ball GT DVDs). This is not the case on either the Australian release or the VHS release, both of which were mastered in 2002 using Funimation's own in-house DigiBeta transfer of their release prints.

Interesting, i'd sure like to know how that happened. My guess is somehow they got the Dragon Box version from Toei and since the DVD was released well over a year after the VHS they were sent it in that gap of time. Funny how this predated FUNimation getting the full Dragon Box Z run by five or so years and brings to question how long they actually had them by the time they were announced to be coming out in mid 2009.

Honestly, I think Toei probably gave Funi ALL of the pre-final Z/GT DBox masters in like 2003, when they acquired those masters of GT. But they never really put the Z masters to use because they thought of their own new scans of their film prints as being better. (And in fairness, the Dragon Box video has always been disappointingly poor-quality; a GOOD scan of Funi's film would look a million times better, every time, such as on the Ultimate Uncut copy of Z episode 1)

One thing is clear to me, though: The US Dragon Box DVDs didn't need to be anywhere near as fucking expensive or limited as they were.

Not sure why they used the DBox footage on this one episode, probably just a mistake.

So here’s something…interesting Funimation did.

In the Japanese version when Cell summons Freeza’s flying death circle thing he says nothing. Kuririn wonders if it’s his kienzan and Yamucha notes it follows the target like his sokidan. Kaio says it’s neither the kienzan nor the sokidan but the last technique Freeza used on Namek.

In the Funimation dub Cell actually says “kienzan disk” Krillin wonders if its his technique but doesn’t actually refer to destructo disk by name. Yamcha doesn’t reference his special technique at all and just notes how it follows Goku. And then Kai says pretty much the same thing he said in the Japanese version.

So was Funimation referencing the Japanese version by giving the name of Freeza’s attack the correct name for Kuririn’s similar move or did someone just fuck up when writing the script? You decide.

[...]

An additional thing to consider here is that in the Ocean dub of these episodes, there are a few other instances of attacks being referred to using their Japanese names instead of the dub alternatives, which was not the case in the Funi dub.

My guess is that whoever rewrote Steve Simmons' translations (which were definitely in force at this point in the dub) forgot to change all of the attack names, and then the Funimation director of these episodes noticed this problem and corrected most of these issues but not this one (since it justifiably seems to be a differently-named attack from Funi's "Destructo disc", being a different attack according to Kaio), whereas the Ocean director didn't notice/care about the intricacies of attack names.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Spoiler:

In Funimation's original 2004 DVD single release of Z episode 172, they used the Dragon Box transfer of the series (though a somewhat less cleaned-up version, akin to their source material for their Dragon Ball GT DVDs). This is not the case on either the Australian release or the VHS release, both of which were mastered in 2002 using Funimation's own in-house DigiBeta transfer of their release prints.

Interesting, i'd sure like to know how that happened. My guess is somehow they got the Dragon Box version from Toei and since the DVD was released well over a year after the VHS they were sent it in that gap of time. Funny how this predated FUNimation getting the full Dragon Box Z run by five or so years and brings to question how long they actually had them by the time they were announced to be coming out in mid 2009.

Honestly, I think Toei probably gave Funi ALL of the pre-final Z/GT DBox masters in like 2003, when they acquired those masters of GT. But they never really put the Z masters to use because they thought of their own new scans of their film prints as being better. (And in fairness, the Dragon Box video has always been disappointingly poor-quality; a GOOD scan of Funi's film would look a million times better, every time, such as on the Ultimate Uncut copy of Z episode 1)

One thing is clear to me, though: The US Dragon Box DVDs didn't need to be anywhere near as fucking expensive or limited as they were.

Not sure why they used the DBox footage on this one episode, probably just a mistake.

So here’s something…interesting Funimation did.

In the Japanese version when Cell summons Freeza’s flying death circle thing he says nothing. Kuririn wonders if it’s his kienzan and Yamucha notes it follows the target like his sokidan. Kaio says it’s neither the kienzan nor the sokidan but the last technique Freeza used on Namek.

In the Funimation dub Cell actually says “kienzan disk” Krillin wonders if its his technique but doesn’t actually refer to destructo disk by name. Yamcha doesn’t reference his special technique at all and just notes how it follows Goku. And then Kai says pretty much the same thing he said in the Japanese version.

So was Funimation referencing the Japanese version by giving the name of Freeza’s attack the correct name for Kuririn’s similar move or did someone just fuck up when writing the script? You decide.

[...]

An additional thing to consider here is that in the Ocean dub of these episodes, there are a few other instances of attacks being referred to using their Japanese names instead of the dub alternatives, which was not the case in the Funi dub.

My guess is that whoever rewrote Steve Simmons' translations (which were definitely in force at this point in the dub) forgot to change all of the attack names, and then the Funimation director of these episodes noticed this problem and corrected most of these issues but not this one (since it justifiably seems to be a differently-named attack from Funi's "Destructo disc", being a different attack according to Kaio), whereas the Ocean director didn't notice/care about the intricacies of attack names.

Yeah, i wouldn't be surprised if FUNi had actually received the Dragon Box Z masters alongside the pre DBox GT copies in full years before they actually got around to releasing them on DVD but sat on them while doing the other preceding releases (UUE, Orange Bricks.etc) first. The DBox Z video is indeed not that great quality especially nowadays 17+ years later, though that is more on Toei and Pony Canyon back when they were initially transferring the 16mm film transfers back in 2002/2003 when they could have just as easily done much more including actual color correction. Agreed on the limited part, i am really lucky to have gotten them all for the aftermarket prices i did because there's no way in hell was going to pay $1,000+ for a full set.

It is odd how that one episode in that quality showed up randomly on said disc while the other two were the lower quality digibeta versions, so must have been an oversight or error of some kind.

[Robo4900]

they could have just as easily done much more including actual color correction.

Colour correction wasn't the only problem with the DBoxes. The motion blur DNR, the small picture frame, the generally overly-soft/blurry/unfocussed picture, the crushing (both black and white), etc. are all serious issues.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

they could have just as easily done much more including actual color correction.

Colour correction wasn't the only problem with the DBoxes. The motion blur DNR, the small picture frame, the generally overly-soft/blurry/unfocussed picture, the crushing (both black and white), etc. are all serious issues.

True, it appears there was little attention paid on Pony Canyon and Toei's part in regard to those things when in the process of doing the transfers of the film prints for the Dragon Boxes back then. My thinking is they only did so much work with the raw first generation originals in the remastering stage to prep the video for disc and after a certain point just threw them into the encoder and left it at that.

I'm sure all these things could've been fixed and the DNR (though not nearly to the extent of most of FUNi's releases to varying degrees since the Orange Bricks) not done. In particular the color cast issue because by 2002/2003 i'm sure Toei and likely Pony Canyon as well had advanced enough color correction tools on their computers at the time that could fix the red/pink/blue/green tones which are consistently present through most of the episodes but in particular OG DB and early Z. I'm not under the illusion that the Dragon Boxes are flawless, they aren't but even then i still find them easier on the eyes than most all of FUNi's post 2007 garbage releases.