The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem

[Ssj3Engels]

OK, so I recently finished (re)watching the Cell Games for the first time in many, many years (though there are two more episodes left to really finish the Android arc per se), and something that has always kinda bugged me started to, well...bug me again.

The simple fact of the matter is: it is utterly exagerated and overdone for the Androids to be so strong and overpowered. The whole point of the Saiyan race and the trip to Namek was to justify how strong Goku and Co. (even his enemies such as Freeza and his minions) could be, due to their nature as ALIENS. No one could be so strong among HUMANS.

And NOW (well, 1992 or something...), you're telling me that these Jinzoningen built on EARTH, born out of the freaking RED RIBBON ARMY, which no one at this point in the story could barely remember, are stronger than the aliens and even the Super Saiyans?!?!

I know logic isn't one of DB's ''strenghts'', but this is just flat-out nonsense. And what's worse, it's part of the original run, so we can blame Toriyama and no one else for this mess.

Finally, I don't care how brillant Dr. Maki Gero was, there was no way he could built half-human, half-robot creatures who were stronger than Freeza.

/rant over

[Yuli Ban]

Finally, I don't care how brillant Dr. Maki Gero was, there was no way he could built half-human, half-robot creatures who were stronger than Freeza.

Well he did.

___________________________________

This plot hole has bothered me for a while too. There are really two "logical" explanations (if you mean "logical within the confines of Dragon Ball").
1 fits in with the whole theme of power levels and the Freeza Force's misunderstanding of ki, but it's still a hard sell. In this case, you have to remember that the Artificial Humans don't have ki. It's like trying to detect the power level of a hydrogen bomb. If you ran a scouter against Tsar Bomba, it'd come back as "0" because there is no ki to detect. That's essentially the same principle here, but that just explains why the senshi couldn't detect their energy, not why they were so outrageously strong. Simply put, Dr. Gero invented some extreme energy-creating device that he could've used to pay every electricity bill on the planet, but he instead put them into some robots and teenagers to try to kill a monkey. Some ultra-battery tech that'd make Elon Musk raise an eyebrow. Still... how? Well it's a fantasy story, so I won't stress over the details.

2 would be interesting if they really built on it. In this situation, Dr. Gero managed to draw out all human potential through the power of technology. Why a couple of teenage brats have more strength potential than messianic alien warriors, I couldn't tell you, but maybe that just says more about the frightening potential of Earthlings. If Earthlings had their potential unlocked, they'd be the mightiest race in the cosmos, where even a couple of ragamuffin youths could squash a Super Saiyan or galactic tyrant.

In the end, it doesn't even matter.

[MasenkoHA]

They have technology that can store literally anything in tiny capsules.


A teenage girl, in her quest for dick, made a tracking device that picked up energy waves from MAGICAL spheres created by an alien refugee.


But some old geezers making half human half machine fighters that are more powerful than an alien emperor is just too much?

[Zephyr]

I think a Red Ribbon scientist being angry enough at Goku to cybernetically enhance himself (+goon and backup goons) to throw hands with Goku directly is perfectly consistent with Dragon Ball's mix of "wacky humor" and "kung fu melodrama" logic. It's more than enough of a hook for another story that will end with people fighting, and the absurdity of it is kinda funny.

Gero effectively built his own "Red Ribbon martial arts school" to kill Goku's. I honestly would have loved to see where Toriyama's original Gero-centric arc was going to go, but I do also like the way it ended: with Kondo leaving a "martial arts tournament" between Gero's ultimate champion, and Goku's ultimate champion, where the latter proves victorious. Its a good set up for the Boo arc, Dragon Ball's ending, where Goku returns from the dead with the soul of a god to reform the final and greatest antagonist into his school's true champion.

[PurestEvil]

They have technology that can store literally anything in tiny capsules.


A teenage girl, in her quest for dick, made a tracking device that picked up energy waves from MAGICAL spheres created by an alien refugee.


But some old geezers making half human half machine fighters that are more powerful than an alien emperor is just too much?

Let's not forget the gravity multiplier machines

[Robo4900]

They have technology that can store literally anything in tiny capsules.

A teenage girl, in her quest for dick, made a tracking device that picked up energy waves from MAGICAL spheres created by an alien refugee.

But some old geezers making half human half machine fighters that are more powerful than an alien emperor is just too much?

I kind of want to frame this.

[MyVisionity]

Yes, it is fairly absurd on the surface, and particularly glaring when it follows the Freeza saga. But Toriyama was likely just running out of ideas at this point, so it's no surprise.

That said, the idea of the Jinzoningen being as powerful as they were does make sense based on Gero having observed and analyzed Goku and them for years and utilizing mathematics and science to build superior warriors. It's all about how with science you can replicate years of martial arts training and unique genetic abilities.

That combined with Gero's energy reactors makes it believable.

[Adamant]

Some guy being so strong he can literally destroy the moon with a single hit is okay, and some other guy being over ONE MILLION times stronger than that guy is also perfectly okay, but a human being technologically enhanced to be what, 50% stronger or so than that second guy is going too far?

Dragonball's power scaling went way beyond absurd half a year into its run.

[ABED]

They have technology that can store literally anything in tiny capsules.


A teenage girl, in her quest for dick, made a tracking device that picked up energy waves from MAGICAL spheres created by an alien refugee.


But some old geezers making half human half machine fighters that are more powerful than an alien emperor is just too much?

Let's not forget the gravity multiplier machines

At the very least, Dr. Brief and Bulma have the resources of the biggest company in the world. Dr. Gero created those cyborgs on his own in the mountains.

At the end of the day, I shrug. The arc has MUCH bigger issues.

[Cure Dragon 255]

OK, so I recently finished (re)watching the Cell Games for the first time in many, many years (though there are two more episodes left to really finish the Android arc per se), and something that has always kinda bugged me started to, well...bug me again.

The simple fact of the matter is: it is utterly exagerated and overdone for the Androids to be so strong and overpowered. The whole point of the Saiyan race and the trip to Namek was to justify how strong Goku and Co. (even his enemies such as Freeza and his minions) could be, due to their nature as ALIENS. No one could be so strong among HUMANS.

And NOW (well, 1992 or something...), you're telling me that these Jinzoningen built on EARTH, born out of the freaking RED RIBBON ARMY, which no one at this point in the story could barely remember, are stronger than the aliens and even the Super Saiyans?!?!

I know logic isn't one of DB's ''strenghts'', but this is just flat-out nonsense. And what's worse, it's part of the original run, so we can blame Toriyama and no one else for this mess.

Finally, I don't care how brillant Dr. Maki Gero was, there was no way he could built half-human, half-robot creatures who were stronger than Freeza.

/rant over

First there is no Doctor Maki Gero. There is only Dr Gero. But I still love that you are a fan of the Latin American dub.

[Jack Bz]

With android 19 and himself this has never bothered me, and I've always seen it as a pretty reasonable power escalation. Gero at the very least studied Goku and it took decades of work to realise. Probably most of Goku's life.

With 17 and 18 you can tell that there were big edits going on behind the scenes. Toriyama makes a point of Gero not knowing anything about super saiyan and realising that he's gravely miscalculated everything...only to have him actually have made 17 and 18 who are well beyond a regular super saiyan. It just about works, but he was writing by the skin of his teeth.

[Polyphase Avatron]

With android 19 and himself this has never bothered me, and I've always seen it as a pretty reasonable power escalation. Gero at the very least studied Goku and it took decades of work to realise. Probably most of Goku's life.

With 17 and 18 you can tell that there were big edits going on behind the scenes. Toriyama makes a point of Gero not knowing anything about super saiyan and realising that he's gravely miscalculated everything...only to have him actually have made 17 and 18 who are well beyond a regular super saiyan. It just about works, but he was writing by the skin of his teeth.

Wasn't Dr. Gero's reaction to first seeing SSJ basically 'Oh, that's interesting, but nothing we can't handle'? Of course he could have been bluffing.

[ABED]

He stopped studying Goku after the fight against Vegeta because based on his calculations and factor's such as Goku's age, he didn't believe Goku would make many more great gains.

[Yuji]

He stopped studying Goku after the fight against Vegeta because based on his calculations and factor's such as Goku's age, he didn't believe Goku would make many more great gains.

A ridiculous assumption, in hindsight, considering Goku's power skyrocketed dramatically in one year from the Raditz fight to the Vegeta invasion. We can assume he still took that boost into consideration for calculating the power his androids would have in the next four years, but you'd think someone following Goku for so long would be more aware of his potential for gaining strength.

[TobyS]

He stopped studying Goku after the fight against Vegeta because based on his calculations and factor's such as Goku's age, he didn't believe Goku would make many more great gains.

A ridiculous assumption, in hindsight, considering Goku's power skyrocketed dramatically in one year from the Raditz fight to the Vegeta invasion. We can assume he still took that boost into consideration for calculating the power his androids would have in the next four years, but you'd think someone following Goku for so long would be more aware of his potential for gaining strength.

Eh if the spybots heard about he trained in heaven he probably figured “well that was a one shot deal he can't do that again”

Plus he made them so many times stronger then base Goku even after Namek was, Gero was unlucky that Goku happened to be not only a Saiyan but a legendary super one at that AND the best martial artists in the universe and trained in the fucking afterlife, it's almost unfair.

[BWri]

With a power system based on the accumulation of ki or spiritual energy, I think it makes a lot of sense for a scientist to be able to harness that and multiply it with a mathematical formula. Thematically, it works well as Gero's creations follow the sci-fi inspired Freeza arc.

What would have brought it all home is if the humans chosen were also martial artists. I don't think the concept would have bothered as many people then.

Spoiler:

I also think Gero's calculations make more sense than random space aliens just being born hundreds and millions of times stronger Kami and Piccolo Daimaou.

He stopped studying Goku after the fight against Vegeta because based on his calculations and factor's such as Goku's age, he didn't believe Goku would make many more great gains.

A ridiculous assumption, in hindsight, considering Goku's power skyrocketed dramatically in one year from the Raditz fight to the Vegeta invasion. We can assume he still took that boost into consideration for calculating the power his androids would have in the next four years, but you'd think someone following Goku for so long would be more aware of his potential for gaining strength.

Yeah, if you include his max power with KK to how he started the Raditz fight a year earlier you get some crazy calcs much higher than SSJ on Namek.

[Krillin1994]

They have technology that can store literally anything in tiny capsules.


A teenage girl, in her quest for dick, made a tracking device that picked up energy waves from MAGICAL spheres created by an alien refugee.


But some old geezers making half human half machine fighters that are more powerful than an alien emperor is just too much?

Let's not forget the gravity multiplier machines

At the very least, Dr. Brief and Bulma have the resources of the biggest company in the world. Dr. Gero created those cyborgs on his own in the mountains.

At the end of the day, I shrug. The arc has MUCH bigger issues.

He started work on androids whilst with the Red Ribbon army, so guess he had access to a lot of resources then at that time. Could just say he always pilfered those resources during his time, for a secret backup lab if one got compromised. Or just picked at the remains after it got detsroyed. Could also have used older models to help him work. - I envision android 19 helping him out around the lab, so others could have done so too.

[Wizard Sesame]

I never had a problem with it. I just assume there was something similar to Moore's Law for the androids, but with their level of power. Each next generation doubles or triples what was possible in the last. So if Eighter started a little more powerful than we assume, by the time he reaches 16 it could have been an exponential increase. Plus, if he never actually built androids 9-12, he could have spent more of his time trying to increase the power rather than wasting his time building bodies or what have you.

As for 17 and 18, I always just went with the idea that the reactor takes the ki of the two androids and exponentially increases it into the android power, which is why they can't be sensed and why 17 could become so powerful: he increased his ki from 5 to 100, which made his power go sky high.

Generally just fanon, but I have no problem with it at all.

[ABED]

I never had a problem with it. I just assume there was something similar to Moore's Law for the androids, but with their level of power. Each next generation doubles or triples what was possible in the last. So if Eighter started a little more powerful than we assume, by the time he reaches 16 it could have been an exponential increase. Plus, if he never actually built androids 9-12, he could have spent more of his time trying to increase the power rather than wasting his time building bodies or what have you.

As for 17 and 18, I always just went with the idea that the reactor takes the ki of the two androids and exponentially increases it into the android power, which is why they can't be sensed and why 17 could become so powerful: he increased his ki from 5 to 100, which made his power go sky high.

Generally just fanon, but I have no problem with it at all.

He is able to utilize Moore's Law single handedly?

[Ssj3Engels]

OK, so I recently finished (re)watching the Cell Games for the first time in many, many years (though there are two more episodes left to really finish the Android arc per se), and something that has always kinda bugged me started to, well...bug me again.

The simple fact of the matter is: it is utterly exagerated and overdone for the Androids to be so strong and overpowered. The whole point of the Saiyan race and the trip to Namek was to justify how strong Goku and Co. (even his enemies such as Freeza and his minions) could be, due to their nature as ALIENS. No one could be so strong among HUMANS.

And NOW (well, 1992 or something...), you're telling me that these Jinzoningen built on EARTH, born out of the freaking RED RIBBON ARMY, which no one at this point in the story could barely remember, are stronger than the aliens and even the Super Saiyans?!?!

I know logic isn't one of DB's ''strenghts'', but this is just flat-out nonsense. And what's worse, it's part of the original run, so we can blame Toriyama and no one else for this mess.

Finally, I don't care how brillant Dr. Maki Gero was, there was no way he could built half-human, half-robot creatures who were stronger than Freeza.

/rant over

First there is no Doctor Maki Gero. There is only Dr Gero. But I still love that you are a fan of the Latin American dub.

I did not known "Maki" was not in the original. And yes, I have been influenced by the Latin American dub, as the Brazilian dub (which was the one I grew up with) was based off of it.