The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
-
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1371
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:12 pm
- Location: Zambia, Southern Africa
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
Dr Gero made an infinitely powerful battery and transplanted it into a series of cyborgs.
Moreover, he did it in a CAVE, WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!
Moreover, he did it in a CAVE, WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!
"Don't take pleasure in destruction!" / "I will not let you destroy my world!"
A true hero goes beyond not the limits of power, but the limits that divide countries and people.
A true hero goes beyond not the limits of power, but the limits that divide countries and people.
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
No, not really. Toriyama had planned 19 and 20 to be the main antagonists for this arc. As we've seen, their specialty was absorbing Ki.Ssj3Engels wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:47 pm And what's worse, it's part of the original run, so we can blame Toriyama and no one else for this mess.
Super Saiyan Goku was stronger than both of them, but his Heart Virus made him vulnerable. This way, 19 absorbed some powerful energy out of him and would most likely share it with Dr. Gero too later.
This would make them formidable antagonists, now on the level of Super Saiyan alongside their Android hax abilities. Vegeta would later come into the play to support the Z-Fighters in the fight against them, but this would be a more close fight with some twists, rather than an easy stomp like it was.
Toriyama's editor changed, so he's technically to blame for this (not that I mind, we got some cool characters out of it), but yeah, plot-wise it didn't make much sense.
This is my speculation, but it's the most plausible way this arc could've originally went.
- ABED
- Namekian Warrior
- Posts: 20280
- Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
- Location: Skippack, PA
- Contact:
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
The editor didn't change it. He simply suggested that 19 and 20 weren't suitable main antagonists and Toriyama trusted his judgment. He didn't have to agree. The blame still lies with Toriyama.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
Can’t really blame the editor or Toriyama when changing it was for the better. 19 and 20 sucked and not because they had to be retconned into decoy big bads.
- Polyphase Avatron
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 6643
- Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
19 maybe, but Dr. Gero himself was a great antagonist and a lot more could have been done with him IMO.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
Had Toriyama not changed his mind Jinzoningen 20 never would have been Dr.Gero in the first placePolyphase Avatron wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:47 am19 maybe, but Dr. Gero himself was a great antagonist and a lot more could have been done with him IMO.
- Cursed Lemon
- Advanced Regular
- Posts: 1377
- Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:29 pm
- Location: Location, Location
- Contact:
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
Go figure, this could've been a way to possibly get the human fighters up to par with the saiyans...OH WELLYuli Ban wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:11 pm 2 would be interesting if they really built on it. In this situation, Dr. Gero managed to draw out all human potential through the power of technology. Why a couple of teenage brats have more strength potential than messianic alien warriors, I couldn't tell you, but maybe that just says more about the frightening potential of Earthlings. If Earthlings had their potential unlocked, they'd be the mightiest race in the cosmos, where even a couple of ragamuffin youths could squash a Super Saiyan or galactic tyrant.
Special Beam Cannon!
(゚Д゚)σ 弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌⊃
(゚Д゚)σ 弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌弌⊃
-
- Beyond Newbie
- Posts: 131
- Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:54 am
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
What energy reactors? I don't remember that (granted, as said in the OP, I only rewatched the Cell Games portion of the arc).MyVisionity wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:35 pm Yes, it is fairly absurd on the surface, and particularly glaring when it follows the Freeza saga. But Toriyama was likely just running out of ideas at this point, so it's no surprise.
That said, the idea of the Jinzoningen being as powerful as they were does make sense based on Gero having observed and analyzed Goku and them for years and utilizing mathematics and science to build superior warriors. It's all about how with science you can replicate years of martial arts training and unique genetic abilities.
That combined with Gero's energy reactors makes it believable.
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
Well, that human did technically win the multiversal tournament via simple Earth training so there's that. If he trained with Whis, whose to say what he could do.Cursed Lemon wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 2:31 pmGo figure, this could've been a way to possibly get the human fighters up to par with the saiyans...OH WELLYuli Ban wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 4:11 pm 2 would be interesting if they really built on it. In this situation, Dr. Gero managed to draw out all human potential through the power of technology. Why a couple of teenage brats have more strength potential than messianic alien warriors, I couldn't tell you, but maybe that just says more about the frightening potential of Earthlings. If Earthlings had their potential unlocked, they'd be the mightiest race in the cosmos, where even a couple of ragamuffin youths could squash a Super Saiyan or galactic tyrant.
Cyborg tech, evil sealing, proto-Ultra Instinct, time travel, Dragon Ball detectors, etc. Earthlings are actually pretty scary.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-
-
- Banned
- Posts: 1834
- Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:51 pm
- Location: US
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
17 and 18 both have infinite energy reactors inside of them. They never run out of energy or get tired supposedly.Ssj3Engels wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:10 pm What energy reactors? I don't remember that (granted, as said in the OP, I only rewatched the Cell Games portion of the arc).
-
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1555
- Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:10 am
- Location: Earth-1218
- Contact:
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
You made the point I was about to in the best possible way.DragonBallFoodie wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:08 am Dr Gero made an infinitely powerful battery and transplanted it into a series of cyborgs.
Moreover, he did it in a CAVE, WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!
If some person managed to create this power on his own, that's stull not the most fantastical element in the entire series. Even of all events up to that point.
Playstation Network ID/Xbox Gamer Tag: AnonymousFriend
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063
-
- I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
- Posts: 1555
- Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:10 am
- Location: Earth-1218
- Contact:
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
Their power stays at their personal maximum capacity.MyVisionity wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:11 pm17 and 18 both have infinite energy reactors inside of them. They never run out of energy or get tired supposedly.Ssj3Engels wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:10 pm What energy reactors? I don't remember that (granted, as said in the OP, I only rewatched the Cell Games portion of the arc).
Playstation Network ID/Xbox Gamer Tag: AnonymousFriend
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
Eh, that was pretty much forshadowed from jump street when Piccolo said "Well gee it sure sounds like YOU'RE Dr. Gero" and while 20 dismisses it, that came off as a pretty obvious plot hook.MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:30 pmHad Toriyama not changed his mind Jinzoningen 20 never would have been Dr.Gero in the first placePolyphase Avatron wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:47 am19 maybe, but Dr. Gero himself was a great antagonist and a lot more could have been done with him IMO.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
Wasn’t it like 2 chapters after 19 and 20 were introduced that Piccolo made that comment? I don’t know what the lead time is for Toriyama scripting and drawing a chapter and it’s release but it sounded like the decision to make 19 and 20 not the real big bads happened really quicklyjjgp1112 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:49 pmEh, that was pretty much forshadowed from jump street when Piccolo said "Well gee it sure sounds like YOU'RE Dr. Gero" and while 20 dismisses it, that came off as a pretty obvious plot hook.MasenkoHA wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:30 pmHad Toriyama not changed his mind Jinzoningen 20 never would have been Dr.Gero in the first placePolyphase Avatron wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:47 am
19 maybe, but Dr. Gero himself was a great antagonist and a lot more could have been done with him IMO.
- FortuneSSJ
- Born 'n Bred Here
- Posts: 5812
- Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:07 pm
Re: The ''Jinzōningen'' Story Arc Problem
Yes, they being so strong is one of the proofs that power levels were already bullshit before DBS.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.