Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Yuji
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1107
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by Yuji » Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:10 pm

"Seven orbs scattered around the Earth when united grant a single wish," seems a simple enough pitch, no? The wuxia elements and Goku's narrative are, of course, integral to the Dragon Ball we know, but certainly the titular orbs could function in a vacuum in any number of scenarios.

Thoughts?

User avatar
Yuli Ban
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 797
Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:07 am
Location: New Orleans, LA
Contact:

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by Yuli Ban » Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:50 pm

Dragon Ball's basically a video game. It's the first litRPG story and nobody realized it.
The Yabanverse
My own take on Saiyajins in a fanverse.

BWri
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1712
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by BWri » Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:24 pm

Yuli Ban wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:50 pm Dragon Ball's basically a video game. It's the first litRPG story and nobody realized it.
lmao!
Yuji wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:10 pm "Seven orbs scattered around the Earth when united grant a single wish," seems a simple enough pitch, no? The wuxia elements and Goku's narrative are, of course, integral to the Dragon Ball we know, but certainly the titular orbs could function in a vacuum in any number of scenarios.

Thoughts?
I think it's a fairy tale. It just expands the normal wish granting premise into a whole adventure. You don't just need one McGuffin, you need 7. "To use this genie you need 7 lamps, go find them n00b!"
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by Cipher » Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:43 am

No, in that its success and identity depend basically entirely on its tone, style and execution.

Its elevator pitch is just a mish-mash of fantasy martial arts tropes plus one light hook/McGuffin; everything that makes it distinct comes from the fact that Toriyama’s putting his spin on it.

You can’t even really elevator pitch what turns out to be its actual focus and plot anyway (which certainly isn’t the DBs beyond the very first arc).

The label might hold for the length of the first arc and the first arc alone, and even then “an adventure comedy based on Journey to the West” still doesn’t quite hit what the term is meant to identify, I feel—way to broad and execution-dependent.

Generally when that term gets trotted out, it’s to identify fiction where the identify and hook can be delivered through a short premise description alone. I don’t think DB hits that.

User avatar
Adamant
I Live Here
Posts: 3322
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:02 pm
Location: Viking Land

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by Adamant » Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:02 am

Cipher wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 2:43 am The label might hold for the length of the first arc and the first arc alone, and even then “an adventure comedy based on Journey to the West” still doesn’t quite hit what the term is meant to identify, I feel—way to broad and execution-dependent.
The ORIGINAL pitch was "Journey to the West as written by the author of Dr. Slump", which is about as high concept as you can get. It just doesn't describe anything past the first half year.
Satan wrote:Lortedrøm! Bøh slog min datter ihjel! Hvad bilder du dig ind, Bøh?! Nu kommer Super-Satan og rydder op!

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by Cipher » Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:06 am

Adamant wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:02 am The ORIGINAL pitch was "Journey to the West as written by the author of Dr. Slump", which is about as high concept as you can get. It just doesn't describe anything past the first half year.
I don't know that "X adapted by this particular author in their style" is particularly "high-concept," though.

And as you note, it winds up being the pitch for a very brief portion of what DB goes on to be about.

User avatar
goku the krump dancer
I Live Here
Posts: 3571
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:13 am

Have any manga/anime depictions of Journey to the West ever been overly Popular? We know Dragon Ball didnt start really gaining momentum until its started shifting focus onto strictly Martial Arts and the only other JTTW manga series I can think of is "Saiyuki/Saiyuki Reload". I know that series was pretty popular in the mid 2000s but it never quite became a world class phenomenon like Full Metal Alchemist or Cowboy Bebop.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
Peace And Power MF DOOM!
Peace and Power Kevin Samuels

User avatar
Adamant
I Live Here
Posts: 3322
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:02 pm
Location: Viking Land

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by Adamant » Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:21 am

Cipher wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:06 am I don't know that "X adapted by this particular author in their style" is particularly "high-concept," though.
High concept means a short description that gives you a very good idea of what you're in for. "A story you know adapted by a person you know in their specific style" abolutely falls under that. The Michael Bay Tranformers movies can very very easily be described as "Transformers adapted by Michael Bay", which is the same thing. You know what the original was about and you know this particular creator's style, so "x adapted by y" gives you a good idea of what the end product is going to be.
Satan wrote:Lortedrøm! Bøh slog min datter ihjel! Hvad bilder du dig ind, Bøh?! Nu kommer Super-Satan og rydder op!

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:31 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:13 am Have any manga/anime depictions of Journey to the West ever been overly Popular? We know Dragon Ball didnt start really gaining momentum until its started shifting focus onto strictly Martial Arts and the only other JTTW manga series I can think of is "Saiyuki/Saiyuki Reload". I know that series was pretty popular in the mid 2000s but it never quite became a world class phenomenon like Full Metal Alchemist or Cowboy Bebop.
Is Inuyasha popular? Because it definitely took cues from Journey to the West

User avatar
goku the krump dancer
I Live Here
Posts: 3571
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 10:34 pm

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:03 pm

I'm guessing that's rhetorical but taking cues and being an almost spoof-like or direct adaptation aren't the same things.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
Peace And Power MF DOOM!
Peace and Power Kevin Samuels

User avatar
MasenkoHA
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6201
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:38 pm

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:08 pm

goku the krump dancer wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:03 pm I'm guessing that's rhetorical but taking cues and being an almost spoof-like adaptation are two different things.
It’s no less influenced by JttW than Dragon Ball was. The only thing Dragon Ball was more overt about was their Monkey King inspiration and giving the main hero the same name

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:40 pm

Adamant wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:21 am
Cipher wrote: Tue Jul 06, 2021 8:06 am I don't know that "X adapted by this particular author in their style" is particularly "high-concept," though.
High concept means a short description that gives you a very good idea of what you're in for. "A story you know adapted by a person you know in their specific style" abolutely falls under that. The Michael Bay Tranformers movies can very very easily be described as "Transformers adapted by Michael Bay", which is the same thing. You know what the original was about and you know this particular creator's style, so "x adapted by y" gives you a good idea of what the end product is going to be.
The idea also has to be novel. It's not simply a matter of being able to sum it up in a simple sentence.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:30 am

BWri wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:24 pmI think it's a fairy tale.
Wuxia can be (and in a great many cases, has often been) best described as "martial arts fairy tale fiction". Many of these stories have their origins in incredibly ancient myths (some of which are so old they literally predate any Chinese writing system and were originally passed down through oral retellings) and thus have always carried an air of "long ago in a magical far away land..." featuring magic, grand kingdoms, princes and princesses, monsters, dragons, chivalry, noble heroes and knight-errants, ancient bearded sages, adventures, quests... and yes, certainly also magical, ancient objects and artifacts with mystcal powers and an ancient lore behind them.

Don't forget that the Dragon Balls themselves were originally just stand-ins for the Buddhist Sutras (religious scrolls/writings of great metaphysical and spiritual significance) that Tripitaka/Tang Sanzang (i.e. Bulma) was searching for in Journey to the West when he first set out and happened across meeting Sun Wukong. Down to the fact that Toriyama made a point of giving them each distinctive Chinese names.

The biggest thing that separates Wuxia from traditional Western/medieval fairy tales as most English speakers know them, is the emphasis on martial arts and Chinese Daoist/Buddhist mysticism (and Confucian ideals of honor and chivalry). Apart from cultural divides like that though, Wuxia stories are pretty much often damn near indistinguishable from boilerplate fairy tales when distilled down to their most basic narrative essence.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

BWri
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1712
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by BWri » Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:29 am

Kunzait_83 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 7:30 am
BWri wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 6:24 pmI think it's a fairy tale.
Wuxia can be (and in a great many cases, has often been) best described as "martial arts fairy tale fiction". Many of these stories have their origins in incredibly ancient myths (some of which are so old they literally predate any Chinese writing system and were originally passed down through oral retellings) and thus have always carried an air of "long ago in a magical far away land..." featuring magic, grand kingdoms, princes and princesses, monsters, dragons, chivalry, noble heroes and knight-errants, ancient bearded sages, adventures, quests... and yes, certainly also magical, ancient objects and artifacts with mystcal powers and an ancient lore behind them.

Don't forget that the Dragon Balls themselves were originally just stand-ins for the Buddhist Sutras (religious scrolls/writings of great metaphysical and spiritual significance) that Tripitaka/Tang Sanzang (i.e. Bulma) was searching for in Journey to the West when he first set out and happened across meeting Sun Wukong. Down to the fact that Toriyama made a point of giving them each distinctive Chinese names.

The biggest thing that separates Wuxia from traditional Western/medieval fairy tales as most English speakers know them, is the emphasis on martial arts and Chinese Daoist/Buddhist mysticism (and Confucian ideals of honor and chivalry). Apart from cultural divides like that though, Wuxia stories are pretty much often damn near indistinguishable from boilerplate fairy tales when distilled down to their most basic narrative essence.
That's awesome! Thanks for the comparison! The Dragon Balls being stand-ins for the Buddhist sutras is particularly fascinating. I think the only Wuxia story I've watched so far (outside of DB) is "Storm Riders" which got me interested in its manhua Fung Wan and I quite enjoyed that one. I really need to dive further into the genre.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

User avatar
Kunzait_83
I Live Here
Posts: 2974
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:19 pm

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by Kunzait_83 » Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:45 am

BWri wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:29 amThat's awesome! Thanks for the comparison! The Dragon Balls being stand-ins for the Buddhist sutras is particularly fascinating.
In case you haven't read it, there's a whole entire thread where I wax on a MUCH greater detail about all this stuff.

BWri wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:29 amI think the only Wuxia story I've watched so far (outside of DB) is "Storm Riders" which got me interested in its manhua Fung Wan and I quite enjoyed that one. I really need to dive further into the genre.
Storm Riders/Fung Wan is an excellent place for newbies to the genre just coming into it fresh off of Dragon Ball to start (as is Zu: Warriors From the Magic Mountain, or Buddha's Palm). By all means, keep going! There's literally ENDLESS amounts more great Wuxia films, comics, TV shows, novels, video games, you name it! Much of it VERY much closely within DB's specific wheelhouse, much of it vastly different in its tone and presentation, and plenty more of countless shades in the middle.

That's what happens when you have such an old, OLD-ass genre like this that has been done so much across so much countless media across numerous decades/centuries: just about anything and everything under the sun has been tried and done with it, leaving a dense amount of content that's all over the place in how its been approached and presented throughout the generations.
http://80s90sdragonballart.tumblr.com/

Kunzait's Wuxia Thread
Journey to the West, chapter 26 wrote:The strong man will meet someone stronger still:
Come to naught at last he surely will!
Zephyr wrote:And that's to say nothing of how pretty much impossible it is to capture what made the original run of the series so great. I'm in the generation of fans that started with Toonami, so I totally empathize with the feeling of having "missed the party", experiencing disappointment, and wanting to experience it myself. But I can't, that's how life is. Time is a bitch. The party is over. Kageyama, Kikuchi, and Maeda are off the sauce now; Yanami almost OD'd; Yamamoto got arrested; Toriyama's not going to light trash cans on fire and hang from the chandelier anymore. We can't get the band back together, and even if we could, everyone's either old, in poor health, or calmed way the fuck down. Best we're going to get, and are getting, is a party that's almost entirely devoid of the magic that made the original one so awesome that we even want more.
Kamiccolo9 wrote:It grinds my gears that people get "outraged" over any of this stuff. It's a fucking cartoon. If you are that determined to be angry about something, get off the internet and make a stand for something that actually matters.
Rocketman wrote:"Shonen" basically means "stupid sentimental shit" anyway, so it's ok to be anti-shonen.

BWri
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1712
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: Is Dragon Ball high concept?

Post by BWri » Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:57 pm

Dope! Looks like an impressive amount of detail. I'll make sure to read through it. As I comb through the images, I can't help but love the flowey-ness of the designs and grandeur of the older master type characters. I wish there were more fighters like this in DB, you know, with the long draping clothing and hair. Mercenary Tao was the last one we got and his design was fantastic.
Storm Riders/Fung Wan is an excellent place for newbies to the genre just coming into it fresh off of Dragon Ball to start

Just caught the animated movie via Prime Video after your last response. I loved it! It's been a decade since I last watched the live-action movie, but the animated movie was fine as a standalone (since it showed the major events). Outside of the great martial arts action and visuals, I enjoyed that the movie didn't shy away from romance. It was the same with Storm Riders.
(as is Zu: Warriors From the Magic Mountain, or Buddha's Palm).

I'm going to look for these. **Buddha's Palm is on Prime Video but I'll have to order Zu: Warriors on Blu-ray. The trailers for both look fantastic!
By all means, keep going! There's literally ENDLESS amounts more great Wuxia films, comics, TV shows, novels, video games, you name it! Much of it VERY much closely within DB's specific wheelhouse, much of it vastly different in its tone and presentation, and plenty more of countless shades in the middle.

That's what happens when you have such an old, OLD-ass genre like this that has been done so much across so much countless media across numerous decades/centuries: just about anything and everything under the sun has been tried and done with it, leaving a dense amount of content that's all over the place in how its been approached and presented throughout the generations.
It's vast, which typically scares me as it feels impossible to fathom consuming all that content, but nowadays I just take it slow enjoying what I can at my own pace. Thanks for providing a starting point for the genre! I'll definitely be diving much deeper than DB and Storm Riders.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

Post Reply