Where Dragon Ball should have ended?

[Goku da Silva]

In a interview Toryiama discussed the moments when he considered ending it (the interview is here somewhere ), among the examples he gave i agree with him at the moment when Goku defeats Freeza. To me that would be the defintive end, after all if you keep prolonging it will gradually loose quality and it's essense. I recomend you to look for this interview in the site and comment here.

[JulieYBM]

Should've been canceled after the third chapter. The writing really went to shit after Toriyama stopped planning ahead.

[Grimlock]

Strictly speaking in terms of narrative, Freeza saga. Going full circle with Goku's character, finishing it at Freeza saga (and expanding more on Goku's backstory) should be good.

Although, obviously, it's not like what comes after that wouldn't be welcome too. Cell saga, Majin Buu saga, a great portion of Dragon Ball GT and Dragon Ball Online are all acceptable continuation, for sure.

[MasenkoHA]

Freeza is only a good ending for the Saiyan and Namek portion of the story.


If we’re talking about endings before Boo that would hage been as good or better than really the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament it’s a pretty natural conclusion and the open endings are justified (Piccolo is kept alive to keep Goku in top shape and to keep Kami alive)

[WittyUsername]

Either the 23rd Budokai or the Cell Games would’ve worked as endings, but I don’t dislike the ending that we got for the manga. It grew on me over the years.

[MyVisionity]

In a interview Toryiama discussed the moments when he considered ending it (the interview is here somewhere ), among the examples he gave i agree with him at the moment when Goku defeats Freeza.

I don't recall that Toriyama has ever stated such a thing in any interview, and according to the Intended Endings Guide on the main website, those are only rumors.

[Yuji]

The Pilaf arc, the 23rd TB, Namek and the Cell Games could all function organically as endings but I think the Boo arc is the strongest ending both in terms of the actual climax of the battle with Boo and the denouement following it.

[JulieYBM]

Freeza is only a good ending for the Saiyan and Namek portion of the story.


If we’re talking about endings before Boo that would hage been as good or better than really the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament it’s a pretty natural conclusion and the open endings are justified (Piccolo is kept alive to keep Goku in top shape and to keep Kami alive)

Agreed. It's basically the only semi-decent ending, although even then it's still flawed. As much as I love Toriyama's art Piccolo is still a sorely under developed antagonist and the goal seems far too linear.

[Cipher]

Of all the potential end points in the original series, the Boo arc really was the best one. I think it turned out just fine.

For Super, the ToP really could have easily been positioned as a conclusive finale, but neither version really went for it (not even the anime, where it literally is the TV series finale), so we’ll see how they feels in retrospect once the whole thing is over.

[Zephyr]

Yeah, it seems the main thrust of the story he wanted to tell was mostly complete with the Freeza arc, and it took most of the Cell arc for him to realize that, I think. Had he realized that sooner, we might have gotten something more akin to the Boo arc just after Freeza, rather than the "can this just keep going?" experiment that the Cell arc effectively acted as. He wrote Boo with it being the final arc in mind. Granted, he also wasn't under Kondo anymore. Maybe a timeline where he made a Boo-like arc & finale after Freeza would require Kondo's departure after Freeza, as well. Either way, I think something like the Boo arc was always the only way something like Dragon Ball could properly end: doubling back on itself into comedy, and I don't think Toriyama would have written Boo the way he did if he didn't also believe that to some extent.

Under a certain light, one might say that Freeza is the climax, Cell is filler, and Boo is the epilogue.

[ABED]

Freeza is only a good ending for the Saiyan and Namek portion of the story.


If we’re talking about endings before Boo that would hage been as good or better than really the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament it’s a pretty natural conclusion and the open endings are justified (Piccolo is kept alive to keep Goku in top shape and to keep Kami alive)

Agreed. It's basically the only semi-decent ending, although even then it's still flawed. As much as I love Toriyama's art Piccolo is still a sorely under developed antagonist and the goal seems far too linear.

He's not underdeveloped. He has a personality and a presense. Given he starts off as pure evil, the desire to kill people and strike terror in them makes a lot of sense. His reincarnation wants revenge. It's simple and understandable which tends to be better than complicating matters by trying to "develop" them, which often ends up as a villain with cliched motivations

With a few minor tweeks, the Freeza arc works the best.

[kemuri07]

Freeza is only a good ending for the Saiyan and Namek portion of the story.


If we’re talking about endings before Boo that would hage been as good or better than really the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament it’s a pretty natural conclusion and the open endings are justified (Piccolo is kept alive to keep Goku in top shape and to keep Kami alive)

Agreed. It's basically the only semi-decent ending, although even then it's still flawed. As much as I love Toriyama's art Piccolo is still a sorely under developed antagonist and the goal seems far too linear.

He's not underdeveloped. He has a personality and a presense. Given he starts off as pure evil, the desire to kill people and strike terror in them makes a lot of sense. His reincarnation wants revenge. It's simple and understandable which tends to be better than complicating matters by trying to "develop" them, which often ends up as a villain with cliched motivations

With a few minor tweeks, the Freeza arc works the best.

Piccolo's arc comes to an end when he sacrifices his life to save Gohan's. I know I know, some people angry at the mere suggestion that the Freeza arc was meant to be an ending point for this series, but I think it works perfectly. Goku finally takes the mantle as the strongest in the world, Gohan is handed the baton, and you literally could have ended the series while being ambiguous whether Goku actually survived the blast or not.

[ABED]

Okay, but the arc doesn't become an arc until the Saiyan arc. As he is at the end of the 23rd TB works fine. Piccolo's character arc is only obvious in retrospect

[kemuri07]

Okay, but the arc doesn't become an arc until the Saiyan arc. As he is at the end of the 23rd TB works fine. Piccolo's character arc is only obvious in retrospect

Right. You could end it there with Piccolo being the "Vegeta" and becoming Goku's rival. Dragonball has a perfect ending via the "and then the hero went off to find new adventures" route.

But then came Z and, as they say, the rest is history.

[MasenkoHA]

Piccolo's arc comes to an end when he sacrifices his life to save Gohan's.

Piccolo’s arc also only starts at the Saiyan arc. In the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament he’s just the villain.

I know I know, some people angry at the mere suggestion that the Freeza arc was meant to be an ending point for this series

It’s factually wrong to say it was meant to be an ending point

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/intended-end/freeza/

. Goku finally takes the mantle as the strongest in the world,

Preeeeetty sure he officially took the mantle when he won the Strongest Under The Heavens Tournament two arcs prior.

Gohan is handed the baton, and you literally could have ended the series while being ambiguous whether Goku actually survived the blast or not.

Gohan was handed nothing. He goes back to being a normal little boy (albeit an absurdly strong one) which is fine Gohan didn’t want to be a fighter. He only went to Namek out of respect for Piccolo.

And you can’t keep Goku’s survival ambiguous. The Dragon Team asked Porunga to revive him. They were going to get confirmation one way or the other.

[kemuri07]

I was talking more about Z. And sure we know he survived, but the series absolutely can end with us never knowing exactly what happened to Goku: He's the legendary Super Saiyan, and whether or not he comes back is ambiguous.

While I wasn't necessarily saying that Toriyama intended for the series to end, that link that posted doesn't exactly disprove that idea either. More than likely we'll never know the real answer, but I think the structure of the Freeza Saga suggests that, at the very least, was intended to be one, long stand-alone story as opposed to how he went about the story in the original DB, and what he'd do post-Freeza.

[ABED]

I was talking more about Z. And sure we know he survived, but the series absolutely can end with us never knowing exactly what happened to Goku: He's the legendary Super Saiyan, and whether or not he comes back is ambiguous.

While I wasn't necessarily saying that Toriyama intended for the series to end, that link that posted doesn't exactly disprove that idea either. More than likely we'll never know the real answer, but I think the structure of the Freeza Saga suggests that, at the very least, was intended to be one, long stand-alone story as opposed to how he went about the story in the original DB, and what he'd do post-Freeza.

But the series wasn't building towards him being the legendary Super Saiyan. We didn't even know that was a thing. If a series finale sums things up, how does that sum up the journey we had been on to that point?

[pepd]

Pilaf, 23 Tenkaichi Budokai or Namek could work as finals with minor modifications, but I feel it would be a real loss to not have the Buu arc, where the essence of DB is freed stronger than ever, and its final.

[precita]

The original end of DBZ with the end of the Boo arc was the perfect time. GT had some good concepts that were executed poorly, and while I like most of Super, it did feel like Dragon Ball was done with Boo.

Toriyama originally ended it at the right time.

[MasenkoHA]

I was talking more about Z. And sure we know he survived, but the series absolutely can end with us never knowing exactly what happened to Goku: He's the legendary Super Saiyan, and whether or not he comes back is ambiguous.

While I wasn't necessarily saying that Toriyama intended for the series to end, that link that posted doesn't exactly disprove that idea either. More than likely we'll never know the real answer, but I think the structure of the Freeza Saga suggests that, at the very least, was intended to be one, long stand-alone story as opposed to how he went about the story in the original DB, and what he'd do post-Freeza.

But you do understand everything from Bulma and Goku meeting to Goku leaving with Oob is all Dragon Ball right? There is no distinction between the original Dragon Ball and “Z” when it comes to the manga.


And in the link there is a source where Toriyama said he wasn’t ready for Dragon Ball to end…in a magazine published while the Freeza arc was wrapping up. So yes it does disprove the idea that Toriyama intended for the story to end at Freeza.

There is nothing about the way the Freeza saga is structured that suggest it was meant to be the end. It only feels like a series finale if you skip 194 chapters of the manga.


Hell, it’s only the end of the Son Goku arc and 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai arc where Toriyama needs to assure the reader the story isn’t over “just yet” not because he intended to end there but because they actually feel like proper endings. The Namek arc does not.