Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
SuperSaiyaManZ94
I Live Here
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:01 pm
Location: Alabama, USA

Re: Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:38 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:10 pm
DragonBallFoodie wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:42 pm The dub makes it somewhat stronger than the Japanese version, but is it inaccurate or unfaithful?
Yes, because the English dub has Goku saying crap that’s just plain out of character. Sure Toei makes Goku was more heroic than what Toriyama intended but he still acts like a kung fu hick. He’s not lecturing villains about the sword of injustice and how their evil deeds are like a noose around their necks.

Not endearing to a massive level, but enough to make him identifiable to popular opinion.
But that’s just it. American fans DO NOT identify with Goku- The Japanese Silver Age Superman. They identify with Goku the guy who is always working to improve himself
You know, it makes me wonder sometimes if FUNi's script people had seen Toriyama's manga interpretation as well as anime Goku and took issue with the former thus deciding to foist this dialogue upon him and take what Toei had already done with his character beforehand up to 11 with their own interpretation. It's obvious that they were trying to make him fit the more played up moral hero mold of the Western world as we know it. Stuff like the infamous "Hope of the universe" line just really sounds like the kind of over the top cliche thing that a comic book superhero would say.
DB collection related goals as of now:

1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4 (Done)

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

User avatar
Polyphase Avatron
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6643
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:48 am

Re: Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:56 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:38 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:10 pm
DragonBallFoodie wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:42 pm The dub makes it somewhat stronger than the Japanese version, but is it inaccurate or unfaithful?
Yes, because the English dub has Goku saying crap that’s just plain out of character. Sure Toei makes Goku was more heroic than what Toriyama intended but he still acts like a kung fu hick. He’s not lecturing villains about the sword of injustice and how their evil deeds are like a noose around their necks.

Not endearing to a massive level, but enough to make him identifiable to popular opinion.
But that’s just it. American fans DO NOT identify with Goku- The Japanese Silver Age Superman. They identify with Goku the guy who is always working to improve himself
You know, it makes me wonder sometimes if FUNi's script people had seen Toriyama's manga interpretation as well as anime Goku and took issue with the former thus deciding to foist this dialogue upon him and take what Toei had already done with his character beforehand up to 11 with their own interpretation. It's obvious that they were trying to make him fit the more played up moral hero mold of the Western world as we know it. Stuff like the infamous "Hope of the universe" line just really sounds like the kind of over the top cliche thing that a comic book superhero would say.
I don't get why so many people seem to assume that every American superhero has the personality of the most generic version of Superman.

I mean if you take Batman for example, his whole shtick is inspiring fear in criminals. He's also usually very short and to the point when speaking to villains - making a big speech about how he's the hero and is going to save everyone would be pretty out of character for him.

Or Thor - just like Goku, he loves fighting and will often let it get in the way of his better judgment. One time the Hulk was on a rampage and Thor's first thought was to just throw down with him in the middle of the city, because he wanted to match strength with him. When it was later pointed out that he could have avoided all of the collateral damage that caused by just using the magical abilities of his hammer to send the Hulk to another dimension, he admitted he was too excited by the prospect of battle to think of that at the time.

And the Hulk himself mostly just wants to be left alone, doesn't get along well with other heroes, and only maybe about half of the heroic things he does are even intentional.

Then Spider-Man is the down-on-his-luck everyman who's typically more worried about taking care of his aunt and paying his bills than he is about protecting the world.

It's a weird idea that people seem to have that every superhero is like FUNImation dub Goku.
Cool stuff that I upload here because Youtube will copyright claim it: https://vimeo.com/user60967147

User avatar
SuperSaiyaManZ94
I Live Here
Posts: 2712
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2019 9:01 pm
Location: Alabama, USA

Re: Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:32 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:56 pm
SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:38 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:10 pm

Yes, because the English dub has Goku saying crap that’s just plain out of character. Sure Toei makes Goku was more heroic than what Toriyama intended but he still acts like a kung fu hick. He’s not lecturing villains about the sword of injustice and how their evil deeds are like a noose around their necks.




But that’s just it. American fans DO NOT identify with Goku- The Japanese Silver Age Superman. They identify with Goku the guy who is always working to improve himself
You know, it makes me wonder sometimes if FUNi's script people had seen Toriyama's manga interpretation as well as anime Goku and took issue with the former thus deciding to foist this dialogue upon him and take what Toei had already done with his character beforehand up to 11 with their own interpretation. It's obvious that they were trying to make him fit the more played up moral hero mold of the Western world as we know it. Stuff like the infamous "Hope of the universe" line just really sounds like the kind of over the top cliche thing that a comic book superhero would say.
I don't get why so many people seem to assume that every American superhero has the personality of the most generic version of Superman.

I mean if you take Batman for example, his whole shtick is inspiring fear in criminals. He's also usually very short and to the point when speaking to villains - making a big speech about how he's the hero and is going to save everyone would be pretty out of character for him.

Or Thor - just like Goku, he loves fighting and will often let it get in the way of his better judgment. One time the Hulk was on a rampage and Thor's first thought was to just throw down with him in the middle of the city, because he wanted to match strength with him. When it was later pointed out that he could have avoided all of the collateral damage that caused by just using the magical abilities of his hammer to send the Hulk to another dimension, he admitted he was too excited by the prospect of battle to think of that at the time.

And the Hulk himself mostly just wants to be left alone, doesn't get along well with other heroes, and only maybe about half of the heroic things he does are even intentional.

Then Spider-Man is the down-on-his-luck everyman who's typically more worried about taking care of his aunt and paying his bills than he is about protecting the world.

It's a weird idea that people seem to have that every superhero is like FUNImation dub Goku.
OK, guess i was a little too broad in my analysis there. No it is true that not all of them are cut from the same cloth in the way that FUNi depicted Goku in the Z dub.
DB collection related goals as of now:

1.) Find decent priced copy of Dragon Box Z Vol. 4 (Done)

2.) Collect rest of manga

3.) Get rest of Daizenshuu (2-7)

Anonymous Friend
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1555
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:10 am
Location: Earth-1218
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

Post by Anonymous Friend » Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:46 pm

X-men TAS and Spider-man TAS had longer episode arcs and things would play off the events of previous episodes. Another show that did this was Gargoyles. Gargoyles took this further by having a main character get injured and spend a few episodes recovering. Or have a characters get seperated from the main group and several episodes with them trying to get back.

Dragonball's serialization is just having some stuff happen, episode ends, next episodes some stuff happens. When some of that stuff happens is fighting and action, that was great.

I gravitated to DBZ because I was already interested in super powers and video games and stuff. And here's this guy do a shinkuuhadouken from the Marvel vs games.
Playstation Network ID/Xbox Gamer Tag: AnonymousFriend
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20276
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:23 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:46 pm X-men TAS and Spider-man TAS had longer episode arcs and things would play off the events of previous episodes. Another show that did this was Gargoyles. Gargoyles took this further by having a main character get injured and spend a few episodes recovering. Or have a characters get seperated from the main group and several episodes with them trying to get back.

Dragonball's serialization is just having some stuff happen, episode ends, next episodes some stuff happens. When some of that stuff happens is fighting and action, that was great.

I gravitated to DBZ because I was already interested in super powers and video games and stuff. And here's this guy do a shinkuuhadouken from the Marvel vs games.
That explanation of serialization is so broad that it applies to anything.

DB's serialization was different from most because it few of the stories began and ended within the same episode. Even in Gargoyles, their storyarcs would be made up of episodes where the stories began and ended within the same episode like that insufferably long arc where Goliath is trying to get back home.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
DBZAOTA482
Banned
Posts: 6995
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:41 am

The main reason DBZ became so popular in the west is because it was unlike anything that was airing at the time. It was very story-driven having continuous storylines that would go for multiple episodes at a time which is common of its kind, but pretty much unheard of with western animation (and still uncommon today). It also was extremely violent for a kid's show even with censorship.

It's popularity is only tangibly related to the dub especially considering it's more popular in Latin America than anywhere else even Japan.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.

I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.

User avatar
GhostEmperorX
Regular
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:53 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

Post by GhostEmperorX » Fri Jul 16, 2021 9:48 pm

How many times has this exact same discussion been had in general now? We should be far past the point but here we go again.

It was a popular show at home (where it counts the most) & abroad (Europe, Latin America, Middle East, etc), why would the story have been any different when it came to the US? There's no "Exceptionalism" excuse that can justify this either. Like others said, surface level changes wouldn't have turned people off from the series, they'd just get a different kind of dialogue & atmosphere from what they're normally used to, which is sort of the point of watching foreign media.

precita
Banned
Posts: 6037
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

Post by precita » Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:27 am

It's the same reason Pokemon and Sailor Moon became popular in the west. All these shows came out at a time where anime was relatively unknown in the west and unlike any cartoons that were airing at the time.

Even when I was a kid I knew Pokemon, Dragonball Z, and Sailor Moon, "weren't quite the same" as the cartoons I was watching at the time, and of course I knew they were from Japan shortly after. I think some of you have seriously forgotten what it was like when anime was "obscure" and not mainstream like it is now. That type of animation style and humor you see in anime was completely different than any American cartoon at the time, like characters falling down when they're embarrassed, the sweatmarks, the weird exaggerated funny anime faces for humor purposes, etc.

It was a culture shock. For those of us who were there at the time it really was different. Also as said, the higher level of continuity between episodes made you want to stick around and tune in more to see what happened next. Most western cartoons aired on TV out of order, and it didn't matter since there was very little continuity. You can jump in at any random episode of Batman or Ninja Turtles and not be confused what was happening.

User avatar
Yosheets
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 61
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 12:45 am

Re: Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

Post by Yosheets » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:13 pm

I remember when Dragon Ball Z, Naruto, and Bleach were like the faces of Anime and Manga in the West in the 2000s. All three of them were literal phenomena. Other popular series like One Piece (outside of the English Manga), InuYasha, and Fullmetal Alchemist could not hold a handle to the former three.

Anonymous Friend
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1555
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:10 am
Location: Earth-1218
Contact:

Re: Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

Post by Anonymous Friend » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:21 pm

ABED wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:23 pm
Anonymous Friend wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 2:46 pm X-men TAS and Spider-man TAS had longer episode arcs and things would play off the events of previous episodes. Another show that did this was Gargoyles. Gargoyles took this further by having a main character get injured and spend a few episodes recovering. Or have a characters get seperated from the main group and several episodes with them trying to get back.

Dragonball's serialization is just having some stuff happen, episode ends, next episodes some stuff happens. When some of that stuff happens is fighting and action, that was great.

I gravitated to DBZ because I was already interested in super powers and video games and stuff. And here's this guy do a shinkuuhadouken from the Marvel vs games.
That explanation of serialization is so broad that it applies to anything.

DB's serialization was different from most because it few of the stories began and ended within the same episode. Even in Gargoyles, their storyarcs would be made up of episodes where the stories began and ended within the same episode like that insufferably long arc where Goliath is trying to get back home.
Not sure what happenes, but I was at work and things got lost. My post was supposed to say that Things happen in DB, and most anime, where the events of the next episodes happen right after the events of the previous episode. Sort of like a soap opera.
Playstation Network ID/Xbox Gamer Tag: AnonymousFriend
Wii FriendCode: 1003 3740 6652 4063

User avatar
Planetnamek
Banned
Posts: 936
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 3:54 pm

Re: Dragon Ball Z’s popularity in the West

Post by Planetnamek » Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:03 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:24 pm I really think those changes are superficial in the grand scheme of things - what drew a lot of fans in wasn't necessarily the more Westernized themes, but how different it was from anything else that was airing in that demographic and the level of violence. I know at least that's what stood out to me, and I was a basic kid with basic kid interests. But you see this series and you instantly know it's of an asian kung-fu variety within 5 seconds of looking at it and you're just sucked in through there.
That's very true, while I was watching the Superman animated series at the time I didn't see much of a parallel between Superman and Goku. For me it was how incredibly intense DBZ was, i'd never seen anything else like it as a kid, it put my saturday morning cartoons to shame.
"Why run away from something you're not afraid of?" - Goku

Post Reply