Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

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MyVisionity
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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:17 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:59 am Dragon Ball did that twice. Once from 23rd Tenkaichi to Raditz and again from Cell to Boo.
And at least with Raditz they had the sense to re-brand the anime as Z, creating a new show. Hokuto no Ken did the same thing with Hokuto no Ken 2.

Even outside of anime you have shows that ended one incarnation and began another, like What's Happening Now!! or Saved By the Bell: The College Years.

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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by ABED » Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:05 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:14 am
ABED wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 5:12 am OTH's timeskip worked because the story threads had concluded. They reached an end.
Well if that's the case then they should have just ended the series.

If they really wanted to come back, then they should have at least re-branded the series like other network tv shows do, or like how anime shows do.
No, they began the adult years. It's the same characters, just at a different point in their lives. It's like a sequel where the predecessor tied up its loose ends, but the story goes in a logical direction from where the previous one ended.

You've created these arbitrary rules in your head.
Sorry to derail this, I used to love OTH up to the sixth season or the seventh, then stopped watching when new characters showed up and must've missed the last two seasons... are they any good? should I bother watching them? does Lucas come back?
If you lost interest when Lucas and Peyton left then no. Lucas comes back for an episode but does nothing substantive. He has a nice few scenes with Haley then leaves. I wouldn't suggest watching the rest of the series if you didn't like the show after Lucas and Peyton left. What show is that good when the main characters leave? However, I would watch the season 9 episode "Danny Boy" as it's pivotal for Dan Scott.

Anyway Dragon Ball Z was for marketing purposes, there was no other reason to change it. And the manga didn't change the title. It's the same story just 5 years later.
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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:38 pm

A sequel is not the original. You can't just skip over chapters of a story and expect audiences not to care. That's massive, especially for a teen drama. They could have at least had the respect to re-brand the show.

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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:46 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:38 pm A sequel is not the original. You can't just skip over chapters of a story and expect audiences not to care.
Again what is Dragon Ball?

And an anime only rebranding does not count

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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:12 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:46 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:38 pm A sequel is not the original. You can't just skip over chapters of a story and expect audiences not to care.
Again what is Dragon Ball?

And an anime only rebranding does not count
Dragon Ball didn't skip over anything. There were no more Dragon Ball hunts, no more supervillains, no more tournaments. The world was at peace before Raditz arrived. It just jumped forwards through time. That's not the same as skipping over plotlines and story.

Anime-only rebrandings do count because anime and manga are two different mediums. Things change when you try and tell a story through television.

A rebranding may appear to be only for marketing purposes on the surface, but really it's a sign of respect for the audience and self-respect and integrity by the show.

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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:25 am

MyVisionity wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:12 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:46 pm
MyVisionity wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 7:38 pm A sequel is not the original. You can't just skip over chapters of a story and expect audiences not to care.
Again what is Dragon Ball?

And an anime only rebranding does not count
Dragon Ball didn't skip over anything. There were no more Dragon Ball hunts, no more supervillains, no more tournaments. The world was at peace before Raditz arrived. It just jumped forwards through time. That's not the same as skipping over plotlines and story.

Anime-only rebrandings do count because anime and manga are two different mediums. Things change when you try and tell a story through television.

A rebranding may appear to be only for marketing purposes on the surface, but really it's a sign of respect for the audience and self-respect and integrity by the show.
This is one of the most vague and unhelpful posts I've ever read here. Why is it a sign of respect and what does the change in mediums have to do with this issue?
A sequel is not the original. You can't just skip over chapters of a story and expect audiences not to care. That's massive, especially for a teen drama. They could have at least had the respect to re-brand the show.
I don't exactly get what you mean. I'm not suggesting anyone skip over the original. Nothing was skipped over during the timeskip.
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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:38 am

MyVisionity wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 10:12 pm

A rebranding may appear to be only for marketing purposes on the surface, but really it's a sign of respect for the audience and self-respect and integrity by the show.
And the Boo arc which was even a bigger gap from the Cell arc than 23rd Tenkaichi to Raditz is…?


I don’t watch One Tree Hill but skipping over the college years sounds no different than Toriyama deciding he wanted to skip 7 years ahead to Gohan’s high school years because he thought a high school comedy manga might be more interesting than a story about a grade school super hero boy.

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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:15 pm

It's a sign of respect because the show is acknowledging that it is no longer the same show that it once was, and is moving forward in a different direction. It's an expression of honesty to the audience, while also being respectful of the show's previous incarnation.


ABED wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:25 am I don't exactly get what you mean. I'm not suggesting anyone skip over the original. Nothing was skipped over during the timeskip.
You said that they skipped over a chunk of their lives by not including the college years. That's an important part of a series to leave out, especially in a teen drama. How can you just jump past parts of people's lives in a story about people's lives? If anything, that's a sequel, not the same show.

Maybe One Tree Hill was unique in the realm of teen dramas, I don't know. If they wanted to take a radical departure from the norms, so be it. It just sounds to me like it just as well may have been the result of poor planning and weak writers, who didn't have enough faith and respect in their own show to move forward.

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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:46 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:15 pm It's a sign of respect because the show is acknowledging that it is no longer the same show that it once was, and is moving forward in a different direction. It's an expression of honesty to the audience, while also being respectful of the show's previous incarnation.
And again the gap between Cell and Boo is………………..?


ABED wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:25 am . That's an important part of a series to leave out, especially in a teen drama. How can you just jump past parts of people's lives in a story about people's lives? If anything, that's a sequel, not the same show.

Maybe One Tree Hill was unique in the realm of teen dramas, I don't know. If they wanted to take a radical departure from the norms, so be it. It just sounds to me like it just as well may have been the result of poor planning and weak writers, who didn't have enough faith and respect in their own show to move forward.
Most teen dramas I can think of either grabbed a new cast after the old cast graduated, had the main character (s) drop out of college or hoped nobody noticed the main cast has been in high school for 7 years.

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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by ABED » Wed Jul 21, 2021 8:16 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:15 pm It's a sign of respect because the show is acknowledging that it is no longer the same show that it once was, and is moving forward in a different direction. It's an expression of honesty to the audience, while also being respectful of the show's previous incarnation.


ABED wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:25 am I don't exactly get what you mean. I'm not suggesting anyone skip over the original. Nothing was skipped over during the timeskip.
You said that they skipped over a chunk of their lives by not including the college years. That's an important part of a series to leave out, especially in a teen drama. How can you just jump past parts of people's lives in a story about people's lives? If anything, that's a sequel, not the same show.

Maybe One Tree Hill was unique in the realm of teen dramas, I don't know. If they wanted to take a radical departure from the norms, so be it. It just sounds to me like it just as well may have been the result of poor planning and weak writers, who didn't have enough faith and respect in their own show to move forward.
It's the same show just at a different point. There's no dishonesty in keeping the same title. One could EASILY argue that it's a sign of respect to not change the title because having the same characters in the same world but with a shiny new title is little more than a paint job.

They skipped over a period in their lives where very little happened. The important parts where filled in. Nothing was left out. This wasn't a result of poor planning. They had spend four seasons in high school and got all the story they could out of it. They wanted to skip ahead to the adult years because why spend several seasons doing more stories set in a school? It's redundant, but there was still more stories to tell since it's a coming of age story and you don't stop coming of age just because you graduate. There were still lessons to learn and goals to achieve. Besides, they told most of the stories you would tell during ones college years during the high school years. Besides, the school wasn't the setting, the town was. It's not like Degrassi. OTH didn't stop being the show when they graduated. And DB didn't stop being DB because Goku turned 18 and won a tournament.

It's a sequel, not something fundamentally different, it's not unique either. All the show did, just like DB did was skip ahead to when the characters got back together. It's like when DB skips ahead. Instead of showing us a lot of their training or the like the story skips ahead. And some stories can only sensibly be told after a time skip. Set aside aging up characters, Sometimes stories require the passage of time to tell them properly. At the end of the Cell arc, Gohan took the role of Earth's protector, but when we meet him in the Buu arc, he's strong but he's not as sharp as he once was. He's let peace lull him into a sense of calm and complacency. How do you tell that story without jumping ahead?

I'll say it again, your rules are arbitrary. Why the hell does the medium make any difference for the decision to rebrand?

I think we've lost the forest from the trees. Like anything even good plot devices can be abused, but there's nothing inherently wrong with any of them be they timeskips or big quick power ups.
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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by MyVisionity » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:46 pm

You can go from Cell to Boo and jump ahead seven years because Dragon Ball is a fantasy tale.

One Tree Hill is a teen drama that is supposed to have at least *some* semblance of reality. You can't just jump ahead four years through time. That's not how time works.

Dragon Ball is also a manga series. You can do things like timeskips without contradicting the nature of the medium.

One Tree Hill was a network television series. There are certain standards and expectations that exist when you do a show like that. The season ends, the characters and audience go off on summer break. The season begins, and it's Fall again. That's how it typically goes for these kinds of teen dramas.

Maybe One Tree Hill was just an unconventional series, out to defy standards and challenge television norms. Fair enough. But don't do a timeskip like that and pretend to just be a good old fashioned teen drama on the WB. Personally, I would lose my shit if a show I watched ever pulled a stunt like that.

That's why branding is so important. It sends a message to the audience. In the case of OTH, you keep the same title and tell them that "yeah, the story continues... we're a little bit different and experimental, that's all". Or you change the title and say "hey, relax... we're starting a whole new show here... you didn't miss anything, we ain't actually talentless hacks..."

Yes some stories do require the passage of time to tell them properly. However, you are still bound by the medium in which you tell them. Toriyama can write a story like the Boo arc and not have to worry about certain standards and conventions, because it's a manga. The writers of teen dramas on network television ain't so lucky. Their hands are tied when it comes to just what kinds of stories they want to tell and how they tell them.

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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by JulieYBM » Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:57 pm

You can jump ahead in time whenever you want. It's fiction. You can do whatever you want. Timeskips don't just belong to shounen comics.
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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by MasenkoHA » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:27 am

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:46 pm You can go from Cell to Boo and jump ahead seven years because Dragon Ball is a fantasy tale.

One Tree Hill is a teen drama that is supposed to have at least *some* semblance of reality. You can't just jump ahead four years through time. That's not how time works.
Lmfao. What a completely arbitrary rule to have. There’s nothing about fantasy series that gives them special treatment when it comes to time skips.

Guess what Dragon Ball and One Tree Hill have in common? They’re both narrative fiction. Time skips aren’t some magical fantastical concept. They’re just saying “Hey nothing terribly interesting happens to these characters during those intervening years” for Dragon Ball Toriyama wanted to skip ahead to Goku’s offspring being of walking and talking in complete sentences age and then later wanted his poised to be the new lead character to be in high school. For One Tree Hill (Abed or anyone who actually watches the show can correct me if I’m wrong) it sounds like the show runners thought there was nothing they can really do with them in college that they didn’t do in high school so just jumped ahead to the cast as young adults and presumably closer to their actors real life ages.


.
One Tree Hill was a network television series. There are certain standards and expectations that exist when you do a show like that. The season ends, the characters and audience go off on summer break. The season begins, and it's Fall again. That's how it typically goes for these kinds of teen dramas.
There’s plenty of manga and anime that’s based around the Japanese school year so again “manga doesn’t have to follow this rule I just made up” doesn’t mean anything.

You’re not watching a documentary that tracks every second of these characters lives right down to them taking a dump.
Yes some stories do require the passage of time to tell them properly. However, you are still bound by the medium in which you tell them
They’re really not. No medium owns the concept of time skips.

. Toriyama can write a story like the Boo arc and not have to worry about certain standards and conventions, because it's a manga.
Toriyama can have a talking cartoon pig hang around the cast because manga. Because manga is not an explanation for why they own the concept of time skips.

The writers of teen dramas on network television ain't so lucky. Their hands are tied when it comes to just what kinds of stories they want to tell and how they tell them.
In some way sure. But time skips sure as hell aren’t one of them.

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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by JulieYBM » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:35 am

Riverdale Season 5 did a seven year time skip, if I recall the word around town.
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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by ABED » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:27 am

Those have to be the most utterly arbitrary rules about storytelling I've ever read here. Unless a story is in real time, the story contains timeskips, even if they're tiny. No one expects time to move "realistically" regardless of genre.

Let's just get this straight, there are no hard and fast rules in fiction. The reason rules and conventions, etc. arise is because writers have found that certain elements, narrative techniques, tropes, etc. are able to elicit the response from the audience they desire. The goal of fiction is ultimately that - to get the audience to react emotionally the way the author wants.

For the near death power ups,, is it somehow good writing if the math worked out? Aren't those numbers Toriyama gave us completely arbitrary?
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Re: Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

Post by jjgp1112 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:07 am

And hell, if you go the other way around - That 70s Show was stuck in 1978 for three real-time years (including multiple holiday specials and summer vacations!). Time is hardly some rigid principle in live action television.
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