Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

[BWri]

All I hear is excuses. Anything can be excused with this show. But just because you have an excuse doesn't mean it's okay. or good writing.

Not excuses you just don’t like you’re wrong *shrug*
They’re not deus ex machina and that term gets misused as bad as Mary Sue to just be shorthand for “I don’t like this”
There’s plenty of sloppy writing in Dragon Ball but zenkai boost aren’t one of them

I'm with FoolsGil on this one. Zenkais are indeed Deus Ex Machina and sloppy writing. The Deus Ex Machina part comes in the fact that its a miraculous tool that makes the characters as strong as the writer needs them to be without any particular rhyme or reason - "an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel."

To your point MasenkoHA, we know they exist ever since Vegeta explains them, but what each character gets from them is wildly inconsistent and completely up to the whims of Toriyama-san who immediately abuses it. It's inconsistent right from the start. Vegeta himself barely gets any increase after he leaves Earth, but after fighting the Ginyu's he gets a x16 boost to match Frieza's 1st form? Then Goku himself gets something of a 33x boost in a single Zenkai. The "unexpected" part of the definition applies to the sheer volume of power granted from this mechanic since it only exists to solve current problems (i.e. surviving and making it to the next stage of Freeza's boss fight). And if we retroactively apply this to the story, no previous zenkais have been even 10% of what we see on Namek. Every application of it on Namek is indeed unexpected and useful to keep the user alive in a hopeless situation, mostly vs Freeza whose power they are trying to hopelessly overcome.

On top of that, Zenkais were a mechanic created on Namek that for the most part stays on Namek. It's clearly an means to a very obvious end.

I don’t think they were ditched as much as it was understood that it could only get you so far. Goku got a lot further from actually training rather than depending on these boost like Vegeta had. That’s why it’s funny to me fans are acting like it was some huge cheat code to the story.

They really are a cheat code though, especially on Namek. They're a cheat code for Goku and Vegeta and they are a cheat code for Toriyama Akira. It's just a convenient means to an end, same with Namekian Fusion and the Guru powerup at the time. I just find Zenkais way worse became of just how much they were spammed on Namek, how poorly they were explained combined with how inconsistent they were, and how quickly their relevance disappeared from the story without so much as an explanation only to resurface again for a massive story beat, again, when convenient to do so ... then again decades later, when convenient.

[BWri]

We can argue whether they were overused, but that's a different argument. Whether they are deus ex machina is a whole other thing.

They still fit the definition, in terms of how they're implemented.

[ABED]

We can argue whether they were overused, but that's a different argument. Whether they are deus ex machina is a whole other thing.

They still fit the definition, in terms of how they're implemented.

No they don't. They don't resolve unsolvable problems and they are set up in a way that's consistent with what's already been established.

Consistency isn't important to whether they are well done or not. This is storytelling, NOT an RPG! Few things bother me more about people's lack of understanding about storytelling than this simple fact. Plot devices don't need to be consistent, even characters' actions don't need to be consistent as people are emotional creatures, and not fully logical. Stop turning it into math. And they weren't convenient. The characters have to experience near death.

And how did they solve a problem? Goku and Vegeta get their asses handed to them constantly in spite of them. Hell, Super Saiyan is more of a deus ex machina.

[90sDBZ]

To be fair, though, the criteria was always "near death." Vegeta's big boosts in the Frieza saga came from a battle that he literally needed life support on the way back from, getting piledriven into the ground and almost drowning, and then getting a hole blasted through his stomach.

Comparatively, his beatings in the Android saga are pretty small-time. Embarrassing and debilitating, but his life was never in danger - hell, the Androids were specifically *not* trying to kill him! You could argue with Cell, but he got KO'd in two hits, really.

17 told Krillin they would die if he didn't give them a senzu. Against Cell it's less clear.

I don’t think they were ditched as much as it was understood that it could only get you so far. Goku got a lot further from actually training rather than depending on these boost like Vegeta had. That’s why it’s funny to me fans are acting like it was some huge cheat code to the story.

With Goku it was a combination of training and abusing Zenkais. After the gravity malfunction incident he became strong enough to handle 100x gravity, then nearly died again by shooting a kamehameha at himself, which made him even stronger so he could train even harder still. Then he got another Zenkai after recovering from the Ginyu battle.

[WittyUsername]

The power-ups are just a convenient way of making the characters stronger in a short amount of time. They’re not even very consistent. Goku receives a zenkai power-up that causes his PL to skyrocket from 90,000 to three million. Meanwhile, Vegeta receives one after Kuririn blasts a hole through his chest, but he’s not even able to lay a finger on Freeza, whose PL is also three million at the time.

[ABED]

I get the appeal behind power levels, but storytelling isn't math. And in universe, I don't recall them ever saying what Goku's battle power was after recovering. Do you all feel the same way about The Grand Elder's power up?

[MyVisionity]

Storytelling is math. Not everything is about emotions. Logic is also important to crafting and understanding a story. It depends upon what kind of story it is how much of one aspect factors in over another.

One way in which storytelling is math is in the case of the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, where we are constantly given numbers and multipliers. Naturally, logic and mathematics become a part of the story at that point. Just how important it is to the story is another question.

[ABED]

Storytelling is math. Not everything is about emotions. Logic is also important to crafting and understanding a story. It depends upon what kind of story it is how much of one aspect factors in over another.

One way in which storytelling is math is in the case of the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, where we are constantly given numbers and multipliers. Naturally, logic and mathematics become a part of the story at that point. Just how important it is to the story is another question.

It's not math. Stories aren't about objectivity. If there's a logic that needs to be understood, it's the emotional logic, not the math of made up numbers.

And your example is a poor one as the battle powers we are given in those stories are quickly subverted. The entire point isn't to give some fictional number, it's to show that Goku's opponents aren't as refined in the mystical aspects of ki control. It's how Goku and Piccolo are in part able to defeat Raditz. He underestimates them because he relies FAR too much on those numbers.

[BWri]

We can argue whether they were overused, but that's a different argument. Whether they are deus ex machina is a whole other thing.

They still fit the definition, in terms of how they're implemented.

No they don't. They don't resolve unsolvable problems and they are set up in a way that's consistent with what's already been established.

It's not consistent at all. The unsolvable problem is Frieza's strength at the various levels he's fighting at which is so far removed from theirs that they have no logical recourse. The solution is more power, the likes of which would take decades for even Vegeta to accumulate (our thinking at the time). The solution is so hopeless because it requires an instantaneous power jump at levels we have yet to see in the series -- and thus zenkai enter the scene which turns a hopeless situation into a winnable one. Rinse, wash and repeat for each of Frieza's forms.

Consistency isn't important to whether they are well done or not.

It is when defining what constitutes as a deus ex machina. If something works one way then suddenly works another way exactly when the hero needs it, that is also deus ex machina. Consistency is more important than you give it credit for.

This is storytelling, NOT an RPG! Few things bother me more about people's lack of understanding about storytelling than this simple fact. Plot devices don't need to be consistent, even characters' actions don't need to be consistent as people are emotional creatures, and not fully logical. Stop turning it into math. And they weren't convenient. The characters have to experience near death.

Huh? No one is talking about math or videogames. This whole discussion is about a plot device and if it is good or bad. Zenkais on Namek are a cheap plot device that allows the ping ponging of the power heirarchy. It just so happens that the weird video game like rules Toriyama placed on this plot device (can't self harm to get your buff, you gotta get hit by the opposing team and go down to 1 HP) demand you scrutinize it to make sense of it. If anyone is to be accused of turning something into a videogame or math, it's the creator himself who created the power rating system based on numbers and multiplication. We're only playing with the rules he established, which heavily dictated the flow of his story at the time.

And they weren't convenient. The characters have to experience near death.

Yeah, but when you have a plethora of healing mcguffins lying around: healing tanks, magic beans, and a white mage then zenkais suddenly become super convenient. Just ask Vegeta about that.

And how did they solve a problem? Goku and Vegeta get their asses handed to them constantly in spite of them.

The problem was surviving each of Frieza's suppressions which the zenkais allowed them to do. Also with Vegeta earlier, it allowed him to overcome the remaining Ginyus which was impossible for him before.

Hell, Super Saiyan is more of a deus ex machina.

Yes, but it is preceeded by several lesser deus ex machinas called zenkai.

[MasenkoHA]

And again the zenkais ONLY help against fodder villains aka Zarbon and Jheese. How are they a deus ex machina when Vegeta still loses to the actual bad bad?The story subverts the very thing the fandom is pretending got played straight.

This is what happens when fans try to turn the narrative into a video game or trading game where all these characters have imaginary stats. “Waaah your Goku was at a level 8 how did you get him to level 93?”

[WittyUsername]

I get the appeal behind power levels, but storytelling isn't math. And in universe, I don't recall them ever saying what Goku's battle power was after recovering. Do you all feel the same way about The Grand Elder's power up?

I dislike power levels, but the Daizenshuu states that Goku’s power level is three million after exiting the medical machine, which conveniently happens to be the same PL as Freeza before he starts using 50% of his power.

[MasenkoHA]

I get the appeal behind power levels, but storytelling isn't math. And in universe, I don't recall them ever saying what Goku's battle power was after recovering. Do you all feel the same way about The Grand Elder's power up?

I dislike power levels, but the Daizenshuu states that Goku’s power level is three million after exiting the medical machine, which conveniently happens to be the same PL as Freeza before he starts using 50% of his power.

Guidebooks tend to be full of crap. Didn’t one of them try to state Pilaf had a power level of 40 when Goku’s was 10 at the first arc?

I wouldn’t use supplementary material as proof of anything.

[WittyUsername]

I get the appeal behind power levels, but storytelling isn't math. And in universe, I don't recall them ever saying what Goku's battle power was after recovering. Do you all feel the same way about The Grand Elder's power up?

I dislike power levels, but the Daizenshuu states that Goku’s power level is three million after exiting the medical machine, which conveniently happens to be the same PL as Freeza before he starts using 50% of his power.

Guidebooks tend to be full of crap. Didn’t one of them try to state Pilaf had a power level of 40 when Goku’s was 10 at the first arc?

I wouldn’t use supplementary material as proof of anything.

Well, regardless, when Goku fought the Ginyu Force, Ginyu himself was able to give him a hard time, but after his zenkai boost, he’s suddenly stronger than Piccolo, who was able to go toe to toe with Freeza in his second form, and that’s without using the Kaioken.

[MasenkoHA]

I dislike power levels, but the Daizenshuu states that Goku’s power level is three million after exiting the medical machine, which conveniently happens to be the same PL as Freeza before he starts using 50% of his power.

Guidebooks tend to be full of crap. Didn’t one of them try to state Pilaf had a power level of 40 when Goku’s was 10 at the first arc?

I wouldn’t use supplementary material as proof of anything.

Well, regardless, when Goku fought the Ginyu Force, Ginyu himself was able to give him a hard time, but after his zenkai boost, he’s suddenly stronger than Piccolo, who was able to go toe to toe with Freeza in his second form, and that’s without using the Kaioken.

He wasn’t though. It was shown Goku was holding back a lot and he was still coming up on top. Ginyu was not giving him a hard time.

[Cursed Lemon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but pretty much the only time a zenkai boost actually, palpably mattered was when Vegeta came back to whoop Zarbon's ass. I guess you can say Goku probably needed his post-Ginyu zenkai to put him within striking distance of super saiyan but that's preeeeeetty loose.

So frankly, what could have been an annoying, cheap plot device actually ended up as a big ol' nothingburger.

[WittyUsername]

Guidebooks tend to be full of crap. Didn’t one of them try to state Pilaf had a power level of 40 when Goku’s was 10 at the first arc?

I wouldn’t use supplementary material as proof of anything.

Well, regardless, when Goku fought the Ginyu Force, Ginyu himself was able to give him a hard time, but after his zenkai boost, he’s suddenly stronger than Piccolo, who was able to go toe to toe with Freeza in his second form, and that’s without using the Kaioken.

He wasn’t though. It was shown Goku was holding back a lot and he was still coming up on top. Ginyu was not giving him a hard time.

I know Goku easily could’ve beaten Ginyu, hence why he swapped bodies with him, but it’s worth noting Goku with the Kaioken is stated to have a power level of 180,000 during that fight, which is only about a third as strong as Freeza in his weakest form. Meanwhile, Freeza in his second form (or his second to last form, technically?) is stated within the series to have a power level of over a million. By the time, Goku gets his zenkai boost, we can assume he’s become stronger than that without even using the Kaioken, so even if we disregard the guidebooks, his power apparently took a massive leap.

For the record, this is largely why I hate power levels. They turn everything into a numbers game.

[MasenkoHA]

For the record, this is largely why I hate power levels. They turn everything into a numbers game.

Yeah, I’m not a fan, which is why I’m glad the story mostly ditches them after the Captain Ginyu fight.

It is a bit ironic though that fans have done the exact same thing the story mocked the villains for doing…trying to turn power into a numbers game.

Hell, Super Saiyan is more of a deus ex machina.

Super Saiyan Blue definitely was.


“Hey that power up that required a whole ass ritual? I tapped into that power and went further than that without even needing a ritual also Vegeta can do it too despite never reaching Super Saiyan God before…which again required a ritual to do the first time”

[Grimlock]

“Hey that power up that required a whole ass ritual? I tapped into that power and went further than that without even needing a ritual

Wait... Were you expecting another ritual to get Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan?

also Vegeta can do it too despite never reaching Super Saiyan God before…”

What's this statement, though?

[ABED]

Freeza doesn't transform because he has to. At no point in any of his forms was he in any threat of losing. He does it out of hubris and for shock. Vegeta provokes hiim to transform the first time by taunting him. Freeza abides to show Vegeta how out of his depth he truly is. Freeza transforms again after facing Piccolo and while an argument could be made that he was on equal footing, I don't think that's true. Gohan being able to challenge his third form even a little pissed him off enough to show his final form, but at that point, he wasn't in any danger of losing. The biggest reason our heroes get as far as they did against Freeza is because of his hubris. The near death power ups are just there to add some drama. It ultimately gets them nowhere.

And for the record, I don't think Super Saiyan is a deus ex machina. Freeza has constantly talked about it and feared it. In a delicious turn of events, he creates the thing he feared the most.

when you have a plethora of healing mcguffins

That's not what a mcGuffin is. A McGuffin is a plot device that the characters are going after which gets the plot rolling, but ultimately not what the core of the story is about.

Huh? No one is talking about math or videogames. This whole discussion is about a plot device and if it is good or bad. Zenkais on Namek are a cheap plot device that allows the ping ponging of the power heirarchy. It just so happens that the weird video game like rules Toriyama placed on this plot device (can't self harm to get your buff, you gotta get hit by the opposing team and go down to 1 HP) demand you scrutinize it to make sense of it. If anyone is to be accused of turning something into a videogame or math, it's the creator himself who created the power rating system based on numbers and multiplication. We're only playing with the rules he established, which heavily dictated the flow of his story at the time.

Way to miss the point. I'm saying is good storytelling isn't about math or the pure logical consistency of a game. Consistency isn't necessary for a plot device to be good. Toriyama never created video game rules for these power ups. The numbers are unreliable and inconsistent from the jump.

[MasenkoHA]

Wait... Were you expecting another ritual to get Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan?

What? That’s not the point. The point is you can’t make it so a form requires a ritual to gain those powers and then the two leads, one of which has never used the God powers before, gains another form to surpass it that doesn’t require a ritual. That makes no sense. It just shows how short sighted Toriyama was that he made a big deal out of Super Saiyan God needing a ritual and then had it so a higher form of that doesn’t even require it.

And it’s not like it needed to be stronger. We know Freeza is way weaker than Beerus and Whis. They very easily could have made Super Saiyan Blue a pseudo God mode i.e weaker than Super Saiyan God but less complicated to obtain that they don’t need to depend on other Saiyans power.

What's this statement, though?

Yes, Goku said next time they need to access Super Saiyan God they’ll do the ritual for Vegeta…and they never do because both and he Vegeta access “The Super Saiyan mode of Super Saiyan God” without it because….reasons?

Freeza transforms again after facing Piccolo and while an argument could be made that he was on equal footing, I don't think that's true

They seem close in power but honestly it looked like Freeza’s second form still had the upper hand. The next transformation just widened the gap.