Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

[super michael]

Just curious what does everything think about zenkai? Do you believe they are good or bad?

In my opinion I think it is good, since to get a zenkai, that would require the Saiyan to be near death making that powerup very risky. Goku with his intensive training almost got him killed by accident if it wasn't for the senzu bean healing him.

Then there Vegeta almost dying a couple times that almost got him killed like Zarbon, Reccoom and Krillin. There is Goku zenkai from Captain Ginyu and Gohan zenkai.

Overall it makes it interesting to see if they survive and if they survive how strong do they get.

I wonder if a dead Saiyan like Goku in the Buu if he could get zenkai, if he was close to dying. We know when someone dead dies, they cease to exist.

[Koitsukai]

It's good if you are a saiyan, it's bad if you are an enemy of the saiyans.

And by the Buu arc, zenkais weren't effective anymore. To be fair, by the Cell arc, actually. To surpass the androids, they never take them into account, spending a year in the ROSAT seems overkill if zenkais could get the job done faster.

Toriyama either forgot about them or decided to make the zenkai gains irrelevant.

[Polyphase Avatron]

It's good if you are a saiyan, it's bad if you are an enemy of the saiyans.

And by the Buu arc, zenkais weren't effective anymore. To be fair, by the Cell arc, actually. To surpass the androids, they never take them into account, spending a year in the ROSAT seems overkill if zenkais could get the job done faster.

Toriyama either forgot about them or decided to make the zenkai gains irrelevant.

Although Cell himself got one after he blew himself up.

[Koitsukai]

It's good if you are a saiyan, it's bad if you are an enemy of the saiyans.

And by the Buu arc, zenkais weren't effective anymore. To be fair, by the Cell arc, actually. To surpass the androids, they never take them into account, spending a year in the ROSAT seems overkill if zenkais could get the job done faster.

Toriyama either forgot about them or decided to make the zenkai gains irrelevant.

Although Cell himself got one after he blew himself up.

Right, then the gains for the saiyans were just negligible.

[lancerman]

It's good at that exact point in the story because it accomplishes two things.

1. It allows the villains to be insanely powerful but give the protagonists a way to catch up quickly at a large cost. It works when you are literally expanding the world into alien threats and the most powerful rogues in the universe.

2. The explanation also fits pretty seamlessly with a tendency Goku had to take a massive beating and then comeback and dominate. Sure there are in story explanations for those instances (he trained with Karin before fighting Tao Pai Pai again, he finally ate when he fought Tamborine the second time, he drank the water after losing to Piccolo, etc) but the fact of Goku having that alien power boost aids the patterns we've seen. So it works narratively.

[BWri]

In retrospect it's a neat mechanic and gives Saiyans something cool and unique that synergizes well with their battle-centric natures. In my own idea for a DB reboot the zenkais are still a big part of it, but they are nerfed, giving a minor advantage to the Saiyans but not even close to what was seen in the main series.

As far as how they were used in the series, it's actually fine if you cut out how ridiculous they were in the Namek/Frieza arcs. If zenkais worked like they worked there for the whole series, Saiyans wouldn't even need transformations. They're a non-factor for most of the series, which isn't consistent but with Saiyans having so many other options, its not a big deal.

In some cases zenkais were confusing. Like it wasn't exactly clear where Gohan's massive power jumps were coming from in the Frieza arc. Was it the potential unlock, the zenkais, or both. Logically its both, but Goku and Vegeta's zenkai boosted power jumps dwarf Gohan's

My favorite uses of the zenkai is probably Goku Black since he warps it to suit his own twisted ends and Bardock, since his growth was dramatic but not Namek crazy. I also like how Vegeta decides to abuse it but the idea is seemingly let go after that. I also like the idea that it's been there this whole time (like what most in the power scaling community believes) and that it has diminishing returns (what Super introduced).

There was a time that I hated it though. And I still think it's kind of funny that if Krillin was a Saiyan that he'd be pretty OP on zenkais alone.

[MasenkoHA]

I think fans just neglect that the zenkai boost (aside for being an easy shortcut for Toriyama) also highlight the difference between Goku and Vegeta.


Vegeta, who was raised as a Saiyan and believes in his own superiority as a Saiyan elite relied exclusively on zenkai boost to plow through Freeza’s men. To the point of telling Krillin to wound him in hopes that the boost would be enough to make him stronger than Freeza in his true form…and it doesn’t do shit.

Goku, by contrast, wasn’t raised as a Saiyan. He didn’t even know he got power ups from near death. So while it may have helped him in the past it was always Goku’s training (well and magic god water that one time) that got Goku further along in his gains. When they fought on earth Vegeta was the stronger of the two but despite getting two zenkai boost since then compared to Goku’s one Goku is leaps and bounds stronger than him when he arrives on Namek because of the intense training he did on the way there rather than rely on a genetic advantage like Vegeta had been.

And while it is Goku’s Saiyan biology that ultimately nets him a win against Freeza (turning Super Saiyan) he doesn’t get this magic transformation because of his birthright, as Vegeta assumed would happen to him but because of his ties to being raised on earth i.e watching his best friend get murdered in cold blood right in front of him and hearing his son’s life threatened.


And it’s part of Vegeta’s growth that after that he no longer relies on zenkai boost and instead takes a page from Goku’s playbook and starts doing intense training regimen.

[JulieYBM]

I would probably not have included them. I think giving Saiyans a sort of genetic advantage like that creates too many limitations with what one can do with other characters. I think simply using an explanation of one's spirit becoming sharper is a better explanation for an increase in strength. This way personalities like Yamcha, Kuririn, Chaozu amd Tenshinhan can not fall behind.

[FoolsGil]

No they aren't good, and I have two reasons, and neither is the fact that zenkai users become more valuable pieces and get more opportunities to fight compared to non zenkai users.

1) Even if the zenkai wasn't horribly abused, it would still be used as a last ditch effort to deus ex machina the arc villain, instead of learning something that will actually defeat them.

2) The zenkai was horribly abused. Because Toriyama chose to shoot his shot to make Freeza the strongest being in the universe, and then gave him three more forms. What followed was a the repeat step process of get horribly injured, receive healing, gain power, until both Goku and Vegeta could step up to Freeza's 4th Form, though Super Saiyan was needed to finally defeat him.

Stuff like this is why the series in such a rut. It's lazy writing hidden in a lot of fight scenes.

[MasenkoHA]

1) Even if the zenkai wasn't horribly abused, it would still be used as a last ditch effort to deus ex machina the arc villain, instead of learning something that will actually defeat them.

Except that never happened…ever. It really was only ever used as a crutch to get Vegeta through Freeza’s warriors. And it serves as his downfall. He gets such a swell head from overpowering warriors that were stronger than him he expects the same to happen against Freeza and Freeza promptly humiliates him. After the namek arc it’s not even relevant. Vegeta no longer depends on it or even references it.

2) The zenkai was horribly abused. Because Toriyama chose to shoot his shot to make Freeza the strongest being in the universe, and then gave him three more forms. What followed was a the repeat step process of get horribly injured, receive healing, gain power, until both Goku and Vegeta could step up to Freeza's 4th Form, though Super Saiyan was needed to finally defeat him.

Yeah but that’s not what happened. Vegeta’s series of zenkai boost doesn’t allow him to stand toe to toe with Freeza’s final form. He gets his ass handed to him.

Goku gets horribly injured all of once on Namek and if anything the intense 100x gravity training did more for Goku than the zenkai boost. He’s leaps and bounds stronger than Vegeta despite Vegeta getting more zenkai boost since their fight on earth.

[FoolsGil]

1) Even if the zenkai wasn't horribly abused, it would still be used as a last ditch effort to deus ex machina the arc villain, instead of learning something that will actually defeat them.

Except that never happened…ever. It really was only ever used as a crutch to get Vegeta through Freeza’s warriors. And it serves as his downfall. He gets such a swell head from overpowering warriors that were stronger than him he expects the same to happen against Freeza and Freeza promptly humiliates him. After the namek arc it’s not even relevant. Vegeta no longer depends on it or even references it.

2) The zenkai was horribly abused. Because Toriyama chose to shoot his shot to make Freeza the strongest being in the universe, and then gave him three more forms. What followed was a the repeat step process of get horribly injured, receive healing, gain power, until both Goku and Vegeta could step up to Freeza's 4th Form, though Super Saiyan was needed to finally defeat him.

Yeah but that’s not what happened. Vegeta’s series of zenkai boost doesn’t allow him to stand toe to toe with Freeza’s final form. He gets his ass handed to him.

Goku gets horribly injured all of once on Namek and if anything the intense 100x gravity training did more for Goku than the zenkai boost. He’s leaps and bounds stronger than Vegeta despite Vegeta getting more zenkai boost since their fight on earth.

It's exactly what happened, you dolling it up with different words like "using it as a crutch" and excuses doesn't change a thing. and "step up to" doesn't mean "stand toe to toe." Vegeta was in the ballpark. You're right on Goku though. He's a better example of deus ex machina since he went from Stronger than Captain Ginyu to "standing toe to toe with Freeza in one zenkai.

[ABED]

Goku DIDN'T stand toe to toe with Freeza. He did better than Vegeta, but Freeza was still holding back a lot.

And deus ex machina means something not set up by the story in order to resolve it How does this qualify? It didn't resolve the story and had been set up previously.

[MasenkoHA]

Vegeta was in the ballpark

He was getting his ass handed to him by Freeza in his final form. How is that in the ballpark?

. You're right on Goku though. He's a better example of deus ex machina since he went from Stronger than Captain Ginyu to "standing toe to toe with Freeza in one zenkai.

1. We don’t know how much stronger Goku was than Captain Ginyu when he arrived on Namek so no.

2. As Abed said a deus ex machina has to come out of nowhere to resolve the story. The Super God Water would be a deus ex machina because it amounts to Karin saying “Actually I do have magic water that will increase your power” Goku drinks it and becomes stronger than Piccolo Daimao. Even if the zenkai boost was enough to make Goku stronger than Freeza (Hint: It wasn’t) it still wouldn’t be a deus ex machina because Toriyama had already established that Saiyans get stronger after near death from combat. And again it becomes a subversion. Vegeta overly relies on it and it ultimately does him no good. After that he never depends on it again.

And finally Goku’s injury and recovery on Namek wasn’t so he could get a giant zenkai boost it was because he needed to be kept out of the action in order for Freeza’s 2nd and 3rd form to seem intimidating to others while Goku is still able to fight against final form Freeza.

[FoolsGil]

Vegeta was in the ballpark

He was getting his ass handed to him by Freeza in his final form. How is that in the ballpark?

We didn't see Vegeta and Third Form fight, but I think we can safely assume that last zenkai would have made Vegeta stronger than Freeza, he'd have been forced to transform, if they faced off. That means to me, Vegeta would have reached that fourth form, even if he couldn't fight it.

. You're right on Goku though. He's a better example of deus ex machina since he went from Stronger than Captain Ginyu to "standing toe to toe with Freeza in one zenkai.

1. We don’t know how much stronger Goku was than Captain Ginyu when he arrived on Namek so no.

2. As Abed said a deus ex machina has to come out of nowhere to resolve the story. The Super God Water would be a deus ex machina because it amounts to Karin saying “Actually I do have magic water that will increase your power” Goku drinks it and becomes stronger than Piccolo Daimao. Even if the zenkai boost was enough to make Goku stronger than Freeza (Hint: It wasn’t) it still wouldn’t be a deus ex machina because Toriyama had already established that Saiyans get stronger after near death from combat. And again it becomes a subversion. Vegeta overly relies on it and it ultimately does him no good. After that he never depends on it again.

And finally Goku’s injury and recovery on Namek wasn’t so he could get a giant zenkai boost it was because he needed to be kept out of the action in order for Freeza’s 2nd and 3rd form to seem intimidating to others while Goku is still able to fight against final form Freeza.

1) That only helps my case further. Apparently Goku going 180,000 was Kaioken x2? So fine lets say he had access to Kaioken x20 before the zenkai. So Goku's full power would have been 1,800,000. That definitely puts him in 3rd Form's Ballpark...but because he got horribly injured, he went from 3rd form Freeza to matching Freeza's 4th form up to 50%...That helps my case further, the ridiculous gains in power

2) This alien superiority BS is deus ex machina. You think Cui, Dodoria, and Zarbon weren't problems that Toriyama needed to get rid of as quickly as possible?! He stacked the game against the heroes favor so badly:

-Freeza already had most of the dragonballs
He brought his main force which had soldiers as strong as Vegeta
-Dodoria and Zarbon were stronger than Vegeta
-Freeza himself was the strongest being in the universe
-Goku was still on Earth
-Toriyama didn't think that maybe Krillin and Gohan could get a pit stop somewhere that could lead to them getting something that might give them an edge.

Everything was going to end badly if Toriyama didn't find a way to resolve the situation he created as quickly as possible, because Krillin playing 3D chess against Freeza was fun to watch, but he's playing with Pawns and Freeza is playing with Queens; so Boom Zenkai. Have Vegeta then run a swath of blood through Namek, buying time for Goku. And sure it didn't resolve everything, but writers do not have to follow the confines of a trope to the letter. He used zenkai ex machina until it wasn't necessary. Until he needed a different deus ex machina, but that's not what we're talking about.

And here's one, if it wasn't some crap he pulled out of nowhere, why the hell was Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta so weak? They had access to the most advanced medical care in the universe, they're not going to mortally wound each other and throw themselves into the healing pods to make gains? No, because Toriyama needed to resolve the problems he made for himself then and there, instead of actually putting the time and work into planning the abilities Saiyans' have.

[ABED]

This alien superiority BS is deus ex machina

How is that a deus ex machina? A DEM is a contrivance of the plot in order to get the characters out of a seemingly hopeless situation.

These boosts work for the story and speak to how the Saiyans are made for battle.

They had access to the most advanced medical care in the universe, they're not going to mortally wound each other and throw themselves into the healing pods to make gains?

Assuming they could get to them in time and not accidentally kill each other.

And sure it didn't resolve everything, but writers do not have to follow the confines of a trope to the letter.

They have to in essence.The trope doesn't fit either of the criteria to be considered a DEM.

[FoolsGil]

This alien superiority BS is deus ex machina

How is that a deus ex machina? A DEM is a contrivance of the plot in order to get the characters out of a seemingly hopeless situation.

These boosts work for the story and speak to how the Saiyans are made for battle.

They had access to the most advanced medical care in the universe, they're not going to mortally wound each other and throw themselves into the healing pods to make gains?

Assuming they could get to them in time and not accidentally kill each other.

And sure it didn't resolve everything, but writers do not have to follow the confines of a trope to the letter.

They have to in essence.The trope doesn't fit either of the criteria to be considered a DEM.

All I hear is excuses. Anything can be excused with this show. But just because you have an excuse doesn't mean it's okay. or good writing.

[90sDBZ]

I think they're good, although they do get ditched in the Android saga and then conveniently brought back when Cell blows himself up.

One of my favourite instances of it is the gravity room malfunction filler episode, which had Goku hanging upside down helplessly for an entire episode. It's a real dramatic scene with the lighting, and how we see bolts of lightening outside the ship. Goku has to endure the terrible gravity storm in a very uncomfortable and vulnerable position. I can't imagine how frightening and claustrophobic that would feel.

It's literally a case of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger", and the fact that he gets much stronger from it feels earned, unlike a lot of the cheap powerups in Super. I love how right after he recovers with a Senzu bean he goes about training in 100x gravity.

[MasenkoHA]

All I hear is excuses. Anything can be excused with this show. But just because you have an excuse doesn't mean it's okay. or good writing.

Not excuses you just don’t like you’re wrong *shrug*
They’re not deus ex machina and that term gets misused as bad as Mary Sue to just be shorthand for “I don’t like this”
There’s plenty of sloppy writing in Dragon Ball but zenkai boost aren’t one of them

I think they're good, although they do get ditched in the Android saga and then conveniently brought back when Cell blows himself up.

I don’t think they were ditched as much as it was understood that it could only get you so far. Goku got a lot further from actually training rather than depending on these boost like Vegeta had. That’s why it’s funny to me fans are acting like it was some huge cheat code to the story.


Cell’s zenkai boost was necessary to create tension I think. Needed to give Gohan a struggle now that he was past his smug sociopath moment.

[ABED]

This alien superiority BS is deus ex machina

How is that a deus ex machina? A DEM is a contrivance of the plot in order to get the characters out of a seemingly hopeless situation.

These boosts work for the story and speak to how the Saiyans are made for battle.

They had access to the most advanced medical care in the universe, they're not going to mortally wound each other and throw themselves into the healing pods to make gains?

Assuming they could get to them in time and not accidentally kill each other.

And sure it didn't resolve everything, but writers do not have to follow the confines of a trope to the letter.

They have to in essence.The trope doesn't fit either of the criteria to be considered a DEM.

All I hear is excuses. Anything can be excused with this show. But just because you have an excuse doesn't mean it's okay. or good writing.

We can argue whether they were overused, but that's a different argument. Whether they are deus ex machina is a whole other thing.

[jjgp1112]

I think they're good, although they do get ditched in the Android saga and then conveniently brought back when Cell blows himself up.

To be fair, though, the criteria was always "near death." Vegeta's big boosts in the Frieza saga came from a battle that he literally needed life support on the way back from, getting piledriven into the ground and almost drowning, and then getting a hole blasted through his stomach.

Comparatively, his beatings in the Android saga are pretty small-time. Embarrassing and debilitating, but his life was never in danger - hell, the Androids were specifically *not* trying to kill him! You could argue with Cell, but he got KO'd in two hits, really.