Are Saiyan near-death power-ups good or bad in DBZ?

[ABED]

Freeza doesn't seem to like pushing himself to the limit, so he transformed to overcome his opponent.

[BWri]

And again the zenkais ONLY help against fodder villains aka Zarbon and Jheese. How are they a deus ex machina when Vegeta still loses to the actual bad bad?The story subverts the very thing the fandom is pretending got played straight.

Zenkais help throughout the entire Namek saga. Every step of progress Vegeta makes on Namek is preceeded by a zenkai. Without zenkai he would have died much earlier.

Vegeta winning or losing doesn't doesn't affect anything when it comes to zenkai being a deus ex machina. We're talking about a story device that allows the author to move the characters and story in ways which the story's own internal logic would not logically allow.

"Aristotle was the first to use a Greek term equivalent to the Latin phrase deus ex machina to describe the technique as a device to resolve the plot of tragedies.[8] It is generally deemed undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of creativity on the part of the author. The reasons for this are that it does damage to the story's internal logic and is often so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, allowing the author to conclude the story with an unlikely ending."

This is what happens when fans try to turn the narrative into a video game or trading game where all these characters have imaginary stats. “Waaah your Goku was at a level 8 how did you get him to level 93?”

I don't know why you guys keep saying this. We're literally using Toriyama-san's own story logic to determine what makes sense and what doesn't. The story uses numbers to invoke tension and so the reader must be aware of these author generated "stats" to even fully understand the tension of the scene. Otherwise, what's to stop Krillin, Gohan, and Vegeta from punching Frieza in the face and stomping him on the ground. They outnumber him after all, oh wait, it's the astronomically bigger numbers Frieza keeps pulling out of his ass that the author continues to reference.

[BWri]

when you have a plethora of healing mcguffins

That's not what a mcGuffin is. A McGuffin is a plot device that the characters are going after which gets the plot rolling, but ultimately not what the core of the story is about.

You're right. I meant to say gimmick.

[MasenkoHA]

Zenkais help throughout the entire Namek saga. Every step of progress Vegeta makes on Namek is preceeded by a zenkai. Without zenkai he would have died much earlier.

Which, again, ultimately does him no good. He still gets stomped by Freeza and murdered. Meanwhile the low class Saiyan who actually worked for his gains instead of depending solely on Saiyan biology does much better. And after that Vegeta never depends on zenkais ever again and actually starts working towards becoming stronger rather than falling back on “if I lose badly I’ll just be stronger next time”

Vegeta winning or losing doesn't doesn't affect anything when it comes to zenkai being a deus ex machina. We're talking about a story device that allows the author to move the characters and story in ways which the story's own internal logic would not logically allow.

The internal logic is “Saiyans get stronger every time we nearly die in combat” please tell me where the issue lies? I don’t like this plot device=/= deus ex machina.

Aristotle was the first to use a Greek term equivalent to the Latin phrase deus ex machina to describe the technique as a device to resolve the plot of tragedies.[8] It is generally deemed undesirable in writing and often implies a lack of creativity on the part of the author. The reasons for this are that it does damage to the story's internal logic and is often so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief, allowing the author to conclude the story with an unlikely ending."

And what do you know? The zenkais don’t resolve the plot! Thank you for reinforcing my point that fans calling them a deus ex machina don’t actually understand what a deus ex machina is.

I don't know why you guys keep saying this. We're literally using Toriyama-san's own story logic to determine what makes sense and what doesn't

Because you all are complaining about Saiyans having a biological advantage that only gets them so far. Even with the retroactively implied zenkai boost Goku gets throughout the pre-Raditz era its his own hard work that gets him through surpassing his foes, aside that one time he just drank magic water which is an actual example of a deus ex machina.

.

The story uses numbers to invoke tension and so the reader must be aware of these author generated "stats" to even fully understand the tension of the scene.

The stats which are shown to be meaningless because the heroes can hide and increase theirs at will..

The whole damn point is trying to turn it into a numbers game is a fool’s errand.

Otherwise, what's to stop Krillin, Gohan, and Vegeta from punching Frieza in the face and stomping him on the ground. They outnumber him after all, oh wait, it's the astronomically bigger numbers Frieza keeps pulling out of his ass that the author continues to reference.

Because it’s established from moment one that Freeza is incredibly powerful. There’s no asspulling involved. These are just bad faith criticism.

[ABED]

We don't need the numbers to know Freeza is WAY stronger than Gohan and Kuririn and Freeza. We know this from the hierarchy. Freeza used to work for him and he's clearly staying away from him out of fear. Then there's the scene where Freeza and his minions flyby as Gohan and Kuririn duck into the cave. The look of sheer terror tells the story. Freeza is scary strong.

[Dr. Casey]

I dunno if Deus Ex Machinas are even necessarily a bad thing. If they're used too liberally, yeah, they can come across as poor/cheap writing, or remove the sense of tension because you know the heroes will always be bailed out by the author somehow, but used in moderation they can just be a cool plot twist. In Yu Yu Hakusho I think the end to Chapter Black was probably a full-blown DEM (Yusuke turns into a demon thanks to his half-demon heritage, which I don't remember ever being foreshadowed, and manhandles the main villain of the arc), but most people didn't think "Deus Ex Machina!" so much as "whoa cool plot twist, this is getting good." There's a few other writing techniques that have a bad reputation which I either don't mind or generally like, such as infodumps (being hit with plot twist after plot twist and revelation after revelation can make for some really gripping scenes, especially if they answer questions you've been wondering the whole story) and timeskips (timeskips are one of my favorite literary techniques and many of my favorite stories belong to that list specifically because timeskips are employed, but they've come under heat in recent years for being 'lazy' and not showing the transition between point A and point B).

[Yuli Ban]

Zenkai boosts are contrived but it's part of the magic of the story. As I've stated before, Dragon Ball Z's strongest storytelling ability is that of catharsis, and what is more cathartic than turning the tables on their cocky-ass opponents? It's the equivalent of meeting up with an narcissistic abusive shitsack of a bully who tries picking on you again, except now you're a krav maga expert... or his boss.

I like the fantheory that zenkai is an expression of Super Saiyan spirit leading up to a Saiyan's transformation and that, once you unlock the Super Saiyan transformation, zenkai no longer works or is so negligible as to be worthless to rely on. I know that's not actually the case but at least it works without making the Saiyans even more OP. Because when you start thinking about it, Freeza's fear makes perfect sense: it took Son Goku about a year give or take a few months and a spout of death to go from "high-end Earthling" to "alien battle messiah". Vegeta went from his classic "power level of 18,000" to approaching Son Goku pre-transformed after just a few harsh beatings. He may be an elite but surely Saiyans could follow in his footsteps. Imagine if the masses of Saiyan warriors were given another generation of battle. You think there's a Super Saiyan bargain bin now? We could've had a literal army, a LITERAL army of Super Saiyans. But that does beg the question why zenkai never factored into Saiyan power beforehand.

Just a lot of unanswered questions!

[MasenkoHA]

Zenkai boosts are contrived

Oh they are contrived because they’re a convenient way for the Saiyans to make jumps in power but Toriyama plays fair with it (we just learned what Saiyans were the previous arc, nothing in Goku’s past contradicts this concept, and they never resolve the story only get Vegeta far enough to overpower Freeza’s second in command and one of his elite mercenaries ) but fictional stories are full of contrivances.

I know that's not actually the case but at least it works without making the Saiyans even more OP.

I prefer to think zenkai boost are useful when the gap between Saiyans and their opponents aren’t too big. At least 3 zenkai boost since we meet him and Vegeta is powerful enough to overpower Jheese. A fourth one does him no good against final form Freeza holding back most of his power.

Would the boost he got from his beatdown from 18 been enough to defeat her in a rematch at that time? Who knows. But any boost he got from fighting Perfect Cell wouldn’t have done shit and Vegeta knows it which is why he hyper focused on more Room of Spirit and Time training.

Because when you start thinking about it, Freeza's fear makes perfect sense: it took Son Goku about a year give or take a few months and a spout of death to go from "high-end Earthling" to "alien battle messiah". Vegeta went from his classic "power level of 18,000" to approaching Son Goku pre-transformed after just a few harsh beatings. He may be an elite but surely Saiyans could follow in his footsteps. Imagine if the masses of Saiyan warriors were given another generation of battle. You think there's a Super Saiyan bargain bin now? We could've had a literal army, a LITERAL army of Super Saiyans. But that does beg the question why zenkai never factored into Saiyan power beforehand.

Just a lot of unanswered questions!

Less we forget Kuririn’s Fighting Power was 206 when Bulma first read his power. After a year of training with Kami-sama his battle power is 1083 as read by Nappa (and implied to not be his true power) Kuririn quintupled his power doing the same type of training Goku did for 3 years.

And while less valid, being nonsensical anime filler, Yamucha and company were able to beat the non-Captain Ginyus of the Ginyu Force. Meaning at least according to Toei the 3 of them went from significantly weaker than Nappa than stronger than Beast Mode Zarbon in like…a week?

[ABED]

I dunno if Deus Ex Machinas are even necessarily a bad thing. If they're used too liberally, yeah, they can come across as poor/cheap writing, or remove the sense of tension because you know the heroes will always be bailed out by the author somehow, but used in moderation they can just be a cool plot twist. In Yu Yu Hakusho I think the end to Chapter Black was probably a full-blown DEM (Yusuke turns into a demon thanks to his half-demon heritage, which I don't remember ever being foreshadowed, and manhandles the main villain of the arc), but most people didn't think "Deus Ex Machina!" so much as "whoa cool plot twist, this is getting good." There's a few other writing techniques that have a bad reputation which I either don't mind or generally like, such as infodumps (being hit with plot twist after plot twist and revelation after revelation can make for some really gripping scenes, especially if they answer questions you've been wondering the whole story) and timeskips (timeskips are one of my favorite literary techniques and many of my favorite stories belong to that list specifically because timeskips are employed, but they've come under heat in recent years for being 'lazy' and not showing the transition between point A and point B).

Yusuke's demon lineage wasn't a deux ex machina. It was said from the beginning that he was special, we just didn't know exactly why. It also meshes with his sense of detachment. He doesn't manhandle Sensui until his ancestor takes him over and leads to him going to demon world where he eventually reconciles all parts of himself.

Info dumps aren't necessarily bad, but a few things to watch out for like why would the character (even a cocky one) offer up the information? Is this grinding the story to a halt? Is all this information necessary? Does it answer questions the audience needs?

I like time-skips when use effectively. One Tree Hill, a teen drama, had them graduate at the end of season 4, then season 5 began 4 years later. It accomplished a number of good things, not the least of which was skip the college years which are historically where similar shows fall off the rails. But like anything, time-skips can be abused and WAY too many important changes happen during the skip. Young Justice is the most guilty of this. DB employs time-skips effectively by showing them as periods of extended peace or training.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I think they're good because they give a sense of reward to saiyans that endure immense pain for their perseverance and dedication to win the fight.

I don't think they are contrived because tough fights are bound to push the saiyans to their limits, even moreso than training on their own.

The saiyans are also a warrior race by blood, so it should come natural to them.

[BWri]

Zenkais help throughout the entire Namek saga. Every step of progress Vegeta makes on Namek is preceeded by a zenkai. Without zenkai he would have died much earlier.

Which, again, ultimately does him no good.

Surviving each encounter does him plenty good, otherwise he would have received the Yamcha treatment early on. The zenkais allow him to participate in the story in a meaningful way. This is according to the author's own rules.

He still gets stomped by Freeza and murdered. Meanwhile the low class Saiyan who actually worked for his gains instead of depending solely on Saiyan biology does much better. And after that Vegeta never depends on zenkais ever again and actually starts working towards becoming stronger rather than falling back on “if I lose badly I’ll just be stronger next time”

Which is great! It would be even better if zenkais made more sense. Otherwise, why not abuse them if in a single moment you can gain 16 or 33x the strength? And Goku gained more from zenkai than Vegeta did. That's the point many of us are trying to point out. The lowclass saiyan narrative you pointed out works better if Goku didn't benefit more from zenkai than Vegeta did.

The internal logic is “Saiyans get stronger every time we nearly die in combat” please tell me where the issue lies? I don’t like this plot device=/= deus ex machina.

Not sure why you'd simplify the issue down to that point. The issue is in the detail. If I write something and simplify the fact that humans heal over time to just that without any detail, then I can heal them at whatever rate I want. Whatever's convenient for me, whatever I think makes sense at any given time. They can heal as fast as Wolverine if I want or even faster, and maybe I don't want them to require rest either. That's no problem if its a world I created and I establish that. The problem comes in when I depict them healing at much slower rates for the bulk of the story then suddenly give them miraculous healing abilities for a small stretch of the story without explanation and then just take that away.

For Saiyan zenkais the problem is the exact same. The degree to which they increase power is out of step with the rest of the series, outside of one-offs like Cell and Zamasu.

And what do you know? The zenkais don’t resolve the plot! Thank you for reinforcing my point that fans calling them a deus ex machina don’t actually understand what a deus ex machina is.

Nah, your definition is just narrow. A deus ex machina doesn't have to resolve the plot. It has to resolve an issue or situation that is seemingly unresolvable. I've already listed many situations and issues that the zenkais do in fact resolve.

Because you all are complaining about Saiyans having a biological advantage that only gets them so far.

I'm not complaining. My first post was a post saying zenkais are fine outside of the Frieza arc. I said I like that the Saiyans have advantages of their own and even if I rewrote it I'd still give them zenkais but I'd tone it down. As far as getting them so far, a 33x power increase during a nap is nothing to sneeze at. Again, the strength scaling is baked into the narrative by the author. It matters according to him.

Even with the retroactively implied zenkai boost Goku gets throughout the pre-Raditz era its his own hard work that gets him through surpassing his foes, aside that one time

Those are fine

he just drank magic water which is an actual example of a deus ex machina.

Yes, but not every example of deus ex machina has to be literal.

The stats which are shown to be meaningless because the heroes can hide and increase theirs at will..

Right. The numbers never become meaningless though. They could only be used to trick those who were careless. They were also used to effectively create drama.

The whole damn point is trying to turn it into a numbers game is a fool’s errand.

Not exactly. Not having a big enough number still excludes you from contributing meaningfully in battle. The fool's errand part of it is that you can't always trust what you see, mainly with the Earthlings.

Because it’s established from moment one that Freeza is incredibly powerful. There’s no asspulling involved. These are just bad faith criticism.

Not at all. I'm saying that the creator uses numbers and math to instill tension. By asspull, I was referring to the numbers and math you keep saying we're adding to the story. Toriyama-san is the person, via Frieza and his soldiers, to add numbers and math into the story and those became vital to understanding just how terrifying and hopeless the situation was. He used them as an easy way to communicate just how outmatched the heroes were and conversely, how miraculously strong they had become.

[Dr. Casey]

Yusuke's demon lineage wasn't a deux ex machina. It was said from the beginning that he was special, we just didn't know exactly why. It also meshes with his sense of detachment. He doesn't manhandle Sensui until his ancestor takes him over and leads to him going to demon world where he eventually reconciles all parts of himself.

Understood. I saw Yu Yu Hakusho subbed back in 2008, but that was a fairly long time ago and I was depressed over some stuff at the time to boot, so my memory of the series is less than stellar.

[BWri]

We don't need the numbers to know Freeza is WAY stronger than Gohan and Kuririn and Freeza.

I would argue that we did. There is a clear distinction in the terror imposed by Frieza to that created by Vegeta, Raditz, and even King Piccolo. Vegeta and Raditz also used the same numbers and math system that Frieza did. It's easy communication to show the magnitude of difference Frieza had above them.

We know this from the hierarchy. Freeza used to work for him and he's clearly staying away from him out of fear. Then there's the scene where Freeza and his minions flyby as Gohan and Kuririn duck into the cave. The look of sheer terror tells the story. Freeza is scary strong.

You're right, those are effective ways of instilling the notion that Frieza is to be feared. Still, you would not have been able to communicate just how far removed he was from his henchmen, eliminating some of that terror. We would only quantify that he's stronger than Ginyu. We would have no idea that Ginyu was only 1/5 as strong as his first form or 1/1000 as strong as his final form. It adds an extra layer of terror to know exactly how outclassed the characters are.

The use of numbers is what separates Frieza's terror from King Piccolo's.

[MyVisionity]

No, the numbers help, but it's the rest of the writing that gives us the idea of how powerful Freeza is. It's built up in the dialogue for the entire saga. Plus the final battle brings in the transformations which definitely makes Freeza's power clear. None of the previous villains were ever written the way that Freeza was.

It was said from the beginning that he was special, we just didn't know exactly why.

That wasn't foreshadowing Yusuke's lineage or anything. The plot twist makes sense in retrospect, but it's not like it was a straightforward plot development. And Yusuke being special isn't exclusive to his Mazoku ancestry anyhow.

I don't know about One Tree Hill, maybe it's a unique show, but I can't imagine any teen drama on network television having a legitimate reason for a timeskip. That seems like more of an excuse for a weak writing staff than anything else. It's also disrespectful to the audience. And in poor taste in my view.

Timeskips in DB and anime are a different thing, as they don't actually skip over parts of the story. They jump forward in time and resume the story.

[BWri]

No, the numbers help, but it's the rest of the writing that gives us the idea of how powerful Freeza is. It's built up in the dialogue for the entire saga. Plus the final battle brings in the transformations which definitely makes Freeza's power clear. None of the previous villains were ever written the way that Freeza was.

Perhaps I'm overselling them, but yes the numbers make the communication between author and reader crystal clear and adds the precise detail of how outclassed the heroes are.

There's a reason Frieza continues to quote his power in numbers (2nd form) and percentages (final form) even after the story has done away with the scouters. It's so we as well as the characters know at all times exactly where he stands compared to them.

[MasenkoHA]

And Goku gained more from zenkai than Vegeta did. That's the point many of us are trying to point out. The lowclass saiyan narrative you pointed out works better if Goku didn't benefit more from zenkai than Vegeta did.

Once again that just flat out isn’t true. Goku did not benefit more from zenkais than Vegeta did. He actually worked harder to get stronger by doing 100x gravity training during his voyage to Namek in direct contrast to Vegeta who solely depended on zenkai boost at that time. Goku didn’t magically benefit from a random number generator he worked harder for his increase in power. The zenkais were supplementary for him at most.

Not sure why you'd simplify the issue down to that point. The issue is in the detail. If I write something and simplify the fact that humans heal over time to just that without any detail, then I can heal them at whatever rate I want.

. The problem comes in when I depict them healing at much slower rates for the bulk of the story then suddenly give them miraculous healing abilities for a small stretch of the story without explanation and then just take that away.

For Saiyan zenkais the problem is the exact same. The degree to which they increase power is out of step with the rest of the series, outside of one-offs like Cell and Zamasu.

But again not really. The first time we hear about it is when Vegeta easily defeats a guy who was before his equal. Then he fights on pretty even ground with Zarbon until Zarbon transforms into Beast Mode. Vegeta gets another boost and then become stronger than Zarbon in his Beast Form. He’s still weaker than the non-Ghurd
members of the Ginyu Force until he gets another boost and defeats Jheese who may very well be the second weakest member.

Nah, your definition is just narrow. A deus ex machina doesn't have to resolve the plot. It has to resolve an issue or situation that is seemingly unresolvable. I've already listed many situations and issues that the zenkais do in fact resolve.

And here’s the thing they were introduced by having Vegeta defeat an opponent we never saw in combat before and were only told was his equal. Vegeta could have easily been written to already been stronger than Kiwi. There was nothing unresolvable about the situation Toriyama just to establish that Saiyans could get stronger here to set up Vegeta being able to overpower his opponents as he fights. There was no writing in a corner. Fuck by the time he obliterates Jheese it didn’t matter because Goku was a lot stronger than Jheese.

Not at all. I'm saying that the creator uses numbers and math to instill tension. By asspull, I was referring to the numbers and math you keep saying we're adding to the story. Toriyama-san is the person, via Frieza and his soldiers, to add numbers and math into the story and those became vital to understanding just how terrifying and hopeless the situation was. He used them as an easy way to communicate just how outmatched the heroes were and conversely, how miraculously strong they had become.

But again you don’t need those numbers. When Freeza rules over the universe and Vegeta is afraid of him and that transcribes to the audience how powerful he is. In fact Freeza’s Battle Power barely comes up.

[ABED]

We don't need the numbers to know Freeza is WAY stronger than Gohan and Kuririn and Freeza.

I would argue that we did. There is a clear distinction in the terror imposed by Frieza to that created by Vegeta, Raditz, and even King Piccolo. Vegeta and Raditz also used the same numbers and math system that Frieza did. It's easy communication to show the magnitude of difference Frieza had above them.

We know this from the hierarchy. Freeza used to work for him and he's clearly staying away from him out of fear. Then there's the scene where Freeza and his minions flyby as Gohan and Kuririn duck into the cave. The look of sheer terror tells the story. Freeza is scary strong.

You're right, those are effective ways of instilling the notion that Frieza is to be feared. Still, you would not have been able to communicate just how far removed he was from his henchmen, eliminating some of that terror. We would only quantify that he's stronger than Ginyu. We would have no idea that Ginyu was only 1/5 as strong as his first form or 1/1000 as strong as his final form. It adds an extra layer of terror to know exactly how outclassed the characters are.

The use of numbers is what separates Frieza's terror from King Piccolo's.

It's not the numbers it's the sheer look of panic on all the characters faces. Even Vegeta has a look of hopelessness at the end. Made up math does nothing. The gap between Freeza and everyone else is exponentially greater than the Saiyans and the Earthlings in the previous arc, and yet there's a palpable sense of hopelessness and dread that pervades both arc. This isn't due to arbitrary math.

Yusuke being special isn't exclusive to his Mazoku ancestry anyhow.

Didn't say it was, just like Goku's Saiayn blood isn't the exclusive reason why he's special.

I don't know about One Tree Hill, maybe it's a unique show, but I can't imagine any teen drama on network television having a legitimate reason for a timeskip. That seems like more of an excuse for a weak writing staff than anything else. It's also disrespectful to the audience. And in poor taste in my view.

What exactly is a "legitimate reason" for a timeskip? And how are they excuses and disrespectful? OTH's timeskip worked because the story threads had concluded. They reached an end. They could move past another four years of school where they'd have to justify the characters all staying in the same place and what is typically a weak point in the genre - the college years. It's not disrespectful as important developments aren't brushed over. We see them as the story unfolds in flashback. The 5th season starts off with a bit of mystery so there's a hook. It's typically misused when too many important developments happen during the skips. Young Justice is HORRIBLE with this. It was overused. It's a bad use of a perfectly fine plot device.

[Koitsukai]

What exactly is a "legitimate reason" for a timeskip? And how are they excuses and disrespectful? OTH's timeskip worked because the story threads had concluded. They reached an end. They could move past another four years of school where they'd have to justify the characters all staying in the same place and what is typically a weak point in the genre - the college years. It's not disrespectful as important developments aren't brushed over. We see them as the story unfolds in flashback. The 5th season starts off with a bit of mystery so there's a hook. It's typically misused when too many important developments happen during the skips. Young Justice is HORRIBLE with this. It was overused. It's a bad use of a perfectly fine plot device.

Sorry to derail this, I used to love OTH up to the sixth season or the seventh, then stopped watching when new characters showed up and must've missed the last two seasons... are they any good? should I bother watching them? does Lucas come back?

[MyVisionity]

OTH's timeskip worked because the story threads had concluded. They reached an end.

Well if that's the case then they should have just ended the series.

If they really wanted to come back, then they should have at least re-branded the series like other network tv shows do, or like how anime shows do.

[MasenkoHA]

OTH's timeskip worked because the story threads had concluded. They reached an end.

Well if that's the case then they should have just ended the series.

Dragon Ball did that twice. Once from 23rd Tenkaichi to Raditz and again from Cell to Boo.