Is Goku an Underdog?

[lancerman]

Being an underdog and ultimately winning are not mutually exclusive concepts.

By the information presented to us, Goku is clearly the underdog vs Piccolo, Raditz, Vegeta, and Freeza. He's the best option for the heroes, but he's presented as a guy who is unlikely to win and has to overcome adversity to win.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku who was dismissed as worthless because of his low battle power and being born to a low class warrior is an underdog though at least in the Saiyan arc.

Well but you're proving my point are you not, because the only time he's an underdog is when he is against another Saiyan.

No, because your entire argument is “He can’t be an underdog because he’s a Saiyan”

I agree that Goku isn’t usually treated as an underdog but it has nothing to do with his Saiyan genes. In fact it was the revelation that he was a Saiyan and one of the weak ones that framed him as underdog for that story.


I’d also argue Vegeta became something of an underdog himself as the story progressed as he literally could not catch up to Goku.

If Goku was born an earthling he'd have been fodder. If Goku was born a cerelean he'd have been fodder. He'd never even survive against the Saiyans.

So Yes his Saiyan genes ensured he'd be relevant power-wise, and therefore he's not an underdog thanks to being a Saiyan.

The real underdogs are Yamcha, Krillin, Roshi, Granolah, etc.

[Yosheets]

Yes, he definitely is. Raditz is his own brother, and a Low Class Saiyan at that, and even he was in a league of his own compared to Goku.

[MasenkoHA]

Well but you're proving my point are you not, because the only time he's an underdog is when he is against another Saiyan.

No, because your entire argument is “He can’t be an underdog because he’s a Saiyan”

I agree that Goku isn’t usually treated as an underdog but it has nothing to do with his Saiyan genes. In fact it was the revelation that he was a Saiyan and one of the weak ones that framed him as underdog for that story.


I’d also argue Vegeta became something of an underdog himself as the story progressed as he literally could not catch up to Goku.

If Goku was born an earthling he'd have been fodder. If Goku was born a cerelean he'd have been fodder. He'd never even survive against the Saiyans.

So Yes his Saiyan genes ensured he'd be relevant power-wise, and therefore he's not an underdog thanks to being a Saiyan.

The real underdogs are Yamcha, Krillin, Roshi, Granolah, etc.

No, his main character status ensured his relevance power wise.

[Yuji]

Are we forgetting the Saiyans got themselves wiped out and even average warrior Namekians surpassed most low to mid-class Saiyans? They have gifted genetics for transformations but let's not act like the Saiyans are the biggest deal in the universe. The Namek arc made it clear that despite Vegeta's posturing, Saiyans aren't really all that special in the grand scheme of things. A battle power of 18,000 is considered an anomaly and a battle power of 90,000 is "surpassing Saiyan limits." Meanwhile, Freeza has goons all in the 18,000-120,000 range, and Nail weighs in at 42,000.

[Super Sonic]

When the headlines read of those whose hearts are filled with greed and rob and steal from those in need, will Goku right this wrong with blinding speed?

[Cursed Lemon]

I mean, heroes are literally always the underdog. That's how that works. lol

[DBZAOTA482]

He is in the sense that he started from absolutely nothing. He wasn't a child of prophecy nor did he come from a special lineage. He always had to prove himself.

[goku the krump dancer]

I don't think he is. I think he's usually expected to win even if the story tries to stack the odds against him

This is pretty much where I stand on it. He’s not written as some poor sap, who has to pull out all the stops to prove himself to others. He enjoys competition almost to an unhealthy degree, I don’t think that’s a trait of an underdog nor do I think that “underdogs overcoming the odds” is the theme of the show.

[ABED]

I mean, heroes are literally always the underdog. That's how that works. lol

Not really. Rocky was an underdog, but John Matrix wasn't. Sure the story tries to stack the odds against Matrix as any good story does but Matrix was desribed as being one the best. Rocky was an unremarkable fighter with an unimpressive win loss record going up against the undefeated champ who had never had to go the full 15.

[Kunzait_83]

Not really. Rocky was an underdog, but John Matrix wasn't. Sure the story tries to stack the odds against Matrix as any good story does but Matrix was desribed as being one the best. Rocky was an unremarkable fighter with an unimpressive win loss record going up against the undefeated champ who had never had to go the full 15.

Similarly, Kenshiro is rarely ever portrayed at the underdog in Fist of the North Star. Only on a few occasions and MUCH later into the series does that ever happen. But for the VAST bulk of the series, Ken is very much in a whole other league from a vast majority of the opponents he faces (most of whom he dispatches with absolute ease).

The story still works, is still effective, and still has tension: but its done from a very different vantage point and perspective than your typical "underdog" stories tend to come at it from, because the dynamics of Fist's dystopian narrative aren't that of a typical "underdog hero" story: partly because more often than not, its the actual world of the story itself and the sense of futility and despair it inspires that's the real main villain that must be overcome, rather than any one, specific opponent that Ken faces.

And the fact that as easily as Ken can take out another wannabe dictator or despot trying to lord over the weak, another ten or twelve simply slide easily into their place just further solidifies the hopeless, corrupting nature of Fist's world, and its generally the greedy, selfish nature of men when placed in desperate, horrible circumstances that serves as the real central antagonist throughout the whole series rather than some specific overwhelming and night unbeatable opponent that one can put a name and a face to that Ken must overcome (though like I said, the later parts of the series DO eventually offer that to Kenshiro).

Some argue that its a writing no-no to not have your protagonist be the underdog, and that it sucks all the tension and stakes from a story. I would argue however that its actually very much possible to make an effective story where the protagonist isn't the underdog but rather has the clear advantage throughout: its just a LOT trickier and much more challenging and presents a lot more obvious hurdles to overcome. But it IS doable, plenty of stories HAVE pulled it off before. Underdog stories are just easier and simpler to craft: but they aren't the only way of doing things.

[Yuji]

Not really. Rocky was an underdog, but John Matrix wasn't. Sure the story tries to stack the odds against Matrix as any good story does but Matrix was desribed as being one the best. Rocky was an unremarkable fighter with an unimpressive win loss record going up against the undefeated champ who had never had to go the full 15.

Similarly, Kenshiro is rarely ever portrayed at the underdog in Fist of the North Star. Only on a few occasions and MUCH later into the series does that ever happen. But for the VAST bulk of the series, Ken is very much in a whole other league from a vast majority of the opponents he faces (most of whom he dispatches with absolute ease).

The story still works, is still effective, and still has tension: but its done from a very different vantage point and perspective than your typical "underdog" stories tend to come at it from, because the dynamics of Fist's dystopian narrative aren't that of a typical "underdog hero" story: partly because more often than not, its the actual world of the story itself and the sense of futility and despair it inspires that's the real main villain that must be overcome, rather than any one, specific opponent that Ken faces.

And the fact that as easily as Ken can take out another wannabe dictator or despot trying to lord over the weak, another ten or twelve simply slide easily into their place just further solidifies the hopeless, corrupting nature of Fist's world, and its generally the greedy, selfish nature of men when placed in desperate, horrible circumstances that serves as the real central antagonist throughout the whole series rather than some specific overwhelming and night unbeatable opponent that one can put a name and a face to that Ken must overcome (though like I said, the later parts of the series DO eventually offer that to Kenshiro).

Some argue that its a writing no-no to not have your protagonist be the underdog, and that it sucks all the tension and stakes from a story. I would argue however that its actually very much possible to make an effective story where the protagonist isn't the underdog but rather has the clear advantage throughout: its just a LOT trickier and much more challenging and presents a lot more obvious hurdles to overcome. But it IS doable, plenty of stories HAVE pulled it off before. Underdog stories are just easier and simpler to craft: but they aren't the only way of doing things.

Dragon Ball itself wasn't an underdog story for 195 chapters of its run. Goku was consistently portrayed as an overpowered prodigy everyone else couldn't measure up to. He very rarely loses or gets challenged seriously.

[Cursed Lemon]

I mean, heroes are literally always the underdog. That's how that works. lol

Not really. Rocky was an underdog, but John Matrix wasn't. Sure the story tries to stack the odds against Matrix as any good story does but Matrix was desribed as being one the best. Rocky was an unremarkable fighter with an unimpressive win loss record going up against the undefeated champ who had never had to go the full 15.

Never actually saw Commando so I can't comment on that one.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Not really. Rocky was an underdog, but John Matrix wasn't. Sure the story tries to stack the odds against Matrix as any good story does but Matrix was desribed as being one the best. Rocky was an unremarkable fighter with an unimpressive win loss record going up against the undefeated champ who had never had to go the full 15.

Similarly, Kenshiro is rarely ever portrayed at the underdog in Fist of the North Star. Only on a few occasions and MUCH later into the series does that ever happen. But for the VAST bulk of the series, Ken is very much in a whole other league from a vast majority of the opponents he faces (most of whom he dispatches with absolute ease).

The story still works, is still effective, and still has tension: but its done from a very different vantage point and perspective than your typical "underdog" stories tend to come at it from, because the dynamics of Fist's dystopian narrative aren't that of a typical "underdog hero" story: partly because more often than not, its the actual world of the story itself and the sense of futility and despair it inspires that's the real main villain that must be overcome, rather than any one, specific opponent that Ken faces.

And the fact that as easily as Ken can take out another wannabe dictator or despot trying to lord over the weak, another ten or twelve simply slide easily into their place just further solidifies the hopeless, corrupting nature of Fist's world, and its generally the greedy, selfish nature of men when placed in desperate, horrible circumstances that serves as the real central antagonist throughout the whole series rather than some specific overwhelming and night unbeatable opponent that one can put a name and a face to that Ken must overcome (though like I said, the later parts of the series DO eventually offer that to Kenshiro).

Some argue that its a writing no-no to not have your protagonist be the underdog, and that it sucks all the tension and stakes from a story. I would argue however that its actually very much possible to make an effective story where the protagonist isn't the underdog but rather has the clear advantage throughout: its just a LOT trickier and much more challenging and presents a lot more obvious hurdles to overcome. But it IS doable, plenty of stories HAVE pulled it off before. Underdog stories are just easier and simpler to craft: but they aren't the only way of doing things.

IIRC the first opponent he really had trouble with was Souther, and that was relatively early into the series. Although once he figured out that Souther's pressure points were reversed he defeated him without much trouble.

I think he was portrayed as an underdog against Raoh, and that was about halfway into the manga.

Anyway, another example of a hero who isn't an underdog is Saitama from One Punch Man... in fact the joke is that his opponents are always the underdog. But that's kind of intended as a subversion/parody of the typical shounen formula.

[ABED]

I mean, heroes are literally always the underdog. That's how that works. lol

Not really. Rocky was an underdog, but John Matrix wasn't. Sure the story tries to stack the odds against Matrix as any good story does but Matrix was desribed as being one the best. Rocky was an unremarkable fighter with an unimpressive win loss record going up against the undefeated champ who had never had to go the full 15.

Never actually saw Commando so I can't comment on that one.

you really should. It's Arnold at his 1980's best. The scene where Matrix drives a jeep down a mountain without a functioning engine or brakes is one of the best scenes in an action move I can recall.

[emperior]

As others already pointed out, it depends.

Goku first becomes an underdog in Piccolo Daimao arc. The following arc, he’s on par with Piccolo Jr so then he no longer is an underdog. But then the Saiyan arc comes and Goku is portrayed as an underdog. Despite having trained all his life and having proven himself as the strongest on Earth, he sucks hard compared to his Saiyan peers, including his own brother. And they are the kind of people who were born strong and needed no training to be strong. In fact it turns out that Goku was explicitly sent to Earth for being weaker compared to others of his race. And even on Earth he had trouble, as without training under 4 different masters (Gohan, Kamesennin, Karin, Popo/Kami) he wouldn’t have survived.

In the Saiyan arc though Goku proves that he can overcome any adversity by training himself up to be ready for a challenge, and he no longer feels like an underdog because his foes can all be surpassed by the guy who claims that “even the lowest born can surpass the elite if he puts his mind on it”. It’s more a matter of when than of how.

Therefore I think that Goku is an unusual kind of underdog, and that’s due to how Dragon Ball works as it puts no limit to the level of power anyone can reach, always raising the bar with each arc instead of having the protagonist start weak with a clear goal in mind (like Naruto or Deku).

Super kind of changed this and made Goku and Vegeta underdogs to Beerus, while introducing many foes in a row weaker than Beerus. It’s still different from how other stories portray the underdog dynamic, though, but Goku was definitely the underdog against Jiren for example. Nobody but his friends believed he could surpass him, and yet he did, even though he started the tournament much weaker.

[Demon Prince Piccolo]

He's first truly presented as an underdog against Piccolo Daimao. Prior to that, he's mainly underestimated by several opponents due to his small size and naive, carefree attitude; however it's clear that this kid is a natural prodigy and lifting way above his weight class. Even when he loses (like against Jackie Chun), it's clear that he pushes his opponent to the very limit. Even against the Red Ribbon Army, it's clear that he'll continue to overcome obstacles and steamroll his way through them (despite setbacks like Tao Pai Pai). No matter how strong his friends get, Goku is usually that much stronger to stay a comfortable distance in front.

Goku is also an underdog against Raditz and later Vegeta. He practically trains in heaven, learning a wealth of new techniques and gaining immense power, yet he's still completely outclassed by the Saiyajin Prince Vegeta and has to push his body to the max to make a dent in the armor. He's an underdog against Frieza as well, until transforming into a Super Saiyajin. I can't think of many of instances where Goku's been blatantly presented as an underdog character following this, even against stronger villains. From this point on, there's always the feeling that he'll pull something out of his sleeve. I'd argue that he stopped feeling like an underdog after the first Super Saiyajin transformation, and especially once he learned Instant Transmission.