Is Goku an Underdog?

[goku the krump dancer]

This comes from a discussion I was having with a buddy of mine who insist that Dragon Ball's overall theme is about Underdogs pushing their limits to win the day. I keep reiterating to him that underdogs usually have the odds stacked the against them and aren't the favorites to win and that's the exact opposite of how Goku is treated within the story. I told him Goku is a competitor at heart, he's already deemed the best by his peers, he seeks to improve just because he likes the rush of pushing himself and being ready for the next battle. I told him, you don't have to be an "Underdog" in order to enjoy pushing yourself.

I just thought I'd bring the conversation here to see if there's something that I'm missing or am I pretty much right on the money.

[MasenkoHA]

He’s presented as an underdog in the Saiyan arc and only the Saiyan arc. Since most start with (and often only watch) Z I think it informs their perception of Goku since their introduction to him was “We sent you to this planet because you were a weakling and all the other surviving members of our race are far stronger than you”

[Polyphase Avatron]

He’s presented as an underdog in the Saiyan arc and only the Saiyan arc. Since most start with (and often only watch) Z I think it informs their perception of Goku since their introduction to him was “We sent you to this planet because you were a weakling and all the other surviving members of our race are far stronger than you”

Goku has been an underdog a lot of times.

First was probably against the RRA. He's one kid taking on a global terrorist organization, with many fighters that are at least as strong as he is.

Then against King Piccolo, he's beaten by one of his underlings, and then beaten by the man himself, and Piccolo then gets to restore his youth and even kills Shenron, something unprecedented at that time. Against Freeza he was also the underdog, as it was constantly emphasized how outclassed he was before he reached SSJ1.

He was also an underdog against Perfect Cell (and he actually lost that), Kid Buu, Beerus (another one he lost), Hit, Zamasu, and Jiren. Moro too I think.

[Koitsukai]

To me, he was one vs:
Raditz
Vegeta
Freeza
Androids
Jiren

[MasenkoHA]

He’s presented as an underdog in the Saiyan arc and only the Saiyan arc. Since most start with (and often only watch) Z I think it informs their perception of Goku since their introduction to him was “We sent you to this planet because you were a weakling and all the other surviving members of our race are far stronger than you”

Goku has been an underdog a lot of times.

First was probably against the RRA. He's one kid taking on a global terrorist organization, with many fighters that are at least as strong as he is.

Then against King Piccolo, he's beaten by one of his underlings, and then beaten by the man himself, and Piccolo then gets to restore his youth and even kills Shenron, something unprecedented at that time. Against Freeza he was also the underdog, as it was constantly emphasized how outclassed he was before he reached SSJ1.

He was also an underdog against Perfect Cell (and he actually lost that), Kid Buu, Beerus (another one he lost), Hit, Zamasu, and Jiren. Moro too I think.

Having a villain start out stronger than the hero doesn’t make the hero an underdog or else that would be practically every good vs evil story ever.

Throughout the pre-Raditz era Goku is just portrayed as incredibly strong. He IS the measuring stick used to show how strong a foe is. If him being defeated is being used to let the audience know how powerful the villain is he’s not an underdog.

And he absolutely clowns the Red Ribbon army throughout most of the arc. It’s just laughable suggesting he was an underdog against them.

The Saiyan arc is the first time Goku is recontextualized as “actually he’s from a race of super strong fighting prodigy warriors and he’s so weak in comparison he was a write off” Vegeta vs Goku is framed as the elite vs the low class.


He’s not an underdog against Freeza because the narrative portrays him as the only one who can stop Freeza. His low class status no longer matters. He’s now his ancestral planet’s last hope and the story (particularly the anime) is constantly telegraphing Goku as “the chosen one” archetype

Likewise with Cell him giving up is suppose to be a plot swerve.

[jjgp1112]

He’s presented as an underdog in the Saiyan arc and only the Saiyan arc. Since most start with (and often only watch) Z I think it informs their perception of Goku since their introduction to him was “We sent you to this planet because you were a weakling and all the other surviving members of our race are far stronger than you”

Goku has been an underdog a lot of times.

First was probably against the RRA. He's one kid taking on a global terrorist organization, with many fighters that are at least as strong as he is.

Then against King Piccolo, he's beaten by one of his underlings, and then beaten by the man himself, and Piccolo then gets to restore his youth and even kills Shenron, something unprecedented at that time. Against Freeza he was also the underdog, as it was constantly emphasized how outclassed he was before he reached SSJ1.

He was also an underdog against Perfect Cell (and he actually lost that), Kid Buu, Beerus (another one he lost), Hit, Zamasu, and Jiren. Moro too I think.

I would say he's an underdog as much he's underestimated. Especially against the RRA - I mean, I guess he was the statistical underdog and I'm sure the Vegas odds woulda heavily favored the army, but aside from Tao the closest he ever got to any real danger was when General Blue tied him up

[LoganForkHands73]

Having a villain start out stronger than the hero doesn’t make the hero an underdog or else that would be practically every good vs evil story ever.

Throughout the pre-Raditz era Goku is just portrayed as incredibly strong. He IS the measuring stick used to show how strong a foe is. If him being defeated is being used to let the audience know how powerful the villain is he’s not an underdog.

And he absolutely clowns the Red Ribbon army throughout most of the arc. It’s just laughable suggesting he was an underdog against them.

The Saiyan arc is the first time Goku is recontextualized as “actually he’s from a race of super strong fighting prodigy warriors and he’s so weak in comparison he was a write off” Vegeta vs Goku is framed as the elite vs the low class.


He’s not an underdog against Freeza because the narrative portrays him as the only one who can stop Freeza. His low class status no longer matters. He’s now his ancestral planet’s last hope and the story (particularly the anime) is constantly telegraphing Goku as “the chosen one” archetype

Likewise with Cell him giving up is suppose to be a plot swerve.

What about Piccolo Daimao? Goku didn't stand a snowball's chance when they first fought. By the time they fought again, Piccolo had wished for youth, killed Shenron, taken over Earth, and wrecked all of Goku's friends. Goku had to down a pint of rat poison just to stand a chance.

Goku was framed as the only one who could defeat the enemy against both Vegeta and Freeza, so I can't see how his initial fight against Freeza was any less of an underdog narrative for Goku. If anything, the situation against Freeza was far more hopeless. All you need to look to is the bit where Freeza reveals he hadn't even been using a third of his power and the utter despair on Goku's face.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, that slim chance that he might be the legendary warrior, while spending the entire fight being kicked in the skull by the supressed emperor of the universe, is why he is the underdog. He just has, or MAY have, that legend going on for him while Freeza has every card on the deck and is just playing around. And legend and all, it was still a close race.

Freeza being the top dog is a subtext for every commentary made by Kaio sama in regards of Goku and Freeza. "Don't you fucking dare challenge Freeza, he is out of everybody's league" screams that.

[Yuji]

He was a prodigy in part 1 but part 2 flips that on its head and he becomes the underdog from Raditz onward.

[ABED]

I don't think he is. I think he's usually expected to win even if the story tries to stack the odds against him

[Cipher]

Not until Piccolo 1.0 shows up, really. Before that much of the humor is mined from how much stronger he is than everyone around him, and the rare instances when a challenge shows up (ex. Tao Pai Pai) are brief shockers.

The Piccolo arc is the first to consistently put him in an underdog role (until the climax). Even that’s short-lived as the following arc mines more tension early on from how much stronger he’s gotten, building up to a fairly even match with the second Piccolo. It’s tense, but not tense because Goku is ever presented as being completely out of his league. Rather, the fact that he’s about even with his (underhanded and evil) opponent is the hook.

For the following three arcs, Saiyan-Cell, he is decidedly the underdog again—though granted he doesn’t get to do much actual fighting in the Cell arc, once its plot has really gotten going. The Boo arc has many ups and downs that allow it to mine tension without ever really having Goku step in anywhere while on the back foot (his first plan against the final Majin Boo fails for other reasons), so that one’s a bit different—the portions where he would be truly out of his league he’s absent for, and they go to other characters.

So ... it depends on the storyline!

[LoganForkHands73]

Yeah, that slim chance that he might be the legendary warrior, while spending the entire fight being kicked in the skull by the supressed emperor of the universe, is why he is the underdog. He just has, or MAY have, that legend going on for him while Freeza has every card on the deck and is just playing around. And legend and all, it was still a close race.

Freeza being the top dog is a subtext for every commentary made by Kaio sama in regards of Goku and Freeza. "Don't you fucking dare challenge Freeza, he is out of everybody's league" screams that.

Yeah, exactly. There's a glimmer of hope because of Goku's big zenkai boost and all the talk of Super Saiyans (though it didn't do Vegeta any good), it becomes clearer as the fight progresses that his odds against the kind of power Freeza wields are less than sub-zero. He can only hope to hold out for a miracle.

That said, I'm not going to deny that there are many times where Goku isn't the underdog, I just don't consider the Freeza arc to be one of them. Most recently, you've got the Granola arc, where we have a lone rando seeking to avenge his cornflake race against a guy with Perfected Ultra Instinct in his deck and another guy who's just learned how to Hakai objects out of existence. Even though Granola has his huge power boost, he's still the underdog against the two godlike Saiyans. The same can be said of many Super arcs, as we know our protagonists are stronger than the gods and the tension comes from wondering how these new enemies can possibly threaten them.

[Vijay]

Was. Now with dbs, goddo, UI, MUI, whatnot doubt it

Audience today are mature to spot underdog theme frm a mile. So it wouldn't work today. Even if it does, the execution is what matters

Back in DB days, it seemed like a big feat for child to turn into this near omnipotent fighter.

It's successors however nother story

[The Accountant]

Although there are instances where Goku is, compared to the supporting cast of characters I wouldn't really title him an 'underdog' per se.

[SupremeKai25]

Saiyans by definition can't be underdogs, they're literally born with op Zenkai hax and op cells. At one point Kefla even says "Hurray for being born a Saiyan!". It's a privilege to be born a Saiyan, they're that OP.

Now, the Kais, Jiren's species, the Cereleans, the Namekians, the earthlings, etc. Now those are actual underdogs.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, that slim chance that he might be the legendary warrior, while spending the entire fight being kicked in the skull by the supressed emperor of the universe, is why he is the underdog. He just has, or MAY have, that legend going on for him while Freeza has every card on the deck and is just playing around. And legend and all, it was still a close race.

Freeza being the top dog is a subtext for every commentary made by Kaio sama in regards of Goku and Freeza. "Don't you fucking dare challenge Freeza, he is out of everybody's league" screams that.

Yeah, exactly. There's a glimmer of hope because of Goku's big zenkai boost and all the talk of Super Saiyans (though it didn't do Vegeta any good), it becomes clearer as the fight progresses that his odds against the kind of power Freeza wields are less than sub-zero. He can only hope to hold out for a miracle.

That said, I'm not going to deny that there are many times where Goku isn't the underdog, I just don't consider the Freeza arc to be one of them. Most recently, you've got the Granola arc, where we have a lone rando seeking to avenge his cornflake race against a guy with Perfected Ultra Instinct in his deck and another guy who's just learned how to Hakai objects out of existence. Even though Granola has his huge power boost, he's still the underdog against the two godlike Saiyans. The same can be said of many Super arcs, as we know our protagonists are stronger than the gods and the tension comes from wondering how these new enemies can possibly threaten them.

In DBS, I'd say he is mostly the top dog. In a role reversal, Freeza is the one who has to work is ass off to face Goku this time, vs Hit, Goku is the one forcing him to break his limits; Zamasu had to steal Goku's body and as MZ he still can't put Goku down without resorting to some scheme; Freeza brings Broly to challenge the reigning champions and Paragus is worried his son won't stand a chance. Even against Granola, we were wondering if Goku had surpassed the wish rather than expecting him to get stomped.

Jiren is the only time Goku becomes the underdog again, with him being stronger than a hakaishin and all. And in BoG, of course.

[Kodoshin]

Watching/reading the series through the first time I was not often impressed with the idea of Goku as an underdog. Certainly some instances of it though, but not all that frequently.

[MasenkoHA]

Saiyans by definition can't be underdogs, they're literally born with op Zenkai hax and op cells. At one point Kefla even says "Hurray for being born a Saiyan!". It's a privilege to be born a Saiyan, they're that OP.

Goku who was dismissed as worthless because of his low battle power and being born to a low class warrior is an underdog though at least in the Saiyan arc.

[SupremeKai25]

Saiyans by definition can't be underdogs, they're literally born with op Zenkai hax and op cells. At one point Kefla even says "Hurray for being born a Saiyan!". It's a privilege to be born a Saiyan, they're that OP.

Goku who was dismissed as worthless because of his low battle power and being born to a low class warrior is an underdog though at least in the Saiyan arc.

Well but you're proving my point are you not, because the only time he's an underdog is when he is against another Saiyan.

[MasenkoHA]

Saiyans by definition can't be underdogs, they're literally born with op Zenkai hax and op cells. At one point Kefla even says "Hurray for being born a Saiyan!". It's a privilege to be born a Saiyan, they're that OP.

Goku who was dismissed as worthless because of his low battle power and being born to a low class warrior is an underdog though at least in the Saiyan arc.

Well but you're proving my point are you not, because the only time he's an underdog is when he is against another Saiyan.

No, because your entire argument is “He can’t be an underdog because he’s a Saiyan”

I agree that Goku isn’t usually treated as an underdog but it has nothing to do with his Saiyan genes. In fact it was the revelation that he was a Saiyan and one of the weak ones that framed him as underdog for that story.


I’d also argue Vegeta became something of an underdog himself as the story progressed as he literally could not catch up to Goku.