Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

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Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:22 am

So, I was thinking the other day that if Toriyama had planned better then depicting Piccolo's reincarnated form as a child would have been a nice touch. Not only would Gokuu--now an adult--fighting a literal child form of the old man he fought in the previous story arc would be a cool contrast. The really cool part, though, would be that if Piccolo was actually depicted as still young in the Saiyan arc then he could serve as a big brother figure to Gohan, rather than giving his relationship and dynamic the feeling of an adult. This would of course lessen the whole kidnapping dynamic a bit but also allow for more development--and humor--as Piccolo adjusts to being 'Piccolo-niisan!' instead of 'Uncle Piccolo'. Furthermore, with JUMP being a title aimed at youth it would give youth different types of young characters for the audience to identify with.

It's really interesting to think about!
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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by Cipher » Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:27 am

So...

My fan idea is that if I could ever do a retelling of the series with changes, I would have Piccolo reincarnate himself again in the Saiyan arc, for a Piccolo 3.0 with yet another slightly different personality (bookish Piccolo, why not!), then again in the Cell arc with the final one growing more slowly (maybe each time he does it the reincarnation link grows weaker, so he can only do it so many times and the third time the new Piccolo grows at normal speed and requires more time to recover his memories), requiring the older Gohan to be a mentor to him in a role-reversal.

(Obviously that would change all sorts of things moving into the Freeza arc, so you can just have things wildly deviate starting there. That’s the twist. Also ... it’s a timeline split wherein Trunks went back to stop Dr. Gero in advance, so no #8 or Metallic in the RR arc, and the Cell arc is something else entirely.)

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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:36 am

Cipher wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:27 am So...

My fan idea is that if I could ever do a retelling of the series with changes, I would have Piccolo reincarnate himself again in the Saiyan arc, for a Piccolo 3.0 with yet another slightly different personality (bookish Piccolo, why not!), then again in the Cell arc with the final one growing more slowly and requiring the older Gohan to be a mentor to him in a role-reversal.

(Obviously that would change all sorts of things moving into the Freeza arc, so you can just have things wildly deviate starting there. That’s the twist. Also ... it’s a timeline split wherein Trunks went back to stop Dr. Gero in advance, so no #8 or Metallic in the RR arc, and the Cell arc is something else entirely.)
This sounds really fun to me! I love the idea of the role-reversal! It's got that 'rhythmic repetition' style that I find to be super cathartic.

Ooh, Gohan traveling with and protecting Piccolo's egg on Namek would be interesting! Like, he's brought to Namek in hopes of helping him hatch and he does so when it's time to fight Second Form Freeza! Gohan, Piccolo III, Kuririn and Vegeta working together to force Freeza to his fourth form would be a lot more fulfilling than just dropping the build of Gohan, Kuririn and Vegeta's stories up to that point by making them helpless in the battle with Freeza. That does beckon the question, though, of what happens with Freeza. I think I actually prefer the idea of actually bringing an end to the Freeza arc before Gokuu fights Freeza and making that a separate arc so that there's no sense of Gokuu stealing the thunder from the arc's protagonists up to that point.

Ooh, ooh! What if Cell absorbs Piccolo and that triggers his transformation into his Perfect form in place of Artificial Human #18? That sets up Piccolo to reincarnate again (and thus be Gohan's student in the Majin Buu arc) but also keeps us from fridging a female character. It's also a nice little 'breaking' of the rules by having someone other than #18 serve as the trigger for Cell's perfect form.
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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by Cipher » Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:46 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:36 am Ooh, Gohan traveling with and protecting Piccolo's egg on Namek would be interesting! Like, he's brought to Namek in hopes of helping him hatch and he does so when it's time to fight Second Form Freeza! Gohan, Piccolo III, Kuririn and Vegeta working together to force Freeza to his fourth form would be a lot more fulfilling than just dropping the build of Gohan, Kuririn and Vegeta's stories up to that point by making them helpless in the battle with Freeza. That does beckon the question, though, of what happens with Freeza. I think I actually prefer the idea of actually bringing an end to the Freeza arc before Gokuu fights Freeza and making that a separate arc so that there's no sense of Gokuu stealing the thunder from the arc's protagonists up to that point.

Ooh, ooh! What if Cell absorbs Piccolo and that triggers his transformation into his Perfect form in place of Artificial Human #18? That sets up Piccolo to reincarnate again (and thus be Gohan's student in the Majin Buu arc) but also keeps us from fridging a female character. It's also a nice little 'breaking' of the rules by having someone other than #18 serve as the trigger for Cell's perfect form.
I mean, not that I’ve thought this scenario through, but ...

They wouldn’t even need to go to Namek if Piccolo reincarnated himself. They could use the Earth Dragon Balls to revive everyone. Maybe Piccolo spat his egg way out in the distance somewhere so he’s just absent until the next timeskip while he’s growing.

More than likely Freeza would still go to Namek, but either fail to obtain or fail to use their DBs (killing everyone with the last one hidden, or being unable to summon the dragon in Namekian), then come to Earth a few months to a year later instead. Vegeta would probably show up ahead of time, having lost out on Namek, to seek a truce/try again to get the Earth DBs before Freeza. The whole scenario would be completely different.

Maybe teenage-sized Piccolo 3.0 shows up unexpectedly near the end of this Earth-set Freeza arc. Then he’s adult-sized in the following arc (I’m not saying it would have to be Towa and Mira instead of the androids and Cell, but maybe it could be...?), and Piccolo 4.0 is child-sized and being raised by teenage Gohan in the Boo arc.

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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:54 am

Cipher wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:46 am
I mean, not that I’ve thought this scenario through, but ...

They wouldn’t even need to go to Namek if Piccolo reincarnated himself. They could use the Earth Dragon Balls to revive everyone. Maybe Piccolo spat his egg way out in the distance somewhere so he’s just absent until the next timeskip while he’s growing.

More than likely Freeza would still go to Namek, but either fail to obtain or fail to use their DBs (killing everyone with the last one hidden, or being unable to summon the dragon in Namekian), then come to Earth a few months to a year later instead. Vegeta would probably show up ahead of time, having lost out on Namek, to seek a truce/try again to get the Earth DBs before Freeza. The whole scenario would be completely different.

Maybe teenage-sized Piccolo 3.0 shows up unexpectedly near the end of this Earth-set Freeza arc.
Oh jeez, I completely forgot that traveling to Namek would be unnecessary if he just reincarnated himself.

I feel like seeing a solo Vegeta on Namek arc would probably not happen in JUMP but if we're going for broke I think it'd be super awesome to see him on Namek out-witting Freeza until the arrival of the Gi'nyuu forces him to make a run for it to Earth to strike up a truce after the Grand Elder willingly stops holding on to life before Freeza can get his wish.

I'd be super-interested in seeing the character dynamics play out in this alternate universe. Gokuu and Gohan staying on Earth post-Saiyan arc, likely training together. I'd really like to see Gokuu and Gohan interacting in a variety of scenarios since we don't really get to see how their relationship changes much in the original comic between the Raditz and Vegeta battles. It also gives a breather between Gohan's interactions with Piccolo II and Piccolo III.
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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by Shaddy » Sat Jul 17, 2021 5:51 am

Uh, how do you make this work with the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai? Does Goku just kill that Piccolo? Would that one still be an adult?

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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:16 am

The entire dynamic of the 23rd Tournament would need to be retroactively reworked in order for your idea to function.
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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by Vijay » Sat Jul 17, 2021 7:31 am

Everythin's cool, but how d'ya propose child Piccolo face off against Raditz, Nappa & Vegeta 😏

At least as adult he provided some hope to good guys.

As child, he'd face same fate as Gohan in Saiyan Arc😂

Ofc the family, niisan dynamics would be cool & all, but it's war we're talking abt

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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:15 am

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:16 am The entire dynamic of the 23rd Tournament would need to be retroactively reworked in order for your idea to function.
Not really? Ma Junior shows up at the same height as Gokuu from the previous arc. That's the only change needed.
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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:45 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:15 am
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:16 am The entire dynamic of the 23rd Tournament would need to be retroactively reworked in order for your idea to function.
Not really? Ma Junior shows up at the same height as Gokuu from the previous arc. That's the only change needed.
From what we see in the tournament, Ma Jr was already matured as an adult. This was because he inherited King Piccolo's memories and life-energy.
Besides, you really think that the fight would have played out the same way if Ma Jr was half Goku's height?
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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by FoolsGil » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:05 am

I do think if Toriyama could do it all over again, he would consider it. He's always been a fan of proportionally small characters being large packages of power. and Gohan having a childhood friend instead of a mentor would have been an interesting dynamic, especially if in the Android Saga Piccolo and Kami still fuse, becoming the adult Piccolo we know now.

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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:46 am

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:45 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:15 am
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:16 am The entire dynamic of the 23rd Tournament would need to be retroactively reworked in order for your idea to function.
Not really? Ma Junior shows up at the same height as Gokuu from the previous arc. That's the only change needed.
From what we see in the tournament, Ma Jr was already matured as an adult. This was because he inherited King Piccolo's memories and life-energy.
Besides, you really think that the fight would have played out the same way if Ma Jr was half Goku's height?
Being just as strong but now harder to hit would probably make things harder for Gokuu.
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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:50 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:46 am
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:45 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:15 am

Not really? Ma Junior shows up at the same height as Gokuu from the previous arc. That's the only change needed.
From what we see in the tournament, Ma Jr was already matured as an adult. This was because he inherited King Piccolo's memories and life-energy.
Besides, you really think that the fight would have played out the same way if Ma Jr was half Goku's height?
Being just as strong but now harder to hit would probably make things harder for Gokuu.
That was exactly the point of my original statement. Instead of the fight being between two equals, it would be another David-Goliath fight like how Kid Goku fought King Piccolo.
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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by JulieYBM » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:53 am

PurestEvil wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:50 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:46 am
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:45 am

From what we see in the tournament, Ma Jr was already matured as an adult. This was because he inherited King Piccolo's memories and life-energy.
Besides, you really think that the fight would have played out the same way if Ma Jr was half Goku's height?
Being just as strong but now harder to hit would probably make things harder for Gokuu.
That was exactly the point of my original statement. Instead of the fight being between two equals, it would be another David-Goliath fight like how Kid Goku fought King Piccolo.
Okay, but that doesn't exactly mean changing the entire arc. It just makes Piccolo tougher to hit.
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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Jul 17, 2021 11:16 am

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:53 am
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:50 am
JulieYBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:46 am

Being just as strong but now harder to hit would probably make things harder for Gokuu.
That was exactly the point of my original statement. Instead of the fight being between two equals, it would be another David-Goliath fight like how Kid Goku fought King Piccolo.
Okay, but that doesn't exactly mean changing the entire arc. It just makes Piccolo tougher to hit.
Obviously the events of the arc would be the same, but the themes would be altered.
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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:14 pm

Reminds me of that Immortal DBZ video title (thanks for banning another great channel, Toei) -- "Our hero beats up a three-year-old." :lol:

Both the Kid Piccolo and Constantly-Reincarnating Piccolo ideas are interesting alternatives, but I think I prefer what we got. In the last tournament, Goku finally got a chance to fight another adult-sized character as a young adult, and Toriyama could flex some new dynamic fight choreography. Another climax featuring an adult character trying to fight a jumpy spider-monkey shorter than his waist would probably dampen the spectacle a little, though it would be thematically cool to have the tables turned on Goku like that. I guess Freeza could count as a consolation for anyone hankering for some of that Saiyan vs. Alien Dwarf sadism.

Image

The idea of Piccolo reincarnating before the Saiyan arc is kinda brilliant, though that would certainly throw the entire story in a totally different direction.

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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by Yuji » Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:19 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:15 am
PurestEvil wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:16 am The entire dynamic of the 23rd Tournament would need to be retroactively reworked in order for your idea to function.
Not really? Ma Junior shows up at the same height as Gokuu from the previous arc. That's the only change needed.
I don't think an adult Goku beating up on a child would sit well with Jump's editors.

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Re: Piccolo Should Have Been A Child in the Saiyan Arc

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:44 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 12:22 am So, I was thinking the other day that if Toriyama had planned better then depicting Piccolo's reincarnated form as a child would have been a nice touch.
Doesn’t seem to have anything to do with a lack of planning.
Not only would Gokuu--now an adult--fighting a literal child form of the old man he fought in the previous story arc would be a cool contrast
It makes more sense for Piccolo to want to be in his prime. Hence the eternal youth wish. Of course he would age rapidly to an adult before fighting Goku.


.
The really cool part, though, would be that if Piccolo was actually depicted as still young in the Saiyan arc then he could serve as a big brother figure to Gohan, rather than giving his relationship and dynamic the feeling of an adult.
The dynamic of Piccolo becoming a second father to the son of his worst enemy is much better. Goku killed Piccolo’s father (well technically ) and Piccolo eventually bonded with Goku’s son.
This would of course lessen the whole kidnapping dynamic
It doesn’t need to lessen. Piccolo was a bad guy. He even suggested he was going to make Gohan a Mazoku.
'. Furthermore, with JUMP being a title aimed at youth it would give youth different types of young characters for the audience to identify with.

It's really interesting to think about!
I never bought into the kids need kid protagonists to identify with mentality. I never preferred Robin over Batman, I didn’t like the Blue Turbo Power Ranger all that much, I usually found kid tagalong characters that seemed forced by studio mandates annoying.

I know Toei really really pushed Gohan as the cute kid appeal character to the point of wanting to name the series after him but I don’t think Toriyama was interested in such a thing.

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