Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by Marty Kirra » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:29 am

I absolutely think so, but it isn't anything new as many others have pointed out. It feels a bit goofy but this is where the franchise has been for most of its existence. I would love a reliance on actual techniques and strategy rather than transforming and over-powering the opponent. The DBS manga has been pretty good in that regard I feel.

I think what really makes it feel "stale" to me is that the process is usually the same. New transformation -> master the transformation, rinse and repeat. Due to the nature of this series with no actual end in sight, I suspect it's not a cycle we'll ever break out of. I just can't really imagine anything above Ultra Instinct unless we get the inevitable "Super Saiyan Ultra Instinct" form.

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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:03 pm

emperior wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:21 am Dragon Ball relies on transformations to visually convey an increase in power, and while I think sometimes it’s not necessary, it is still something that works. For example, we immediately know that Vegeta has now gotten stronger through the visuals. Would it really work as well if they just told us: oh, now Vegeta is using Destruction ki or something similar? I don’t know. It could, but it could also feel less impactful. Transformations help in this way.
Just for the record, I also remember some people complaining that Vegeta's training seemed unimpressive because all he was doing was just erasing rocks.

So while I think that creative uses of the Hakai technique would be interesting, in a series that works the way Dragon Ball works it would be difficult for that to make up for Goku's Ultra Instinct transformation, especially since the this form gives Goku more than just access to the technique (and tbh, I would argue that the technique being used alone would not look as impressive either, mainly due to Dragon Ball's nature), and this arc was trying to sell us the idea that Vegeta could surpass Goku with what he was learning.

So it would just look like Vegeta got the short end of the stick if all he could do was just the basic Hakai application. Plus, a new transformation doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility of different uses of the technique, so you can have both (and as others have pointed out, this is a transformation that has meaning for his character and prior build up)

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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by emperior » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:15 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:03 pm
emperior wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:21 am Dragon Ball relies on transformations to visually convey an increase in power, and while I think sometimes it’s not necessary, it is still something that works. For example, we immediately know that Vegeta has now gotten stronger through the visuals. Would it really work as well if they just told us: oh, now Vegeta is using Destruction ki or something similar? I don’t know. It could, but it could also feel less impactful. Transformations help in this way.
Just for the record, I also remember some people complaining that Vegeta's training seemed unimpressive because all he was doing was just erasing rocks.

So while I think that creative uses of the Hakai technique would be interesting, in a series that works the way Dragon Ball works it would be difficult for that to make up for Goku's Ultra Instinct transformation, especially since the this form gives Goku more than just access to the technique (and tbh, I would argue that the technique being used alone would not look as impressive either, mainly due to Dragon Ball's nature), and this arc was trying to sell us the idea that Vegeta could surpass Goku with what he was learning.

So it would just look like Vegeta got the short end of the stick if all he could do was just the basic Hakai application. Plus, a new transformation doesn't necessarily rule out the possibility of different uses of the technique, so you can have both (and as others have pointed out, this is a transformation that has meaning for his character and prior build up)
Exactly. It would feel weird if Vegeta didn’t get his unique transformation to accompany his new technique like Goku did for Ultra Instinct. Though it would also feel strange if Goku’s progression to master UI leads him to only fight in his base form after fully internalising the technique, while Vegeta keeps transforming. I wonder then if the God of Destruction form will also lead Vegeta to the path of making the state fully his own in his base state.
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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:52 pm

Transformations are a neutral concept. Most people won't mind new transformation, as long they fit into the context of the plot, compliment the characters that the transformation(s) apply to and are aesthetically distinct and appealing.

I think the only aspect of the franchise that has become totally reliant on transformation has been Dragon Ball Heroes. That is a series that only thrives but actively depends on new transformation and form as means of continuation. And that at least is understandable given that part of the franchise exists solely to push merchandise to young kids with disposable income.

Within the main series -- Dragon Ball, Z, GT and Super -- I'd say none of those entries are particularly reliant on transformations. A large portion of their stories progress with little to no use of new transformations and given how transformations represent a shift in the dynamic of a relative power struggle between any given characters, and with how Dragon Ball almost prides itself on series escalation, it would come to no surprise that when the stakes get higher and higher, that new forms would appear to represent that increase in scale.

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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by precita » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:00 pm

Super introduced like 5 new Super Saiyan forms or transformations in like 3 years of time.

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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by emperior » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:40 pm

precita wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:00 pm Super introduced like 5 new Super Saiyan forms or transformations in like 3 years of time.
Excluding the terrible Trunks’ rage form and Blue Evolution, I only count God, Blue, Rosé, Ultra Instinct, God of Destruction since 2013. 5 in 8 years. It’s not that bad. Super actually only introduced 3 of those, so 3 in 6 years. Or 5 in 6 years if we count the two I would rather not count which luckily never appeared in the manga.
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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:46 pm

emperior wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:40 pm
precita wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:00 pm Super introduced like 5 new Super Saiyan forms or transformations in like 3 years of time.
Excluding the terrible Trunks’ rage form and Blue Evolution, I only count God, Blue, Rosé, Ultra Instinct, God of Destruction since 2013. 5 in 8 years. It’s not that bad. Super actually only introduced 3 of those, so 3 in 6 years. Or 5 in 6 years if we count the two I would rather not count which luckily never appeared in the manga.
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution does technically appear in the manga, doesn’t it? That’s a major reason why I find it excessive to give Vegeta yet another new form so early. SSBE seemed like it was supposed to be the big Vegeta exclusive transformation that would help him keep up with Goku, but now they went and gave him another transformation.

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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:33 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:46 pm Super Saiyan Blue Evolution does technically appear in the manga, doesn’t it? That’s a major reason why I find it excessive to give Vegeta yet another new form so early. SSBE seemed like it was supposed to be the big Vegeta exclusive transformation that would help him keep up with Goku, but now they went and gave him another transformation.
In the manga, Super Saiyan Blue ''Evolution'' is not a full blown transformation. It's clearly Toyo's version of the form used in the anime, but it's just treated as a powered up version of Blue. The only noticeable change is the aura which has a fiery aspect.

V-JUMP just calls this form a ''unique mastery of Blue'' and Gohan refers to it as ''that Super Saiyan Blue form used during ToP'', so it's just more like a power up.
Honestly, I'm glad this isn't Vegeta's final form (and I like SSBE). It wasn't supposed to be a transformation to match him with Goku since in the same arc it was introduced into, it was left in the dust by Ultra Instinct. And particularly, the GoD form represents his path / character much better (and we don't even know if SSBE was in Toriyama's script tbh, it's confusing)

But we can say that SSBE's introduction was the beginning of the change, since it was from there that Vegeta decided to diverge paths with Goku, so it served its purpose. And this form was introduced 3 years ago, so Vegeta has been using it as his main form for 3 arcs/stories (4 if you consider Broly), it's quite a considerable amount of time at this point (especially for DB), I would not say ''early''.

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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:35 pm

As it's been since DBZ.

Saiyan arc: Kaioken
Frieza arc: Super Saiyan
Cell arc: Super Saiyan Grades and Super Saiyan 2
Buu arc: Super Saiyan 3, Ultimate Form

So this is nothing new. Let it be known that I think Vegeta's new form looks like garbage, BUT it would be disingenuous to claim the franchise became reliant on transformations ONLY NOW.

And if you look at the villain, they rely even more on transformations:

Vegeta: Oozaru transformation
Frieza: 4 forms
Cell: 3 forms, his purpose was becoming Perfect
Buu: Several forms he gets by absorbing people

This franchise literally spawned the meme "This isn't even my final form!".

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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:43 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:35 pm As it's been since DBZ.

Saiyan arc: Kaioken
Frieza arc: Super Saiyan
Cell arc: Super Saiyan Grades and Super Saiyan 2
Buu arc: Super Saiyan 3, Ultimate Form

So this is nothing new. Let it be known that I think Vegeta's new form looks like garbage, BUT it would be disingenuous to claim the franchise became reliant on transformations ONLY NOW.

And if you look at the villain, they rely even more on transformations:

Vegeta: Oozaru transformation
Frieza: 4 forms
Cell: 3 forms, his purpose was becoming Perfect
Buu: Several forms he gets by absorbing people

This franchise literally spawned the meme "This isn't even my final form!".
Kaioken isn’t really a transformation. A few of the games treat it as such, but I think counting it as one is a bit of a stretch. Same goes for Ultimate Gohan.

Then again, Toei and Bandai are pretty inconsistent when it comes to what they consider to be “forms.” The anime version of the Tournament of Power randomly treats Freeza’s “100%” power up as a transformation. I don’t even understand why they included that. I thought the idea was supposed to be that Freeza’s training made it easier for him to be at full power in his true form all the time. Why would 100% Freeza still be a thing at that point?
Last edited by WittyUsername on Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by precita » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:46 pm

It's much more blatant in Super.

The fact that Super Saiyan 2 wasn't even name dropped in the Cell saga says enough, and Goku/Vegeta getting Super Saiyan 2 was always brushed over and completely indistinguishable from the first form.

Now we have red hair, blue hair, silver hair, and if you count Rose and Rage and evolved blue...its gotten crazy.

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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:31 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:43 pmKaioken isn’t really a transformation. A few of the games treat it as such, but I think counting it as one is a bit of a stretch. Same goes for Ultimate Gohan.
Most of the games just make use of the transformation mechanics to activate Kaio-Ken, but it's not like they are treating it as a transformation. Unless stated so, which I don't think that many games do (I can't remember one that does right now).

As for Ultimate, it has always been a transformation in the anime and movies. Only in the manga we don't see Gohan transforming into it.
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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by WittyUsername » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:36 pm

Grimlock wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:31 pm
WittyUsername wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:43 pmKaioken isn’t really a transformation. A few of the games treat it as such, but I think counting it as one is a bit of a stretch. Same goes for Ultimate Gohan.
Most of the games just make use of the transformation mechanics to activate Kaio-Ken, but it's not like they are treating it as a transformation. Unless stated so, which I don't think that many games do (I can't remember one that does right now).

As for Ultimate, it has always been a transformation in the anime and movies. Only in the manga we don't see Gohan transforming into it.
The Budokai games treat Kaioken as a transformation, but they also treat Piccolo fusing with Nail and Kami as such.

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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:59 am

If Kaioken isn't a transformation then neither is SSB Evolved. It's literally just Blue but with thicker aura/hair/iris, how people can consider it a different form altogether is beyond me.

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Re: Has the franchise become too reliant on transformations?

Post by Trouser » Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:02 am

Yes, if it comes to Saiyans. They have too much transformations and I'm sure there will be more. Super Saiyan UI and Super Saiyan Caveman it's just a matter of time.
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