Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by Adamant » Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:17 pm

MyVisionity wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:09 pm I can't tell whether precita is joking or not.
He's an infamous troll who's been banned from more internet nerd communities than you've most likely been registered at, and it looks like he finally got to add this one to his list.
He has a tendency to reregister after getting banned in order to continue his trolling, so you probably haven't seen the last of him.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by Skar » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:01 pm

Adamant wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 5:17 pmHe's an infamous troll who's been banned from more internet nerd communities than you've most likely been registered at, and it looks like he finally got to add this one to his list.
He has a tendency to reregister after getting banned in order to continue his trolling, so you probably haven't seen the last of him.
They have had some questionable hot takes but I like to give people the benefit of the doubt since I don't know about their post history on other sites. I guess this was one hot take too many.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by theherodjl » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:22 pm

I imagine, I hope anyways, that Precita was speaking from the perspective of how death can be(not necessarily "is") inconsequential in DB but it probably would have been a better idea to specify that instead of just making a statement about how human life in general is totally expendable.
I mean, if that context didn't exist to begin with, it would be incredibly concerning to read or hear that anywhere else.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:29 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:24 pm Exactly, that's why I don't get why people complain about the Kanzenban ending and anime Super regressing Vegeta's character - he's gonna always be a Saiyan obsessed with being the strongest, he just has a healthier mindset and approach to it post-Buu.
I'm fine with Vegeta still keeping the ''overcoming Goku'' mindset that Toriyama seems to have kept in the Kanzenban version. I just think it didn't need to be so emphasized in Super. In the 2nd episode of the anime Vegeta says that he wants to surpas not only Goku, but everyone in the universe and be number 1. In CH 5 of the manga, Vegeta tells Goku that he's going to beat Beerus first. Both are things that could be said more often by him.

He can still occasionally mention his desire to keep wanting to surpass Goku, but I wish he wasn't that specific most of the time, focusing more on being the number 1 in particular than necessarily being above just Goku.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:13 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:29 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:24 pm Exactly, that's why I don't get why people complain about the Kanzenban ending and anime Super regressing Vegeta's character - he's gonna always be a Saiyan obsessed with being the strongest, he just has a healthier mindset and approach to it post-Buu.
I'm fine with Vegeta still keeping the ''overcoming Goku'' mindset that Toriyama seems to have kept in the Kanzenban version. I just think it didn't need to be so emphasized in Super. In the 2nd episode of the anime Vegeta says that he wants to surpas not only Goku, but everyone in the universe and be number 1. In CH 5 of the manga, Vegeta tells Goku that he's going to beat Beerus first. Both are things that could be said more often by him.

He can still occasionally mention his desire to keep wanting to surpass Goku, but I wish he wasn't that specific most of the time, focusing more on being the number 1 in particular than necessarily being above just Goku.
It makes me wonder, what if Vegeta succeeded and did become so strong that he had no rivals? Do you think he would start to regret it as life would be boring with no challenges and nothing to aspire to?
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Aug 05, 2021 2:19 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 1:13 pm It makes me wonder, what if Vegeta succeeded and did become so strong that he had no rivals? Do you think he would start to regret it as life would be boring with no challenges and nothing to aspire to?
Since he said he needed Goku to get stronger, I'm not sure how he would act with no one to push him to higher levels if he became indisputably the strongest in the universe, maybe in that sense he's different from Goku who would continue training regardless of that.

However I would still like to see that side of him be more highlighted (aiming to be the strongest / number 1 in the universe) rather than just the usual surpassing Goku. That's part of the reason why I appreciate the fact that he's been taking a different path lately

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by nhienphan2808 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:04 am

Vegeta still doesnt like Goku as a person, but he had admit Goku is the pinnacle of Saiyan power that he aims at since Android Saga. he had never cared that much about other foes that he fights and lost to that much. If we are talking strictly Toriyama's Vegeta, his life goal is Goku's power only. And "only" doesnt mean less, bc considering Toriyama did the Kanzenban ending in 2001 and then spent 4-5 or some years working on DBO till 2008, that could mean their third fight would be their last and to the death.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:20 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:09 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:06 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:03 am
Bruh, all them folks at the 25th tournament were Mr. Satan worshippers who think all that shit was tricks. The tournament was a glorified pro wrestling show by that point.
Murdering Pro Wrestling fans is valid so Vegeta probably was a hero all along.
Um yeah, I'm a wrestling fan, so um...you can kinda fuck off with that take.
He is right, you know how toxic the wrestling community can be :lol: (I'm also a fan).

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by goku the krump dancer » Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:24 pm

Jiren The Alpha wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 2:20 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:09 am
MasenkoHA wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 1:06 am

Murdering Pro Wrestling fans is valid so Vegeta probably was a hero all along.
Um yeah, I'm a wrestling fan, so um...you can kinda fuck off with that take.
He is right, you know how toxic the wrestling community can be :lol: (I'm also a fan).
No more toxic than fans of regular sports. I used to work at the Lincoln Financial Field ( where the Eagles play) and whenever the Giants or the Cowboys came to play you could cut the tension with a Kienzan.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:28 pm

If you ask me, Vegeta’s rivalry with Goku isn’t that interesting.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:35 pm

I actually like that Vegeta is so indifferent to Freeza in Res F and Paragus/Broly in their movie. It's hilarious when held up against what seems to be the common fan expectation that he'd have some big emotional reaction to meeting new Saiyans or getting the chance to get revenge against Freeza. To this day fans are still pissed off at Vegeta "not getting the win" over Freeza, when Vegeta himself was more indignant about Goku stealing back his "turn" than anything.

The only time Vegeta reacts with any emotion at all in either of those movies is being comically flustered at Goku's idiocy or at having to hold hands/fuse with him. I think that tells you everything you need to know about what Toriyama thinks of him.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by nhienphan2808 » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:48 pm

Kataphrut wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:35 pm I actually like that Vegeta is so indifferent to Freeza in Res F and Paragus/Broly in their movie. It's hilarious when held up against what seems to be the common fan expectation that he'd have some big emotional reaction to meeting new Saiyans or getting the chance to get revenge against Freeza. To this day fans are still pissed off at Vegeta "not getting the win" over Freeza, when Vegeta himself was more indignant about Goku stealing back his "turn" than anything.

The only time Vegeta reacts with any emotion at all in either of those movies is being comically flustered at Goku's idiocy or at having to hold hands/fuse with him. I think that tells you everything you need to know about what Toriyama thinks of him.
Agreed. He wasted NO time with Frieza at all. A large part of his fanbase still projects the victim angle onto him regarding Frieza, that's why they feel he was robbed somehow. When Goku is being Goku and teased him he even said "You are the one Frieza's after not me." Vegeta is more purposeful and cut throat than that, and i love him more for it.

Intense personal opinion time : 1. The panel when he ignored Freeza's order is the best thing that ever came out of Modern Dragon Ball. He KNEW. no less than Bardock does.
2. Toyotaro's Vegeta is SO bad and he's every lesser fan portrayals of him and an insult to Toriyama's Vegeta. I feel for Toriyama for having it to fix. I want him to fix it, i just worry about his age and time right now.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by Kataphrut » Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:54 am

nhienphan2808 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:48 pm
Kataphrut wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:35 pm I actually like that Vegeta is so indifferent to Freeza in Res F and Paragus/Broly in their movie. It's hilarious when held up against what seems to be the common fan expectation that he'd have some big emotional reaction to meeting new Saiyans or getting the chance to get revenge against Freeza. To this day fans are still pissed off at Vegeta "not getting the win" over Freeza, when Vegeta himself was more indignant about Goku stealing back his "turn" than anything.

The only time Vegeta reacts with any emotion at all in either of those movies is being comically flustered at Goku's idiocy or at having to hold hands/fuse with him. I think that tells you everything you need to know about what Toriyama thinks of him.
Agreed. He wasted NO time with Frieza at all. A large part of his fanbase still projects the victim angle onto him regarding Frieza, that's why they feel he was robbed somehow. When Goku is being Goku and teased him he even said "You are the one Frieza's after not me." Vegeta is more purposeful and cut throat than that, and i love him more for it.

Intense personal opinion time : 1. The panel when he ignored Freeza's order is the best thing that ever came out of Modern Dragon Ball. He KNEW. no less than Bardock does.
2. Toyotaro's Vegeta is SO bad and he's every lesser fan portrayals of him and an insult to Toriyama's Vegeta. I feel for Toriyama for having it to fix. I want him to fix it, i just worry about his age and time right now.
I like that Toyotaro's at least trying to give Vegeta some development, even if he's going about it in a very obvious way. If Vegeta's going to stick around as the number two protagonist in Super, he should at least have a reason to be there. That was the trap the anime version fell into- he was always there, but just going through the motions.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:24 am

nhienphan2808 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:48 pm Intense personal opinion time : 1. The panel when he ignored Freeza's order is the best thing that ever came out of Modern Dragon Ball. He KNEW. no less than Bardock does.
Wait what panel was that?

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by nhienphan2808 » Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:08 am

dbgtFO wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 4:24 am
nhienphan2808 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:48 pm Intense personal opinion time : 1. The panel when he ignored Freeza's order is the best thing that ever came out of Modern Dragon Ball. He KNEW. no less than Bardock does.
Wait what panel was that?
https://gyazo.com/abe95bb69d78bbc159ccaeeb567951f9

From Dragon Ball Minus. I know people disagree about the chapter being good but this one tidbit here for Vegeta is a hundred times better than the scenario in the TV Special where Vegeta had no choice over the matter. I LOVE that he was older, already a fighter and not just showing off with Saibamen, and knew about what Frieza would do even in his own way.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Aug 07, 2021 1:15 pm

nhienphan2808 wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:08 am https://gyazo.com/abe95bb69d78bbc159ccaeeb567951f9

From Dragon Ball Minus. I know people disagree about the chapter being good but this one tidbit here for Vegeta is a hundred times better than the scenario in the TV Special where Vegeta had no choice over the matter. I LOVE that he was older, already a fighter and not just showing off with Saibamen, and knew about what Frieza would do even in his own way.
Ah, ok. I just thought he was being a brat and it happened to work out for him, but fair enough.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by emperior » Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:23 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:25 pm
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:14 pm I think a better alternative would've been Vegeta staying dead and accepting his fate, because a single day of good behavior doesn't change things, but due to his help in saving the universe King Yama puts him on "Other World probation." Vegeta tells Goku not to wish him back until he's cleared. Could lead to a nice reunion moment in the epilogue.
Alternatively instead of Oob, Goku meets Vegeta’s 10 year old reincarnation in the epilogue (who obviously no longer remembers Goku and is now 100 hundred percent earthling). Goku takes off with Vegeta’s reincarnation to train him for a proper rematch he wanted since the end of the Saiyan arc.
That’s a very interesting idea but ultimately I feel like it could be a bit too dark for Dragon Ball to end with a fan-favourite character, who married one of the protagonists and even had a child, dying forever to then be reincarnated. Especially after having helped so much in the last fight.

Maybe Toriyama could have made it work in a more light-hearted way, but I am not too sure. Buu was a non-talkative character with no connections with the cast or the audience, so him being reincarnated wasn’t dark at all.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by Skar » Sat Aug 07, 2021 2:33 pm

nhienphan2808 wrote: Fri Aug 06, 2021 12:04 am Vegeta still doesnt like Goku as a person, but he had admit Goku is the pinnacle of Saiyan power that he aims at since Android Saga. he had never cared that much about other foes that he fights and lost to that much. If we are talking strictly Toriyama's Vegeta, his life goal is Goku's power only.
At the end of the Cell and Buu sagas, Goku and Vegeta were the second and third strongest so the only character Vegeta could strive to surpass was Gohan who wasn't interested in training. If Goku and Vegeta become the strongest mortals surpassing the GoDs by the end of DBS, it could still work for him only being interested in surpassing Goku since they both surpassed every other mortal along the way.

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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by theherodjl » Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:51 pm

When you think about it, we haven't anything about what ever happened to Cell, at least from Toriyama/Toyotaro anyways. Freeza has been confirmed as being too wicked & stubborn for reincarnation and Boo was obviously reincarnated into Oob...but what about Cell??? Is he possibly being reincarnated in hell as we speak or has already been the subject of the process and is somewhere on Earth or some other planet in the universe? Perhaps, he's not even actually dead? Just lying dormant within the Cell Jrs or enough of his biological matter remained from the various injuries he took(like his tail ripped off by 16) and dug underground?
It's interesting that we don't have anything definitive on him yet.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:52 pm

theherodjl wrote: Sat Aug 07, 2021 3:51 pm When you think about it, we haven't anything about what ever happened to Cell, at least from Toriyama/Toyotaro anyways. Freeza has been confirmed as being too wicked & stubborn for reincarnation and Boo was obviously reincarnated into Oob...but what about Cell??? Is he possibly being reincarnated in hell as we speak or has already been the subject of the process and is somewhere on Earth or some other planet in the universe? Perhaps, he's not even actually dead? Just lying dormant within the Cell Jrs or enough of his biological matter remained from the various injuries he took(like his tail ripped off by 16) and dug underground?
It's interesting that we don't have anything definitive on him yet.
I think it’s just a given he’s either still in hell or he’s been reincarnated as another being on earth with no memories of his past.

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