Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta

[nhienphan2808]

Vegeta Shipping in fandom has amassed so many fanarts and influence Super Anime and manga over these 20 years that fangirls who self insert into Bulma still think they are reading their Vegeta rather than Toriyama canon Vegeta. Toriyama is adamant on stressing Goku's lust for fighting, coupled with how Vegeta could settle down with family, and so people mistake that for "Vegeta is actually less Saiyan" than Goku. False. He's actually still the most brutal of all of them, he just know how to look high and mighty doing it. Majin Vegeta is honestly him. It's not that he TRIES to lie to himself and threw away his family and pretend he's tough" it's the other way around: "he HAD tried to be less brutal and get used to Earth, but he couldnt at that point of his life"

[jjgp1112]

Vegeta Shipping in fandom has amassed so many fanarts and influence Super Anime and manga over these 20 years that fangirls who self insert into Bulma still think they are reading their Vegeta rather than Toriyama canon Vegeta. Toriyama is adamant on stressing Goku's lust for fighting, coupled with how Vegeta could settle down with family, and so people mistake that for "Vegeta is actually less Saiyan" than Goku. False. He's actually still the most brutal of all of them, he just know how to look high and mighty doing it. Majin Vegeta is honestly him. It's not that he TRIES to lie to himself and threw away his family and pretend he's tough" it's the other way around: "he HAD tried to be less brutal and get used to Earth, but he couldnt at that point of his life"

Yup, this is really it, combined with said legion of fangirls taking the dub's softer "Frieza made me what I am" bullshit and running with it.

[TobyS]

This makes me wonder about Porunga's decision to revive Vegeta at the climax of the Boo arc. I'm sure pre-posession Spopovich wasn't anywhere near as bad as Vegeta but its likely that neither he nor Yamu got brought back, yet up until the wish was made to bring everyone back except for the "really bad ones" everyone "In-universe" thought Vegeta was still bound for Hell once Boo was defeated.

Porunga knew Vegeta was one of the good guys. I think the only one who thought Vegeta was Hellbound was Vegeta himself. Anyone else who may have thought that was just plain wrong. It's clear that Vegeta's days of evil were behind him by the time the Boo saga had started. It didn't matter what he had done previously. What mattered was that he persevered in spite of it and was fighting on the side of good by the time the final battle rolled around.

Porunga only knows he's not one of the “REALLY” bad ones.” he could still be one of the “quite bad ones” of genocidal vegeta was brought back Spoc and Yamu without the majin seal almost certainly were. We know the pilaf gang were and they tried to cook Goku and co to death under a sunroof.

[BWri]

Spoiler:

One thing I've noticed about Vegeta throughout the Dragon Ball revival is that Vegeta is consistently written as more ruthless, pragmatic and morally ambiguous under Toriyama's direct pen than Toyotaro's and Toei's writing staff. While the main characters being "heroed-up" for the animated adaptations is certainly nothing new, the conversation primarily focuses on Goku's differences in characterisation. Vegeta certainly gets the second most, but this is one aspect that seems to get overlooked.



First off, let's discuss Resurrection 'F'. There's the infamous scene of Vegeta seemingly being almost tempted by Freeza's offer of making him Supreme Commander of the Freeza Force, or whatever the title was. While Vegeta quickly makes it clear that he fully intends to turn Freeza into mincemeat, that moment of hesitation and him ominously approaching Goku, combined with the prior scene of him suddenly attacking Goku mid-fight, would almost give a less-initiated audience some pause. He also justifies his relationship to Goku rather cruelly, saying that he only keeps the moron around because he needs him to get stronger, and later claims that he'd rather die than team up with Goku again. Yeah yeah, Vegeta's a yandere, but still... Harsh.

Then he dispatches Freeza swiftly, with no wasted movement or unnecessary showboating. He just goes straight for the kill.

This contrasts with the anime adaptation, which sees Vegeta refuse to court Freeza's ridiculous job offer and play around with Freeza in a slightly more Goku-esque fashion. The one counter to this would probably be him instantly killing Ginyu with a sadistic smile, but considering Ginyu's annoying signature ability (plus the fact that, ya know, he's not s'posed to be in this story), it was a strategically justified move.



Next, we move to Super: Broly. Vegeta comes off as a real asshole in this movie, though he does spit facts occasionally. We're first introduced to him angrily chewing out Goku for being dumb enough to trust Freeza, with the events of the Tournament of Power having evidently done nothing to improve Vegeta's opinion of Freeza in the slightest. Vegeta starts borderline frothing at the mouth by the end of his rant, enough that Goku gets offended by it for once.

That's the tip of the iceberg. Well, there is a lot of ice in this movie. When confronted by the existence of yet more Saiyans that survived the genocide, how does the proud Prince of All Saiyans react? With curiosity? Gratitude? Disbelief? Nope. He once again reiterates that he doesn't care about the fate of the Saiyans and wants nothing to do with them. Oh, those guys are Saiyans? Yeah, whatever, we've already met Tarble.

While he finds some enjoyment in his fight with Broly, as soon as Broly starts offering significant resistance, Vegeta goes Super Saiyan God and uses excessive force seemingly with the intent to kill, which Goku loudly objects to. Vegeta's instinct to finish Broly off was ultimately a wise move, since the barbarian's ridiculously huge growth over the course of a ten minute melee represented a dangerous threat, but Vegeta could've gone straight to Blue and killed Broly quickly and painlessly if that were the case. Contrast this with Goku's perceptive, compassionate approach which nearly ends the fight. Vegeta's killer instinct seems to transfer to Gogeta, who also shows a barbaric side with no mercy or empathy.

Gogeta naturally leads us to the Fusion Dance practice scene, which many fans take issue with as it presents Vegeta as babyishly resistant to the idea of fusing, mainly because he finds the poses ridiculous, the same justification he gave against doing it way back in the Buu arc. Still one of the funniest scenes in the movie, but I can see where they're coming from. At this point in the Super sub-franchise, Vegeta has shown willingness to fuse when needed (with some resistance, and so long as it doesn't involve the stupid poses) and generally humiliate himself (the Bingo Dance) for the greater good. GT famously saw Vegeta suggest the idea of Fusion to Goku, showing his character growth. Vegeta was also willing to fuse to beat Janemba. Neither story may be "canon" to the current series, but they showed audiences Vegeta's mature side as Super frequently does, so seeing him moan about Fusion now of all times understandably comes off as an annoying regression to some.



All this leads me to believe that Toriyama has a very specific conception of Vegeta's character when writing him. Whereas other writers like showing Vegeta's growth and compassion, Toriyama seems to like emphasising Vegeta's residual mercilessness and selfishness from his Badman days. Toriyama's Vegeta may be a better guy than he was, but he'll still murk your arse without a second's hesitation, and he's less willing to drag fights out than Goku if they can be ended quickly. As has been explained in interviews, Toriyama was always ambivalent to the idea of Goku and Vegeta fusing again after the Buu arc, as he believes their clashing personalities wouldn't allow for it. It was only thanks to some pressure from Toyotaro that he relented in bringing back Vegetto, and seemingly again with Gogeta (that time from his editors). Like it or lump it, Fusion is one of the biggest draws of the franchise and as the saying goes: money talks, bullshit walks.

Even Toyotaro, Toriyama's closest collaborator in the Super project, seems to give Vegeta more of a tepid, compassionate personality, which is more evident in his personal arc throughout the war against Moro, though we can still only speculate how much each of them contributes to the writing. With rumours that the currently ongoing Granola arc has had more story involvement from Toriyama than the last, it seems we're starting to see a more ruthless Vegeta resurface as he fully embraces the path of the Hakaishin. Will the trend continue with the upcoming movie, which is supposedly Toriyama's most personal project yet?...

Spoiler:

(Now I'm posting this immediately as I already lost one huge-ass topic draft about Jiren and I'm not making the same error in judgment again)

I usually don't mind this dichotomy with Vegeta as it shows his instincts from many years of being an enslaved mercenary are still intact and he's trying to fight those instincts and urges. To me, that's far more interesting than a swift change of character. So to me Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta & Toei/Toyataro's Piccolo-esque Mature Vegeta have a weird sort of synergy that typically works for me as long as he's not reverting to annoying rival guy.

Where this loses me, is with Vegeta's treatment of Paragus and Broly. I spoke of this before, when DBS: Broly was released, but to me, Vegeta's apathy in the Broly movie feels out of character. How can the guy who cares so much for Saiyans in another universe not give a single shit about those in his own?

Because unlike U6 the ones in his universe have all been total pricks. Paragus ain't cabba. His treatment of cabba was as much circumstancial as it was a character change for Geets.

I'd vibe with you there, but he had only known Cabba for at most half a day - not even that really. He didn't even give Broly a chance and he's no different than Kale. Didn't even try. All that mercy, curiosity, and compassion, burned away when dealing with the remnants of his own people.

I like to think that Vegeta's non-reaction to Broly and Paragus was mostly apathy from having met many other new Saiyans at this point, combined with discomfort at being confronted with his past again. I think a hipster part of Vegeta likes being one of the last Saiyans as it gives him a rare legacy to uphold, but he dislikes confronting the reality that the Saiyans were ultimately a lowly barbaric race with nothing special going for them (besides the rare few like himself who tapped into their full potential). Universe 6's Saiyans represents a nostalgic, ideal version of his culture, whereas Broly and Paragus represent another reminder of everything Vegeta would rather forget about the Saiyans: their ugly primate nature, their self-destructive caste system and their subjugation under Freeza.

This is oddly compelling. It's really the same as what TobyS above says, but the details add a lot more context to it, many layers too. This would be really interesting if it were true as the flaws are centered on Vegeta's character rather than the narrative itself. Great interpretation!

[nhienphan2808]

I like to think that Vegeta's non-reaction to Broly and Paragus was mostly apathy from having met many other new Saiyans at this point, combined with discomfort at being confronted with his past again. I think a hipster part of Vegeta likes being one of the last Saiyans as it gives him a rare legacy to uphold, but he dislikes confronting the reality that the Saiyans were ultimately a lowly barbaric race with nothing special going for them (besides the rare few like himself who tapped into their full potential). Universe 6's Saiyans represents a nostalgic, ideal version of his culture, whereas Broly and Paragus represent another reminder of everything Vegeta would rather forget about the Saiyans: their ugly primate nature, their self-destructive caste system and their subjugation under Freeza.

This is actually very good and valid and true to Vegeta's character i think. Especially considering the big bads in Z (i dont care about Suoer) are actually different Vegeta editions: Saiyan, Lizard and Cockroach, and Pink Mutant Saiyan. Vegeta made those personal to himself because he internalize a LOT. He killed Nappa because he wanted to show Goku that he's not like Nappa and Raditz, and any other foe, for example Frieza who made people fight for him . And as other Saiyans, including Goku, cant match his ideals about them and about HIMSELF, he hated them too.

[TobyS]

Paragus shows up in full freeza force gear with Freeza and Broly is assumedly silently complicit. He shouldn't treat them any differently then he did appule.

Cabba showed he has about as much human value as the the dragon team guys.

[MyVisionity]

Porunga knew Vegeta was one of the good guys. I think the only one who thought Vegeta was Hellbound was Vegeta himself. Anyone else who may have thought that was just plain wrong. It's clear that Vegeta's days of evil were behind him by the time the Boo saga had started. It didn't matter what he had done previously. What mattered was that he persevered in spite of it and was fighting on the side of good by the time the final battle rolled around.

Just days before being resurrected he killed hundreds if not thousands to get into a pissing contest.

Like I said, his days of evil were behind him at that point. Porunga knew his heart. Vegeta only did those things to get Goku to fight him. He was no longer one of the "really bad people", and he proved it by sacrificing himself against Majin Boo and then by returning to Earth and fighting in the final battle.

[Adamant]

When Vegeta was revived as "one of the good guys", it was directly after he had
a) willingly stepped away from his fight againt Goku that meant so much to him he had accepted Bobbidy's offer to get in order to kill Boo, for no reason other than to protect those he'd put at risk
b) given his life to stop Boo even after being told he'd never meet Goku in the afterlife, for no reason other than to protect those he'd put at risk
c) willingly put his entire existense at risk by going back to Earth to take on Boo again, for no reason other than to protect those he'd put at risk

He'd sacrificed everything he could possibly sacrifice just to protect others, that's more than most "good people" would be willing to do.

[ABED]

That's like committing cold blooded murder then turning to Jesus the next day. That doesn't wipe away the sin.

Good for Vegeta, he tried to make up for what he caused. That doesn't make him a good person. Honestly the more fitting ending would for him to wind up in Hell after helping save the universe against Buu, but being good with it because he acknowledges for once in his life that he deserves punishment for causing so much death and misery.

[Brodes]

That's like committing cold blooded murder then turning to Jesus the next day. That doesn't wipe away the sin.

Good for Vegeta, he tried to make up for what he caused. That doesn't make him a good person. Honestly the more fitting ending would for him to wind up in Hell after helping save the universe against Buu, but being good with it because he acknowledges for once in his life that he deserves punishment for causing so much death and misery.

I thought a repentance and accepting of God and Jesus on your death bed could wipe away all sin?

I mean, either way Vegeta 100% should not have been revived by Porunga at the end of the Buu saga and should have stayed dead. He was a vicious, violent, narcissistic, mass murderer who should have been found distinctly lacking when the scales were looked at and booted to hell.

[MyVisionity]

Vegeta is most definitely a good person. Porunga understood this. His past sins shouldn't determine whether or not he is wished back to life.

I suppose you could make the argument that he should go to Hell, given his past, but even then I'm not so sure if it's that simple.

Also I wouldn't be so quick to apply Judeo-Christian standards to everything.

[Brodes]

Vegeta is most definitely a good person. Porunga understood this. His past sins shouldn't determine whether or not he is wished back to life.

I suppose you could make the argument that he should go to Hell, given his past, but even then I'm not so sure if it's that simple.

Also I wouldn't be so quick to apply Judeo-Christian standards to everything.

How is Vegeta most definitely a good person? And please, try and answer this question without using any of you're asinine "but Nappa/Freeza/Whoever actually did the killing", or "we can never hold a martial artist to moral/logic standards" arguments.

Hugging his son and then blowing himself up doesn't make up for the hundreds he killed that day at the tournament let alone anything else, for example.

[MyVisionity]

How is Vegeta most definitely a good person?

Hugging his son and then blowing himself up doesn't make up for the hundreds he killed that day at the tournament let alone anything else, for example.

For all of the reasons that Adamant mentioned above is why he's a good person. He *used* to be a bad person, but by the time the Boo saga came around this was no longer the case. Even when he killed everyone at the Budoukai, he was a good person. Once he made all of his sacrifices it became clear as day.

It's not about making up for anything or balancing any scales. The numbers of victims and years of evil don't mean a damn thing when it comes down to Vegeta being a good person. That's about his heart and soul, and ultimately why Porunga revived him.

[ABED]

And within the Buu arc, he kills hundreds which is not the actions of a good person.

You have a really messed up sense of ethics. Evil is within his heart. That's why he does the things he does. Even though the few white spots are significant, you can't make up for the sheer amount of evil he's done. At worst he can stop the bleeding.

He'd sacrificed everything he could possibly sacrifice just to protect others, that's more than most "good people" would be willing to do.

But those good people would also not be willing participants in genocide.

[MasenkoHA]

. Even when he killed everyone at the Budoukai, he was a good person.

I want you to say this again. But very very slowly.

[Skar]

I've wondered how the series would play out if Porunga didn't consider Vegeta good enough to revive. It was the final saga of the manga so not much would've changed there aside from him not appearing in EoZ. In GT, maybe Baby has to possess Gohan since he would be the strongest Saiyan after Goku and no Gogeta against Omega Shenron so Goku goes for the Spirit Bomb while the others distract him. DBS would have the biggest changes since Vegeta had a role in every arc.

[jjgp1112]

I think a better alternative would've been Vegeta staying dead and accepting his fate, because a single day of good behavior doesn't change things, but due to his help in saving the universe King Yama puts him on "Other World probation" for five years where he gets to keepp his body but has to work for the Other World's staff and stay on good behavior. Vegeta tells Goku not to wish him back until he's cleared. Could lead to a nice reunion moment in the epilogue.

[MyVisionity]

And within the Buu arc, he kills hundreds which is not the actions of a good person.

Good people can do terrible things. It doesn't necessarily make them terrible people. I wouldn't automatically assume that someone is evil because they killed hundreds of people.

Evil is within his heart. That's why he does the things he does. Even though the few white spots are significant, you can't make up for the sheer amount of evil he's done. At worst he can stop the bleeding.

Just because someone has evil within their heart does not mean that they are not good people. I think that the good in Vegeta's heart outweighs the evil in the Boo saga.

He doesn't have to make up for the past to prove that he is good. His past evils do not stop him from being a good person, genocide or no. Porunga was not judging him based off of his past, only his present and his heart.

[jjgp1112]

And within the Buu arc, he kills hundreds which is not the actions of a good person.

Good people can do terrible things. It doesn't necessarily make them terrible people. I wouldn't automatically assume that someone is evil because they killed hundreds of people.

[MasenkoHA]

I think a better alternative would've been Vegeta staying dead and accepting his fate, because a single day of good behavior doesn't change things, but due to his help in saving the universe King Yama puts him on "Other World probation." Vegeta tells Goku not to wish him back until he's cleared. Could lead to a nice reunion moment in the epilogue.

Alternatively instead of Oob, Goku meets Vegeta’s 10 year old reincarnation in the epilogue (who obviously no longer remembers Goku and is now 100 hundred percent earthling). Goku takes off with Vegeta’s reincarnation to train him for a proper rematch he wanted since the end of the Saiyan arc.