Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
Vegeta Shipping in fandom has amassed so many fanarts and influence Super Anime and manga over these 20 years that fangirls who self insert into Bulma still think they are reading their Vegeta rather than Toriyama canon Vegeta. Toriyama is adamant on stressing Goku's lust for fighting, coupled with how Vegeta could settle down with family, and so people mistake that for "Vegeta is actually less Saiyan" than Goku. False. He's actually still the most brutal of all of them, he just know how to look high and mighty doing it. Majin Vegeta is honestly him. It's not that he TRIES to lie to himself and threw away his family and pretend he's tough" it's the other way around: "he HAD tried to be less brutal and get used to Earth, but he couldnt at that point of his life"
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.
Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
Yup, this is really it, combined with said legion of fangirls taking the dub's softer "Frieza made me what I am" bullshit and running with it.nhienphan2808 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 8:57 am Vegeta Shipping in fandom has amassed so many fanarts and influence Super Anime and manga over these 20 years that fangirls who self insert into Bulma still think they are reading their Vegeta rather than Toriyama canon Vegeta. Toriyama is adamant on stressing Goku's lust for fighting, coupled with how Vegeta could settle down with family, and so people mistake that for "Vegeta is actually less Saiyan" than Goku. False. He's actually still the most brutal of all of them, he just know how to look high and mighty doing it. Majin Vegeta is honestly him. It's not that he TRIES to lie to himself and threw away his family and pretend he's tough" it's the other way around: "he HAD tried to be less brutal and get used to Earth, but he couldnt at that point of his life"
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
Porunga only knows he's not one of the “REALLY” bad ones.” he could still be one of the “quite bad ones” of genocidal vegeta was brought back Spoc and Yamu without the majin seal almost certainly were. We know the pilaf gang were and they tried to cook Goku and co to death under a sunroof.MyVisionity wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:53 amPorunga knew Vegeta was one of the good guys. I think the only one who thought Vegeta was Hellbound was Vegeta himself. Anyone else who may have thought that was just plain wrong. It's clear that Vegeta's days of evil were behind him by the time the Boo saga had started. It didn't matter what he had done previously. What mattered was that he persevered in spite of it and was fighting on the side of good by the time the final battle rolled around.goku the krump dancer wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:03 pm This makes me wonder about Porunga's decision to revive Vegeta at the climax of the Boo arc. I'm sure pre-posession Spopovich wasn't anywhere near as bad as Vegeta but its likely that neither he nor Yamu got brought back, yet up until the wish was made to bring everyone back except for the "really bad ones" everyone "In-universe" thought Vegeta was still bound for Hell once Boo was defeated.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
I'd vibe with you there, but he had only known Cabba for at most half a day - not even that really. He didn't even give Broly a chance and he's no different than Kale. Didn't even try. All that mercy, curiosity, and compassion, burned away when dealing with the remnants of his own people.TobyS wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:49 amBecause unlike U6 the ones in his universe have all been total pricks. Paragus ain't cabba. His treatment of cabba was as much circumstancial as it was a character change for Geets.BWri wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:53 pmI usually don't mind this dichotomy with Vegeta as it shows his instincts from many years of being an enslaved mercenary are still intact and he's trying to fight those instincts and urges. To me, that's far more interesting than a swift change of character. So to me Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta & Toei/Toyataro's Piccolo-esque Mature Vegeta have a weird sort of synergy that typically works for me as long as he's not reverting to annoying rival guy.Spoiler:
Where this loses me, is with Vegeta's treatment of Paragus and Broly. I spoke of this before, when DBS: Broly was released, but to me, Vegeta's apathy in the Broly movie feels out of character. How can the guy who cares so much for Saiyans in another universe not give a single shit about those in his own?
This is oddly compelling. It's really the same as what TobyS above says, but the details add a lot more context to it, many layers too. This would be really interesting if it were true as the flaws are centered on Vegeta's character rather than the narrative itself. Great interpretation!LoganForkHands73 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:46 pm I like to think that Vegeta's non-reaction to Broly and Paragus was mostly apathy from having met many other new Saiyans at this point, combined with discomfort at being confronted with his past again. I think a hipster part of Vegeta likes being one of the last Saiyans as it gives him a rare legacy to uphold, but he dislikes confronting the reality that the Saiyans were ultimately a lowly barbaric race with nothing special going for them (besides the rare few like himself who tapped into their full potential). Universe 6's Saiyans represents a nostalgic, ideal version of his culture, whereas Broly and Paragus represent another reminder of everything Vegeta would rather forget about the Saiyans: their ugly primate nature, their self-destructive caste system and their subjugation under Freeza.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
This is actually very good and valid and true to Vegeta's character i think. Especially considering the big bads in Z (i dont care about Suoer) are actually different Vegeta editions: Saiyan, Lizard and Cockroach, and Pink Mutant Saiyan. Vegeta made those personal to himself because he internalize a LOT. He killed Nappa because he wanted to show Goku that he's not like Nappa and Raditz, and any other foe, for example Frieza who made people fight for him . And as other Saiyans, including Goku, cant match his ideals about them and about HIMSELF, he hated them too.I like to think that Vegeta's non-reaction to Broly and Paragus was mostly apathy from having met many other new Saiyans at this point, combined with discomfort at being confronted with his past again. I think a hipster part of Vegeta likes being one of the last Saiyans as it gives him a rare legacy to uphold, but he dislikes confronting the reality that the Saiyans were ultimately a lowly barbaric race with nothing special going for them (besides the rare few like himself who tapped into their full potential). Universe 6's Saiyans represents a nostalgic, ideal version of his culture, whereas Broly and Paragus represent another reminder of everything Vegeta would rather forget about the Saiyans: their ugly primate nature, their self-destructive caste system and their subjugation under Freeza.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.
Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
Paragus shows up in full freeza force gear with Freeza and Broly is assumedly silently complicit. He shouldn't treat them any differently then he did appule.
Cabba showed he has about as much human value as the the dragon team guys.
Cabba showed he has about as much human value as the the dragon team guys.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
Like I said, his days of evil were behind him at that point. Porunga knew his heart. Vegeta only did those things to get Goku to fight him. He was no longer one of the "really bad people", and he proved it by sacrificing himself against Majin Boo and then by returning to Earth and fighting in the final battle.ABED wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:07 amJust days before being resurrected he killed hundreds if not thousands to get into a pissing contest.MyVisionity wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:53 am Porunga knew Vegeta was one of the good guys. I think the only one who thought Vegeta was Hellbound was Vegeta himself. Anyone else who may have thought that was just plain wrong. It's clear that Vegeta's days of evil were behind him by the time the Boo saga had started. It didn't matter what he had done previously. What mattered was that he persevered in spite of it and was fighting on the side of good by the time the final battle rolled around.
Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
When Vegeta was revived as "one of the good guys", it was directly after he had
a) willingly stepped away from his fight againt Goku that meant so much to him he had accepted Bobbidy's offer to get in order to kill Boo, for no reason other than to protect those he'd put at risk
b) given his life to stop Boo even after being told he'd never meet Goku in the afterlife, for no reason other than to protect those he'd put at risk
c) willingly put his entire existense at risk by going back to Earth to take on Boo again, for no reason other than to protect those he'd put at risk
He'd sacrificed everything he could possibly sacrifice just to protect others, that's more than most "good people" would be willing to do.
a) willingly stepped away from his fight againt Goku that meant so much to him he had accepted Bobbidy's offer to get in order to kill Boo, for no reason other than to protect those he'd put at risk
b) given his life to stop Boo even after being told he'd never meet Goku in the afterlife, for no reason other than to protect those he'd put at risk
c) willingly put his entire existense at risk by going back to Earth to take on Boo again, for no reason other than to protect those he'd put at risk
He'd sacrificed everything he could possibly sacrifice just to protect others, that's more than most "good people" would be willing to do.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
That's like committing cold blooded murder then turning to Jesus the next day. That doesn't wipe away the sin.
Good for Vegeta, he tried to make up for what he caused. That doesn't make him a good person. Honestly the more fitting ending would for him to wind up in Hell after helping save the universe against Buu, but being good with it because he acknowledges for once in his life that he deserves punishment for causing so much death and misery.
Good for Vegeta, he tried to make up for what he caused. That doesn't make him a good person. Honestly the more fitting ending would for him to wind up in Hell after helping save the universe against Buu, but being good with it because he acknowledges for once in his life that he deserves punishment for causing so much death and misery.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
I thought a repentance and accepting of God and Jesus on your death bed could wipe away all sin?ABED wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 5:55 pm That's like committing cold blooded murder then turning to Jesus the next day. That doesn't wipe away the sin.
Good for Vegeta, he tried to make up for what he caused. That doesn't make him a good person. Honestly the more fitting ending would for him to wind up in Hell after helping save the universe against Buu, but being good with it because he acknowledges for once in his life that he deserves punishment for causing so much death and misery.
I mean, either way Vegeta 100% should not have been revived by Porunga at the end of the Buu saga and should have stayed dead. He was a vicious, violent, narcissistic, mass murderer who should have been found distinctly lacking when the scales were looked at and booted to hell.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
Vegeta is most definitely a good person. Porunga understood this. His past sins shouldn't determine whether or not he is wished back to life.
I suppose you could make the argument that he should go to Hell, given his past, but even then I'm not so sure if it's that simple.
Also I wouldn't be so quick to apply Judeo-Christian standards to everything.
I suppose you could make the argument that he should go to Hell, given his past, but even then I'm not so sure if it's that simple.
Also I wouldn't be so quick to apply Judeo-Christian standards to everything.
Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
How is Vegeta most definitely a good person? And please, try and answer this question without using any of you're asinine "but Nappa/Freeza/Whoever actually did the killing", or "we can never hold a martial artist to moral/logic standards" arguments.MyVisionity wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 7:22 pm Vegeta is most definitely a good person. Porunga understood this. His past sins shouldn't determine whether or not he is wished back to life.
I suppose you could make the argument that he should go to Hell, given his past, but even then I'm not so sure if it's that simple.
Also I wouldn't be so quick to apply Judeo-Christian standards to everything.
Hugging his son and then blowing himself up doesn't make up for the hundreds he killed that day at the tournament let alone anything else, for example.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
For all of the reasons that Adamant mentioned above is why he's a good person. He *used* to be a bad person, but by the time the Boo saga came around this was no longer the case. Even when he killed everyone at the Budoukai, he was a good person. Once he made all of his sacrifices it became clear as day.
It's not about making up for anything or balancing any scales. The numbers of victims and years of evil don't mean a damn thing when it comes down to Vegeta being a good person. That's about his heart and soul, and ultimately why Porunga revived him.
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
And within the Buu arc, he kills hundreds which is not the actions of a good person.
You have a really messed up sense of ethics. Evil is within his heart. That's why he does the things he does. Even though the few white spots are significant, you can't make up for the sheer amount of evil he's done. At worst he can stop the bleeding.
You have a really messed up sense of ethics. Evil is within his heart. That's why he does the things he does. Even though the few white spots are significant, you can't make up for the sheer amount of evil he's done. At worst he can stop the bleeding.
But those good people would also not be willing participants in genocide.He'd sacrificed everything he could possibly sacrifice just to protect others, that's more than most "good people" would be willing to do.
Last edited by ABED on Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.
Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
I want you to say this again. But very very slowly.MyVisionity wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:00 pm. Even when he killed everyone at the Budoukai, he was a good person.
Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
I've wondered how the series would play out if Porunga didn't consider Vegeta good enough to revive. It was the final saga of the manga so not much would've changed there aside from him not appearing in EoZ. In GT, maybe Baby has to possess Gohan since he would be the strongest Saiyan after Goku and no Gogeta against Omega Shenron so Goku goes for the Spirit Bomb while the others distract him. DBS would have the biggest changes since Vegeta had a role in every arc.
Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
I think a better alternative would've been Vegeta staying dead and accepting his fate, because a single day of good behavior doesn't change things, but due to his help in saving the universe King Yama puts him on "Other World probation" for five years where he gets to keepp his body but has to work for the Other World's staff and stay on good behavior. Vegeta tells Goku not to wish him back until he's cleared. Could lead to a nice reunion moment in the epilogue.
Last edited by jjgp1112 on Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
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Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
Good people can do terrible things. It doesn't necessarily make them terrible people. I wouldn't automatically assume that someone is evil because they killed hundreds of people.
Just because someone has evil within their heart does not mean that they are not good people. I think that the good in Vegeta's heart outweighs the evil in the Boo saga.Evil is within his heart. That's why he does the things he does. Even though the few white spots are significant, you can't make up for the sheer amount of evil he's done. At worst he can stop the bleeding.
He doesn't have to make up for the past to prove that he is good. His past evils do not stop him from being a good person, genocide or no. Porunga was not judging him based off of his past, only his present and his heart.
Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
MyVisionity wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:18 pmGood people can do terrible things. It doesn't necessarily make them terrible people. I wouldn't automatically assume that someone is evil because they killed hundreds of people.
Yamcha: Do you remember the spell to release him - do you know all the words?
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
Bulma: Of course! I'm not gonna pull a Frieza and screw it up!
Master Roshi: Bulma, I think Frieza failed because he wore too many clothes!
Cold World (Fanfic)
"It ain't never too late to stop bein' a bitch." - Chad Lamont Butler
Re: Toriyama's Ruthless Vegeta
Alternatively instead of Oob, Goku meets Vegeta’s 10 year old reincarnation in the epilogue (who obviously no longer remembers Goku and is now 100 hundred percent earthling). Goku takes off with Vegeta’s reincarnation to train him for a proper rematch he wanted since the end of the Saiyan arc.jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 10:14 pm I think a better alternative would've been Vegeta staying dead and accepting his fate, because a single day of good behavior doesn't change things, but due to his help in saving the universe King Yama puts him on "Other World probation." Vegeta tells Goku not to wish him back until he's cleared. Could lead to a nice reunion moment in the epilogue.